InquisitiveScouter

Agreed.

Totally agree... and I did not ask anyone to decide between anyone or anything. I merely noted observations and experiences... and I agree that all these decisions are local. However, that was not the deeper point... I'll endeavor to make the point here, after answering a few more of your charges 😜 Sure, concur... but ambition (and enthusiasm) must never be confused with ability nor achievement. And I never remarked on probability of the event. I merely noted the timeline, and asked the question... No, I sought to head it off long before that. Since you are ignorant to my circumstances, I'll enlighten you... I submitted my Eagle Scout application 11 days before my eighteenth birthday, but only at the urging of my Scouter mentors, Council Exec, and Council President. I had decided not to submit it. For a variety of reasons, including some of those I mentioned, but also, from a religious perspective. You see, during my journey as a Scout (started at 13), I became a Christian (at 17), and I was learning quite a bit in my new faith. I had reached a personal conviction that I did not deserve the Eagle rank... But, when a group of my adult mentors (including the Council Exec and the Council President) found out about this, they staged an "intervention" (if you will). They sat me down and explained that, that of the Scouts they knew, I was among the top in their regards. And that, if anyone had attained what they thought was an Eagle Scout, I had. My most treasured mentor spoke to me about law and grace... In my thinking, by the law, I was not deserving of the rank. But he asked me to see it more through a perspective of grace... in that, no matter how hard we try, we can never fully live up to the Scout Oath and the Scout Law... none of us... and if that is the case (which I know that it is), then who among us ever deserves to be afforded the honor? This is where the grace (if you will) comes in... in that we must trust in the adult leaders around us that we have reached a level (or measure) of character, citizenship, and fitness that marks an Eagle Scout. I trusted in their words and judgement, and submitted the application. I even said this in my Board of Review... and told them all about being caught "trading" merit badges as a camp staffer, and how I had seen this as disqualifying. My Board of Review chose to see it in the way my mentors did... and they awarded me Eagle rank... You read way too much into the post... Yes, I assume the same with anyone who wears an Eagle Scout rank (or any person at all, to be frank)... but I reserve any judgement until I get to know the person. You must get to know them, and see their character (and this takes time). The real measure of a Eagle Scout is not in the achievement of any requirements... it is in the realization that asking perfection of anyone (including yourself) is impossible. The real merit is in the continued striving to do so, and having the conviction to take up that mantle every day, through every failure and triumph... to keep those lofty ideals ahead of you as an aimpoint; to recognize and admit your weakness in attaining them, yet continuing to strive for the mark... I've not found that awareness or conviction in any 12 year-olds I have ever met... and in only a few 22, 32, 42, 52, 62, 72, etc .... year-olds.

Some wandering thoughts on @PACAN's question, "How does this happen?"... Well, as you know (but for the edification of others), the requirements can be completed in 19 months, with the following being the "limiting" factors... - 30 days for Tenderfoot fitness requirements - 28 days (four weeks) for Second Class fitness - 28 days (four weeks) for First Class fitness - 4 months to Star ("be active" requirement) - 6 months to Life ("be active" requirement) - 6 months to Eagle ("be active" requirement) So, give or take a day or two, 1 year and 7 months to complete in minimum time since joining. And what is the earliest one can join Scouts, BSA? "Youth can join a Scout troop who have earned the Arrow of Light rank and are at least 10 years old, or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old." Parse that out, and a youth can join Scouts (begin working on requirements) on their 10th birthday (with either Arrow of Light or 5th grade complete.) So, the earliest a youth can be awarded Eagle Scout rank is at 11 years and 7 months of age. (Can you imagine that??) The difficult part in accepting this is that we have in our minds what an Eagle Scout "ought to be." And it is highly unlikely that most under the age of around 13 or 14 are "there." (In my experience, they aren't "there" until about 15 or 16.) But there is no objective way to measure that... To quote an old mentor of mine: "If the minimums weren't good enough, they wouldn't be the minimums." The real issues in most of these cases lie in two areas: leadership and merit badges From my observations, we (collectively, the adult volunteers in Scouts, BSA) do a horrible job in teaching/crediting leadership, and in holding to the requirements for merit badges as counselors. Many Scouts hold a position of responsibility in a unit, but do little to nothing to fulfill the leadership requirement, because no one sets standards, expectations, and goals, and then holds their feet to the fire to meet those standards, expectations, and goals. From the Guide to Advancement 2021, "4.2.3.4.3 Meeting Unit Expectations. If a unit has established expectations for positions of responsibility, and if, within reason (see the note under “Rank Requirements Overview,” 4.2.3.0), based on the Scout’s personal skill set, these expectations have been met, the Scout has fulfilled the requirement. When a Scout assumes a position, something related to the desired results must happen. It is a disservice to the Scout and to the unit to reward work that has not been done. Holding a position and doing nothing, producing no results, is unacceptable. Some degree of responsibility must be practiced, taken, or accepted." Secondly, most Scouts (including me, when I was a youth) do not "earn" the merit badges. That is, Scouts commonly do not complete the requirements AS STATED (nothing more, and nothing less.) This is especially true at summer camp. There is a whole lot of pencil-whipping going on. G2A 2021: "7.0.0.3 ...Universal to all the merit badges, however, are the methods of advancement, personal growth, and adult association. Here we will focus on adult association, which is furthered through experiences involving discussion, counseling, and learning that are facilitated not only by a merit badge counselor, but also by the unit leader." How many of your Scouts were awarded merit badges from a 15 year old at summer camp, without ever having the "adult association" that is supposed to be "universal to all the merit badges" ?? And how many sat around a picnic table for four or five days and were given a badge, without having completed the requirements AS STATED??? So, like you, when I see a really young Eagle Scout, or someone with all the merit badges, I know there is an extremely high probability they did not "earn" it. If we want "better" Eagle Scouts, then we adults need to be better people to set the example for them, and hold them accountable for the requirements as stated. Is there any one of us who consistently aligns our actions with our words in the Scout Oath and Scout Law? No. But I am only responsible for my own actions, decisions, and integrity. I will try to keep my honor bright, and when I wake up tomorrow, I will try to be better than I was today. I do find that my uncompromising attitude on requirements drives a lot of adults and youth away, to find the easier path that is out there. As I tell many parents, it is easy to lie, cheat, and steal your way to getting an Eagle Scout patch. But having the patch doesn't make you a good Scout. There are a handful that become true disciples of the Scout Oath and Law... and these become really capable Scouts and leaders. Some even have Eagle Scout rank. Your thoughts?? Happy New Year

