Eagle94-A1

In my neck of the woods, the majority of troops DO ALLOW patrols to do their own day activities without adults. My troop has allowed patrols to meet on their own and do stuff without Scouters present. One troop is so Patrol Method oriented, that the patrols do their own service multiday service projects all without adults interfering supervising. SPOT ON!!!!!!!! Not only can most adults NOT do it, I would add that it includes those of us who should know better having grown up in the program. Gunship in my other posts is an Eagle, and he is one of the most adult oriented folks around. Helicopter parents make it even worse. Heck we had beginning to interfere last nite during instruction on lashings until the SPL politely put him in his place (what a breath of fresh air the new SPL is). And I see the future of Scouts BSA: family camping a la Cub Scouts. You already have units allowing it. Heck my unit sadly does this now. And those that are for it see BSA's FAMILY SCOUTING emphasis as an endorsement of family camping at the Scout level. My emotions are running the same gamut when I read the latest G2SS on this topic. Got worse when I did the Youth on Youth Protection Training. WOW Scouting is going downhill IMHO. Told my sons some of the stuff, i.e. no more patrol meetings without adults. Oldest is having second thoughts about staying active after earning Eagle, and may be thinking of speeding up his timeline to earn it. Middle son stated he wants to earn Eagle and get out before BSA gets worse. As for the youngest, he is the one who is the least happy with all the changes. I think he believes he is not getting the same program that his brothers had. Oldest made a comment that he may not Cross Over, or if he does won't stay around due to all the changes. National is no longer making Scouting fun. And now with the emphasis on Youth on Youth Protection, it seems as if national is making boys appear prone to verbal, physical, and sexual abuse and not worthy of being trusted out of earshot. When did BSA change it's matra from "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!"

Since my son joined the troop in 2014, we have been through 4 different neckers. First three were official BSA neckers that had been discontinued. We could not even special order them. Current one is custom made, but our source of material is gone. Apparently Uncle Sam is no longer making OD triangle bandages. :( Yes you can.

It all depends upon the camp, and even then it can depend upon the camp director or SE in charge. First two camp sI worked at were in the UK, so they don't count. ;) I wore my standard uniform with their ID badge and/or Sweatshirt. Third camp I worked at you wore your regular uniform, with the camp staff temporary patch, staff hat, and domino. Fourth camp ditto, but had special shoulder loops made, contrary to national policy. Over time they produced a custom POR patch for the staff. You had to have the green Venturing uniform, the silver loops and summer camp crew number on that shirt. Rank, knots, OA flaps, temp insignia, etc was OK. Or you could wear your regular uniform. When I went back to the second camp a few years later, you could wear your regular uniform. At that time national made a standard Camp Staff POR patch. you could wear either Boy Scout or Venturing shirt with that POR patch and silver loops, but no unit numbers. All other insignia was OK. One guy alternated between between his camp staff crew uniform and his Sea Scout uniform, which was cool to see. i was the oddball at that camp.

That was one of the reasons why I was recruited and hired. I had experience both attending camp as a participant, and as a staffer. You don't get to be an area director or camp commissioner without any experience. Plus being a staff advisor as a DE for district and assigned council events give you and advantage in planning and executing events. Agreed. Problem is for the bulk of their hiring, they try to hire from within. One reason why you saw a lot of inflated and inaccurate membership figures in the past, to get the promotions. Then they hire "experts" for other jobs and consulting. The challenge is that these experts usually have little no no experience in Scouting, whether as a youth or volunteer. And these "experts" are so specialized, they cannot see anything outside of their field. Challenge is in a corporation, who is going to be the head and ultimately influence the company: program guy or business guy? A lot of corporations that are in decline do not have a good balance between the two. At the moment, I'd say BSA's bean counters are runnging the shop.

