Twocubdad

We've got OA elections this week. Usually we do OA elections just before crossover, so this is a new problem. As you may know, to be elected to the OA there must be 50% of the Scouts in attendance and a nominee must receive 50% of the vote. (Okay, that's close -- you OA guys can fine tune the rules for me, but I think that's about it.) The issue is we have 25 new Scouts who really haven't had time to get to know the Scouts up for election to the Order. What advice/instructions would you give these new guys? The way the elections are structured, if we suggest to the new guys they abstain, it counts as an "against" vote. I really hate telling the boy "just vote for everyone," although personally I'm comfortable that all the boys on the ballot are deserving of election to the Order. Is it fair to suggest the Troop Guides give the new guys advice?

I'll agree with adams that the broad intent of the requirement is to encourage scouts to attend "real" day camp or resident camp. Now, if the Klondike is all your district offers, or if there are other compelling reasons a Scout couldn't attend day camp, I would probably let it slide. Schedule shouldn't be an issue. Just because day camp is after school is out doesn't mean the boys can count camp toward the Tiger activity award. If they are run right, summer camp should be the highlight of the year. If you do the math, a boy gets more scouting in a week a day camp than he does in his den the rest of the year. Leaders should use every arrow in their quiver to get boys to attend. If the activity award is the carrot (or stick?) the scout needs to attend, use it! Technically, Eagle92, we can split this hair a couple more times. If you want to use national standards and accreditation as the trip wire for the requirement, then you need to ask if mrssand's Klondike was accredited. If that's not split thinly enough, the event should have properly been accredited as a Concil-organized Family Camp, which is a separate level of accreditation and has it own set of national standards (BSA #430-408). In all honesty, if your council is accrediting it's cub weekends as either a day camp or a resident camp, that's more than most and your folks get a big attaboy for the effort. (Apologies to the rest of you for the techno-babble amongst us camp school geeks.)(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Yeah, I missed that, K. This guys is wrapped around the axle way too tight. Whose business is it what people sleep in? And how would you know without violating privacy? Believe me when I tell you not to peek in my tent. There's "Camp" and there's "Campsite." Campsite is our dorm room for the week or weekend. If you're butt-nekkid, you need to be in the tent with the flaps closed. But if you're just changing into your uniform shirt and pants for dinner, who cares? We're much more relaxed in the campsite than the camp. The camp has all the rules about shirts, shoes, hats in the dining hall, etc. I personally think the "no open-toe shoes" thing is silly. A couple years ago when Crocs became popular, it was upgraded to "closed-toe, closed-heel." Pure adult power trip. World Jamboree was and education for me. The site was a fairly well-groomed grassy field. Most roads were paved or very well compacted ground. Consequently, most kids running around were wearing sandals, flip-flops or barefoot. You could always spot the Americans wearing 8-pound boots better suited for a summit attempt on K2.

My suggestion would be that this is not something which needs to be legislated by the troop committee. The leaders on the ground (youth and adult) are fully capable of dealing with this as needed. I would be more concerned with the direction this is setting for the committee micro-managing the troop. Personally, I don't care to have guys hanging around the campsite without shirts and will ask them to put on a shirt if they are sitting around for an extended time. But getting dressed, going to the waterfront, heading to the shower, etc., is no big deal. The situation you described is pretty ticky-tack.

Interesting conversation thusfar. Thank you. If probation were as you describe, Calico, I, too, would have a problem with it. In five years I can think of three boys who have been placed on probation. In two cases, the probationary period followed a period of suspension. In every case the Scout was given a letter explaining the suspension and probation, with definite end dates for each. So I don't think we're shying away from dealing with the behaviors head-on. The problem has been the letters just said "you'll be on probation until (date)" but we've never really explained what that means. My current situation is that a boy who was on probation turned around and did something similar, so now he's been suspended and will, again, be on probation when he returns. Rather than criminal probation, I'm thinking more in terms of academic probation. "You've got a semester to improve your grades or your out." I've never had a Scout suspended or placed on probation that hasn't had a string of mis-behaviors or attitude issues leading up to the final straw. The mis-behaviors played out over a period of time and it seems reasonable that a Scout demonstrate good behaviors over a period of time. Our standard is to live the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday life. It takes time to demonstrate that -- either good or bad.