@SSScout, Hope I catch you before you fire off a note (pun intended) to BSA... Please check your notes (pun #2), and you'll note (pun #3) that 14 of the 15 bugle calls required, indeed, only four notes. Only Call to Quarters requires five (the fifth being the single low C, see link) http://www.usscouts.org/mb/bugle_calls.asp Now, it is a travesty that they dropped the requirements to play 10 of the 15. Just more signs of the times, I guess...

With this, I am in complete agreement. Thanks for finding some good common ground.

LOL, who downvotes the asking of serious questions? And that, by the way, is a rhetorical question 😜

WAGGS and WOSM are not the only organizations in the Scouting movement.

What is the right amount of global heat? What is the goal of this effort? Is it to create some kind of climate stasis? What is an "acceptable amount" of climate change? (Because, it has changed across the eons...) Whom are we to believe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6GS2HjCg-M&ab_channel=MallenBaker https://www.lobservateur.com/2023/08/20/experts-say-climate-change-is-a-hoax/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhendrickson/2012/09/16/climate-change-hoax-or-crime-of-the-century/?sh=4e2a06df76d3 https://www.prageru.com/video/is-there-really-a-climate-emergency https://www.wsj.com/articles/climate-activists-disasters-fire-storms-deaths-change-cop26-glasgow-global-warming-11635973538 I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned. - Richard Feynman

...mind-boggling and enraging.

Isn't "corroboration" up to the police investigators? And the decision on whether to press charges and pursue the case is on the DA? Victims or families do not get to decide whether to press charges. That is up to the DA. At least in our state. Not the job of BSA professionals to determine if there is "enough to go on"... Defamation (with libel and slander) involves making statements which are not true, or can be proven not true. "Truth is widely accepted as a complete defense to all defamation claims." https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation

Choosing to be offended again?? 😛

Thanks for demonstrating my point. Be the friend at the door. As the one correcting cousin Tommy, send @Ojoman a private message.

It's a balance, and a coping skill. As a survivor, I find nothing offensive in @Ojoman's post. I find the perspective very different than mine, and much more sympathetic to BSA as an organization. I am not blind to what is offensive, because, for me at least, I look for intent. I see no intent to offend in those remarks. Hence, "...even when it isn't there." Being kind works both ways.

If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for, even when it isn't there.

LOL, mine is "Loud Talker" (a reference to my "command voice"... military types will know what I mean...), maybe should be "Loud Writer", if there was such a thing... Now, why, on Earth, would he do such a thing? At the DE level, agreed. But I am of the opinion that an SE would be much more effective if they were a locally-connected person. Most funding for a council comes from local sources, right? As a local corporate entity, I am much more likely to give my money to someone with "skin in the game", as alluded to earlier...

And they have "skin in the game". Please continue with the long version.

Thanks, that's a great start. Do you believe the current model of moving folks around and pulling talent from outside of a community, especially for SE, is a prudent one for BSA? I am of the current opinion that it is not. Please convince me otherwise.