Challenge is that we are not getting more and more high level volunteers and staff with little to know experience AS YOUTH (emphasis), making decisions on program and they do not know what they are talking about. On example I can give is my national supply division boss. She had no experience with Boy Scout summer camp, except hearing stories about it from her brother. Long story short, when I came up with the summer camp trading post schedule for the experimental program the store was in, she questioned every thing I proposed. I explained how things worked at camp, and she ignored me. Funny thing is, she asked one of my coworkers what she thought about her ideas, and my coworker told her, "How would I know, I've never been to summer camp. Ask [Eagle94-A1]. You hired him because he's been to camp before and staffed it." We did it her way that summer, and I racked up so much comp time that I never used it all before I quit. It was only after camp was over and we reviewed the sales log that I was proven correct, and things changed the second year. But that was minor compared to some of the things I am reading and hearing. BSA is hiring "experts" in various areas with no Scouting experience whatsoever. They are taking things from education and applying it to program. Sorry Scouting was never meant to be school. Or they are taking corporate management training courses, and trying to apply it to Cub Scout and Boy Scout training, and neglecting key aspects of program as a result. Take the Patrol Method for example. SM Specific dedicates 5.5 pages of syllabus and 35 minutes of time to it. THE PATROL METHOD IS THE HEART AND SOUL OF SCOUTING AND NEEDS MORE TIME THAN THAT TO EXPLAIN IT! (emphasis).

I do not reading anything at all about Webelos and AOL being two separate programs when I was doing the new program training at RTs prior to it coming out. Otherwise our LDS brethen could not earn both. I do remember that you no longer had to earn Bobcat and Webelos badge to earn AOL. Just the Bobcat badge. I personally think crossing over depend on when they are ready. I know some packs will cross over in December/January because they are chomping at the bit to become Boy Scouts. My sons' pack is like that, but we also do summer activities, so some consider us a year round pack. They also start the transition to Boy Scouts as soon as they become Webelos. Others do it at BnG because of tradition, and their Scouts have a little extra time. But key is ARE THEY READY? I've seen some Scouts cross over and are not ready for Boy Scouts. As for watering down the requirements December 1, 2016, yes they did. I mentioned the Castaway changes as I had to live with them in my house. But I know that one pack's Webelos den was not going to be able to Cross Over as a den in March, until the requirements changed. Everyone, including those whose attendance had been sporadic, was able become Boy Scouts. Sadly we lost 4 of the 9 in less than a year. As for those who join late, it depends. We had some join in 5th grade, not earn AOL, but cross over as they met the age requirement. Others "officially" are still Cub Scouts with the pack, but are doing lots of Troop visits, and working on AOL or bidding their time until they turn 11. It depends upon what the Webelos and parents want. And I agree with Parkman about February at the latest. In addition to getting both Scouts and parents comfortable with the troop prior to summer camp, it gives them a a chance to get the money for it, and possibly do fundraisers with the troop. I was under the old 3 year Cub Scout program, crossing over to Boy Scouts in May of 5th grade. Not only was my mom uncomfortable with the new troop, I had 2-3 weeks to come up with the money! So I missed out my first summer as a Scout.

35 minutes iand 5.5 pages of the syllabus is not enough. Heck I have been through a week long training on Patrol Method, and still learned things afterwards. Unless you got an old school scouter who pushes the Patrol Method at every chance they get during training. The syllabus mentions "Patrol Method" 19 times. I know one old school scouter who mentioned Patrol Method 42 times. Further you have folks who ignore it because "they know better," or "Scouting needs to change with the times." Unless you got an old school scouter who pushes the Patrol Method at every chance they get during training. Unless you really see it in action, or truly live it for an extended period of time, most adults do not get it.

@The Latin Scot, I'm still use to the June 2015 to December 2016 Cub Scout requirements. Those requirements were meant to complete 1 Adventure/month for all levels. Apparently a lot of people complained about them being more involved or harder, so National revamped all of the Cub Scout requirements in December 2016. Apparently it made them easier to do. I know the Castaway Adventure for Webelos was watereddown. Middle son had to do a week without electronics, save school related, in order to get it. But a year later when youngest earned it, that requirement was no more. Middle son was a little peeved.

I thought it was 18 months. 7 months to earn Webelos ( 1 Activity badge/month), 7 months to earn AOL (1 activity/per month), and approx.4 months added in for the tenure requirement ( which varies due to age). Webelos can work on both set of requirements simultaneously, otherwise LDS Webelos would have to make a choice: earn Webelos or AOL.