Time to call a meeting of the Association of Scout Scholars, Hacks, Oracles, Lawyers and Elitists How do you define Suspension and Probation? Suspension seems pretty clear -- not permitted to participate in Scout functions. Even the goofball daffynition of "Active" allows that a Scout must not be under suspension from the unit for discipliary reasons. But if a Scout is suspended from the troop, does that suspension affect his participation in his Jamboree troop or Philmont crew? How about service as a Den Chief. What about Scouts who have dual registration with a Venture Crew? But what about probation? Is probation even a legitimate concept within a unit? I take it to mean, "if you do anything else bad then you're REALLY going to be in trouble." But can we be more precise? Probation may mean restrictions on participation like no campouts or a parent must attend campouts. Can a Scout continue to complete requirements while on probation? Can he advance? Can he hold positions of responsibility? I suppose it could be a mix, depending on the situation. If a kid is on probation for something rather serious, but then does something fairly minor, how do you then judge the minor act? Can a single straw break the camel's back? Part of my interest is as a Scoutmaster looking at advancement and the Scout Spirit. If a boy is suspended for a fairly gross violation of the Oath or Law, returns to the troop and fairly quickly requests a Scoutmaster conference and/or Board of Review to advance, how do you fairly judge Scout Spirit? Personally, I would like to see a little distance between the bad behavior and evaluating the boy's adherence to the Oath and Law. But I would also like some objective guidance from the troop committee. Thoughts? As an example, let's agree a kid has done something for which a one -month suspension from the troop is warranted.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I've refrained from commenting on this as I've had a hard following, and maybe the number and complexity of the district's problems is the key factor. Unless you just like turmoil and politics, I'd punt. Tell the district committee (who ever the heck that may be) thanks but no thanks. Our district is nowhere near as screwed up as yours seems to be. I "played the game" for a long time and finally realized the turmoil and politics have little to do with Scouting. I am now perfectly content to serve the boys in my troop and provide them with the best program I can. I don't need the rest of the garbage. If you enjoy serving Scouting as a trainer, by all means stick with that. But that does not require membership on the district committee and it sure doesn't require taking on all these other problems. Life is too short. Time to do what you enjoy is too short. Don't waste your time on that committee.

Good call. Just way too many problems to try to solve here. Call your council and look for -- or start! -- another unit for your son and the others who are interested in a real Scouting program. For what it's worth, Webelos can and should camp with the Boy Scout troop. Attending a Boy Scout outdoor activity is a requirement for Arrow of Light. But the ways in which your troop and pack are co-mingled is highly inappropriate.

What, exactly, does restricted mean? Isn't the restriction placed on the Scout Shop? Can you reference some BSA document which prohibits me from selling Eagle, Philmont arrowhead and other rank and merit badges? I think the ethics of wearing and perporting to have earned an award is separate from buying, selling and owning them. If someone wants to collect all the variations of Eagle awards or Silver critters, I don't see how it lessens the value of having earned one. I choose not to be offended.

Your husband is right. Quit.

They're still over thinking this. If we're trying to stop OGE's Emus (is it just emus or are kiwis a problem too?) from buying uniforms are we going to do a records check everyone buying uniform parts, too? It isn't unreasonable for the clerk to remind everyone buying rank badges for an advancement report. But neither is it unreasonable for a parent to buy duplicate badges for new or additional uniforms. But I suppose a reasonable, adult approach to things is asking too much.

Hi, KJ, Everyone is trying to be polite and tip-toe around the elephant in the room, so I'll write what everyone is thinking. The trip you described violates the guidlines for age appropriate activities for Cubs in mutiple ways. First, only packs go camping, not individual dens. Horseback riding is an issue as is canoeing. Use of the golf cart could be if the boy were allowed to use it (although it sounds like they were not). There are specific requirements for each. As has been suggested, you and the other leaders really need training to understand the policy. I know you didn't ask, but consider this a BOGO sale on advice. As to your Scout, let me present this as a question to the group: Is Scouting -- especially Cub Scouting -- really the best place for this kid to get the help he needs? Although a great over simplification, I agree this little fellow needs some strong influences in his life. Individual attention, a strong male role model and consistent, firm discipline are all needed. Are we really set up for that? Granted, the male role model is one of our strong suits, but not, apparently, in KJ's den. Individual attention? With 8 other kids in tow? Hmmm. And discipline? As is being discussed in other threads, Scout leaders are rather limited in our options for meteing out punishment to Scouts. Personally, I think this kid is suffering from a vitamin BL defficiency -- as in Belt Leather -- which needs to be applied regularly to his backside. But as Scout leaders, raising the level of discomfort to make the kid care isn't our job. In fact, there is a fairly low threshold at which we are precluded from that. About all we can do is remove the kid from the activity or make him sit out. And it sounds like this kid is pretty good at shrugging off that sort sort of thing. You're right, KJ, this is a power struggle, and the boy is winning. I've had Scouts like this in the pack and troop over the years. Several times different leaders do try to take them under their wing. But especially in Cubs, leaders are trying to deal with their own son(s) and their responsibilities to the den or pack. Trying to provide individual attention to another kid is tough. As KJ suggest, it would sure be nice if one of the other dads would step up, but I've not seen that happen. My experience is that the folks interested in working with other peoples' sons are the ones who raised their hand when the pack needed volunteers. In the few situations I've watched where Scout leaders have taken on boys like this, the relationship has been very hard to maintain over time. The biggest obstacle has been the parent. Staying with Scouting is tough without supportive parents. A harried, single mom, often sees Scouting as a break from the kid, not a time to get involved. But maybe that one year in Cub Scouts is enough? Maybe 20 years from now the boy remembers his couple Cub Scout campouts sitting around a campfire with Mr. (or Mrs.) Smith as something that made a difference. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