@Ojoman, thanks for the input. However, that isn't what I was fishing for... You gave great tips on how a DE can be successful. Instead, I was looking for better ideas for Councils and National to improve the professional corps. That is, councils and National are responsible for recruitment, training, retention, development, and promotion of their personnel. They arguably have not been successful at meeting these responsibilities. What would you do differently to ensure our organization has and keeps the DE's (and therefore the successive leadership levels) to make the mission of BSA happen?

So, I'd love to know, please... after being on the inside, what adjustments would you make to put the professional corps on the track you think it should be on?

Trim SE salaries to fill this gap. Will aid in retention and longer term corporate health.

- A focus on unit service. And everything viewed through that lens... - Recruit, train, and support COMMISSIONERS to implement the unit service support. This is the Unit Commissioners' purpose. But in the eight councils I have been involved with over my adult years, only one did this well, and Scouting was most successful there, of all others experienced. (But that was also in the late 80's and early 90's.) - Low cost, high impact training for unit leaders. (And encouragement/recognition for unit leaders who complete more advanced training.) I know it is hard enough to get program leaders to take Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (a misnomer, because it is about outdoor program elements, not leadership), but there should also be more advanced skills training available. Most adults I work with in Scouting have very little outdoor experience, and so they do not have confidence to take kids to the woods, nor to teach and train older youth to become outdoor-savvy instructors and leader-trainers . I encourage adults to take a merit badge at camp, Pioneering or Orienteering for example. However, most come away from that experience greatly disillusioned with the merit badge program, for a variety of reasons... Better, when offered, to take advantage of adult-friendly programs in camp like Lifeguard BSA, or Swim & Water Rescue, or Paddle Craft Safety (all great programs) I have also steered many adults toward National Camping School/Philmont Training Center/LNT & TREAD Level 2, etc, to gain additional program exposure to bring back to the unit program (few are willing to give up a whole week to do this.) - Transparency on council finances. 95% of the people I have shown our IRS 990 to are genuinely SHOCKED at the pay our Board approves for the SE. They do not see value for the money spent. Most professionals I have encountered are extremely uncomfortable talking about finances to volunteers. - Steer our district and council activities, and our local camp (including Summer Camp) to be more PATROL focused. Campsites and program offerings are set up to cater to an individual or to a unit. About the only patrol focused event we have anymore is Klondike... I'll search for a previous thread which covered this same topic... there was a lot of good stuff there from others, IIRC.

From that Atlanta article, "Eight Scout officials are believed to have participated in the false record-keeping, said Tom Gay, president of the council's board of directors." I know the articles are from 18 years ago, but in this digital age, black eyes take much longer to go away... And, you know there were more involved in both councils... just didn't get implicated in it... And other councils did the same. Think any of those folks are still left in the organization? I do. Yet another shining example for the mission of BSA, "... to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law."

I know at least three Troops in our area have notified council they will not be rechartering. Do not know their membership numbers, though. My guess is that they were somewhat small.... <=10 Several Scouts who want to continue are moving over to us. And we are getting some gear to help fill in a few of our gaps. Our attrition was normal. We had 53 on the books before recharter season... have gained 5 from Troops not rechartering already (so now at 58). (Expecting a few more in the weeks to come.) We will lose 6 who have been pretty much no-shows, 1 who is moving into multiple sports, and two (Eagle Scouts) have turned 18 this year. So, we recharter with 49 out of 58 total... that's 84.4% Not bad, but not great either. We have seen about a 10-12% attrition rate each year over the past seven years. That has been holding our numbers fairly steady. I look at differently... splitting hairs, maybe... I see 7 losses out of 51 "eligible" (not counting adults Eagles or new arrivals) that's a 13.7% attrition. Somewhat normal... Gold Level JTE metric met, which is 85% retention...

This is a fundamental truth that escapes much of the organization. Expand your net, please, to include National Service Territory and National volunteers, and professionals at all levels.

We invested in North Face Stormbreak II tents... Great for local camping and some shorter backpacking trips. But, has some drawbacks... - Footprints are extra cost (probably the same with most tents) - Vestibules are a bit small and make getting into the tent a bit of a yoga exercise - Scouts must be trained well on correct set up (this is an ongoing issue). However, once set up correctly, these can endure really bad weather and keep you dry. - Tent bag isn't big enough (nylon tents needn't be folded... just stuff them into the sack, as the fabric has no "memory" this also saves lots of time and heartache. The bags that come with the tents aren't really suited to other than near-perfect folding (a pain), and certainly not stuffing. Scouts have ripped them up in no time. After market bags (add to the expense) work great. Overall, we will not be purchasing this type of tent again. I am holding out hope for a Hilleberg one day 😜 https://hilleberg.com/eng/