Mixed emotions on this one. I've seen great, I've seen good, and I've seen poor. I missed out my first summer, so I didn't do a FYC program. But the folks who did go had a tremendous jump start on me advancement wise. And they had a terrific FYC director and staff. He was a retired MGySgt who was firm, fair, and compasionate, But could also put you in your place if needed :) He did it for 25+ years, and when he signed off on something, the scouts truly mastered the skill. Before he passed on, he hand selected his successor, and they continued on his legacy. The program was excellent at that camp when I left. Second camp I had expereince with had issues with there FYC program. They had to many Scouts, and not enough staff. It was an awakening on how different programs can be. Third camp was mix between the two. Good director and staff, but too many Scouts for them to handle by themselves. They asked for Scouters to help out, and many were newly crossed over ex WDLs. Observing them it seemed at times like Cub Scouts, and my son who was in the group concurred. Fourth camp had major issues, and not just with the FYC program. We are not going back any time soon. Last camp did something I never encountered before: split the FYC program into 2 programs. 1/2 day is for Tenderfoot and Second Class advancement. 1/2 day is for First Class. Could not do both, only one or the other. Glad they did that too. Middle son did the First Class program, and he said they didn't do much in it. He said it was a waste of time. I hate to say it, but it is not just FYC programs. I am seeing this more and more with MB classes at summer camp, as well as MBUs. The camp that had major issues actually awarded an Eagle required MB to a Scout who dropped the class the first day to do another MB. We had Scouts "earn" canoeing or kayaking MB after 3 days, yet they spent a good bit of time on land b/c they didn;t have enough boats to take them out. When they went on the troop's canoe trip a month later, there were major issues. Even though they had "earned" the MB, they could not teach the younger Scouts any of the skills.

Problem is national is NOT discouraging it IMHO. As has been posted on several other threads by others, BSA does NOT provide adequate information or training on the Patrol Method. I beleive Hawken and Latin Scot both commented on the lack of information on the Patrol Method and Boy Scouts while they served as Webelos Den Leaders. I admit I have not gone through the current online training. But from what I am hearing and seeing, Cub Scouts and their parents and leaders for the most are not prepared for Boy Scouts. The few units I see that truly prepare their Webelos are those that either have old school Scouters as WDLs and CMs, those who went through the program in which they were transitioned, or have WDLs trained by old school Scouters. And I do not see the term "Family Scouting" for coed Scouting helping. Far from it. I am seeing my troop encouraging the family concept, to the point that parents and siblings are camping and attending meetings in my troop. All under the rubic of "Family Scouting."

Another concern would be for those who need to revise their vacation from work to go. I know where I work at, I gotta plan at least 6 months out. And then I have to see if anyone with longer tenure doesn't have the dates already. It's been 4 years since I had the entire week of summer camp off.

Ok I admit it. When I was a trainer, I said the ideal position of a SM was sitting in his camp chair drinking coffee, or for our LDS brethen hot cocoa. But after experiencing "Coffee from the hammock" as Shug Emery suggests, I will go with your idea, but with coffee.

Sadly effective October 1, 2019, the Patrol Method will be no more. They can no longer do any activities,i.e. meetings, day hikes, grocery shopping, service projects, etc by themselves. They will need 2 registered adults over 21. In essence the Patrol Method is being replaced by Cub Scout dens.😡

I wish more folks would realize this. We had a sibling at the meeting last nite running around and distracting folks with their soccer ball. Parents were no where in site.

I bolded that because it is spot on. Either National is screwing up royally, is preparing for coed patrols. I have a feeling it is to prepare for coed patrols. Otherwise why do 18-20 year olds not count for YP purposes? And I agree with you. I remember doing hikes as a patrol. I remember patrol meetings without adults. I remember doing my Eagle Project on my own with my fellow Scouts (OK mom was there b/c she drove me, and had snacks for us as we did the project. But she was not registered, and she stayed with the car). After October 1st, the Patrol Method as had been preached and practiced since 1907, an din the US since 1910, is effectively no more. I am really hating "Family Scouting."