The same. Eating with the adults is turning in to a pretty good perq for the SPL. He also has the option of where he camps. One of the adults has been know to pitch or strike the SPL's tent and help with his gear when he's off tending to the patrols.

Really? I think I can remember an episode or two of Sesame Street where Elmo was in a Cub Scout uniform, but I didn't think it was really a big deal. I mean, I imagine Elmo has his own following -- I'm more of a Grover fan myself -- but it's hard to imagine folks are so specialized as to want to dress up like Elmo as a Scout. Learn something everyday....

Yes, night before last, as a matter of fact. My experience is that boys go through the "I hate Scouts" phase around the 7th grade. That's the time boys really start to figure out who they are and what they want to do. There is a tremendous amount of peer pressure to be one of the cool kids. Most boys would eat broken glass before admitting they're in Scouts. My advice to parents it to push the boys along for a year. Parents are still responsble to make -- and I mean MAKE -- their sons do what they (the parents) think is best for them. Yes, baccus, the same as with school, church, going to bed on time, eating their veggies and brushing their teeth. But let's keep this in perspecive. Scouting isn't school. For one, I know of no state with compulsory Scouting laws. I tell parents that after a year of pushing a kid to go to Scouts, it time to step back reassess. After a year, we're just making the boy, the parents and the Scout leaders miserable. If Scouting isn't that boy's thing, move on and find something else. And no, I'm not going to change the program to accommdate that one boy. If we are running the program as it should (and in that I consider stuff like hazing) and I have 60 others who are thriving and enjoying the program, why would we change?

That's exactly right. I don't see kids doing a significantly larger number of activities than 30 years ago, the difference is the depth of the activities they are involved in the the time required. When I think back through the things I did in high school, my sons, now in the 9th and 11th grades, are actually doing less. In the day, we were allowed to dabble in activities. No more. My older son was asked by his English teacher to please join the school's mock trial team. They were short-handed and only wanted someone to come to practice and serve as time keeper. He has ZERO interest in a legal career and even less interest in mock trial. But the teacher is a favorite of his so he agreed as a favor to the teacher. Cutting to the chase, after two months with this tar baby, he had to prepare for four different speaking parts and was putting 12-15 hours a week into this. And is wasn't as if he fell in love with mock trial and wanted to put that time into it, he basically got steam rolled and didn't want to back out on the teacher. We drew the line when they tried to schedule a practice 9AM SUNDAY MORNING. My other son is a very good drummer and wanted to play in the school marching band. To be in the band NEXT FALL, you have to attend 2.5-hour, twice-weekly after school practices BEGINNING NOW. The band will practice a half-day every week through the summer. All band members are REQUIRED to attend two weeks of band camp in the summer. NO EXCEPTIONS. When school starts in the fall, the 2.5 hour after school rehersals go to three days a week. All this is on top of band meeting as a regular class during the school day. While I would love to see my son persue his drumming, he's decided to drop band next year. Of course band camp is the last week of July and the first of week of August -- the same as National Jamboree. The band director game him an either/or choice and he chose jamboree. That he registered for jamboree 18 months ago and we've paid-in almost $2000 in probably-unrefundable fees, doesn't matter. I played trumpet in my high school band. Somehow our band maintained a decades-long string of Superior contest scores rehersing our one-hour a day during our band class time. And it's not just my kids. I've not seen one boy in the troop since early November. He's on the school's robotics team. They meet 30 HOURS A WEEK! Four hours after school every day, all day on Saturday and Sunday afternoon. Somehow, the standard has become the Olympic gymnast who gets to the gym at 3:00 for a four-hour workout before school. I don't know where the motivation for that lies. Must everything be a 24/7 eat/sleep/drink obsession? While I agree with John in KC that every meeting is another brick in the wall, Scouting doesn't put these sorts of demands on people. My son is SPL and spends maybe three hours a week on Scouts -- more the week of PLC. "Monthly" campouts are really about 8 times a years. And when people raise hell about troops setting attendance requirements, most troops "require" attendance in the ballpark of half to two-thirds. Show up for half the band practices and see where it gets you. Sorry for the rant. This is a real sore spot for me.