Again, mixed emotions. My district has one troop that would be considered a "Scoutreach" unit elsewhere. The CO views Scouting not only as an outreach ministry, but also as a community service. The CO is in a rough part of town, and a lot of their Scouts are from the area. They got a great and active program for working with their Scouts, but it comes with a price. One is that they are limited to the number of Scouts they can take aboard. Another is that they rely on 18- 20 year olds to meet the 2 deep leadership as some of their ASMs have health issues and cannot do overnight activities. A third is that they will no longer be able to do patrol activities without adults 21+ being present. Not only the cost of Scouting, but the number of Scouters affects the number they can have max. And I have a feeling the number will be going down come October 1st when patrols are no longer able to do activities on their own and 18 to 20 year olds do not count towards YP standards. Yes they are heavily dependant on the Patrol Method and using their young ASMs who came up from the program. I see two community service projects, Memorial Day Weekend and Salvation Army Bell Ringing, being cancelled because they do these as patrols.

I cannot emphasis Peri enough DO NOT LET NEW SCOUTERS NEAR FIRST YEAR CAMPERS! @69RoadRunner may have been one of the VERY few exceptions. But they are rare and far between. First year Scouters are still in CS leader mode and tend to treat the Scouts as such.

Mixed emotions on Scoutreach programs. I've seen some very successful, and some that were non existant. One key ingrediant with successful Scoutreach programs: either a dedicated, program oriented parapro or volunteer driving the program. I started one such unit and it was successful. However when the SM left, it folded. Good friend of mine was a parapro working 4 units. Do not know how he did it, but they were awesome. But again when he left, those units folded.

If you are the individual who was removed, yes council will tell you. IH and COR will only know via a letter, unit leaders will not know, and, believe it or not, the DE may not even know. When I became a DE and moved into my district, we had a long time Scouter have his membership revoked. All I was told was that if he shows up to any Scouting event, unit, district, or council, I was to call the SE immediately, and be ready to call the police if so instructed. Nothing else was mentioned to me. When he went through BSA's appeals process and lost, he sued, and was temporarily reinstated by the judge until the court case was over. I was not informed about the court case nor that he was reinstated! (emphasis) When he shows up to RT in uniform, I followed the instructions given tot me: call the SE and prepare to call the police. It was when I called the SE that I was informed that he was reinstated and to do nothing else. Still nothing was told to me why this long-time, DAM and SB Scouter who served on district and council levels was removed. All I know for sure was what was printed in the local paper about the course case and why he lost. To this day, I do not know anything else for sure, although there was a lot of rumors and speculation on the matter. On a side note, I am still persona non grata with that unit and CO because I was the DE when he lost the case. This despite the fact that I had nothing to do with it, was not informed of anything except what I stated above, nor was I involved with the court case.

Honor Guard patch is relatively new, within the past 2 years if memory serves. Looking at the uniforms in the photo, I'd say taken around 2009 or 2010, before the patch. If you look all four have the red loops, and definitely 2 are wearing ODL shirts. Also 2 are wearing Gen 1 Switchbacks, and 1 is wearing Gen 3 ODL pants. Only wear is wearing any CU items, specifically the canvas Switchbacks.

One of the reasons why BSA is promoting coed, it is already happening.

Why is the pack waiting until they are in 5th grade to prepare Crossing Over into Boy Scouts? WeBeLoS stands for 'We'll Be Loyal Scouts, and they should begin preparing for Boy Scouts as soon as they become a Webelos, not waiting until after they earn the Webelos Badge. The dens and packs that I have seen with good retention rates of Crossovers staying in Scouting, are those that prepare the Cub Scouts as soon as they become Webelos, and sometimes sooner. So I love the 18 month Webelos/AOL program when it is done properly because it works better than the old 3 year program that I went through back in the day.

I am not a fan of them. But them again I'm am biased. I like simple "plain Jane" dress uniforms without all the pogey cords, lanyards, ascots, chrome domes, etc. But that is me. We have two groups locally providing honor guard services. Neither one wears leggings. One wears red berets with the Honor Guard patch on them. They use the white flag belts and gloves like the group above. The other group does not wear covers ( which I wish they did), and wear the black flag belts. Personally I think the black flag belts look a lot better with the BSA's field uniform than the white. Plus they hide any dirt easier ;)

Jacshirts are no longer allowed to have patches on them, except a few specific ones in specific spots.