Tempest in a teacup. Is there really an issue of people buying unearned rank badges and falsely passing themselves off as Second Class Scouts? Okay, maybe Eagle. But if you're lying about being an Eagle on your resume or a job application, having the patch isn't going to make much difference. I will grant E92's exception for the Nu'orlens scout shop. I don't understand why Scout Shop folks really care. The big down side is that units purchasing badges without properly reporting advancement are only going to screw up their boys' records. Which is not really going to be a big deal until the unit's Quality Unit numbers come up short or when a Scout applies for Eagle. Our Scout Shop is pretty tight about requiring advancement reports. But I've gone in any number of times and told the scout shop I need extra badges for odd projects and haven't had any problem. I simply explain what I'm doing and it's not an issue. Of course I'm pretty well known at the shop. Exibar, have you shown the shop folks your son's advancement card? I would think that would be the gold standard. I was in the shop a few years ago when a 20-something guy walked in and said he wanted to replace his Eagle medal which had gone missing. The lady told him they were restricted and she needed some proof he is an Eagle. The kid wipped out the Eagle pocket card and he was set.

One of the responsibilities of a board of review is to satisfy itself that the young man has completed the requirements. Without creating a retest, one of the best ways to do this is to engage the Scout in a conversation about the details of how he completed the requirement. One of the things I'm trying to change in our troop is the idea that this requirement is met the one and only time a Scout cooks for the patrol. One of the drawbacks of the First-Year-First-Class program is there aren't that many opportunities for every Scout to serve as patrol cook. The first couple campouts are generally heavy on instruction from the Troop Guides, another couple campouts are focused on Second Class requirement. That leaves just enough campouts for everone in the patrol to have one campout each to serve as cook. (I will allow we sometimes divide patrols and have two cooks on a campout.) I would much prefer a situation where the boys gain experience cooking, get a few different recipies under their belts, find some dishes their patrol likes and they are good at, THEN complete the requirement as the culmination of the learning process. Another reason to make Cooking MB required again.

Why don't you ask them to go find their parent? Or if the kid is just sitting around the fire behaving himself, let him be? Several years ago the rules were more clear and made better sense, Reaper. I don't know why they changed. Basically, the policy was what Scoutnut and Beaver outlined. The one other stipulation was that the tour leader (who that is is up to local interpretation) was not permitted to be responsible for Scouts other than his own children. Two good reason for that, 1) the leader has enough to do without loading up with other peoples' kids, and 2) it prevented folks from skirting the other rules regarding campout leadership and organization. I always appreciated having an out when people asked me to be responsible for their kid. Blender made a good point too. We our "guardianship" permission slip had to be signed by the parent, the person taking responsiblility for the boy and the tour leader. So everyone was clear about who was responsible for whom. We learned that lesson the hard way.

Earned Fishing, Nature, Conservation and Basketry my first year at summer camp. Overall, I can't really say which was my favorite, but Hiking was certainly most memorable. Over the summer, a bunch of the guys and I hiked all over. Our moms would drive us 10 miles out into the country, drop us off and we'd walk home. Lots of good stories from those hikes, not all I'd care to share with the Scouts!

The real answer is it should be handled based on the council's previously-published policy. But if that were the case, there would be no discussion. To me it would depend on the nature and purpose of the fundraising. Say the troop is raising a relatively small amount of money for the general fund with things like car washes and donut sales. The idea is to pay for little "extras" like ice cream, watermelons, custom patches and the like. This shouldn't be a big deal. You missed the car wash, I came late for the donut sale, ho-hum. The money should stay with the jamboree troop. On the other hand, if the fundraisers require more individual effort with the purpose of offsetting a significant part of the cost of the trip for individual scouts, money raised should be treated as if it were a payment made by the Scout. This could be real money. It the Scout drops, it should be subject to the refund policy, the same as fees paid by the Scout. This year will be my older son's third jamboree. None of the troops have ever done any fundraising. The first two troop asked for an extra $100 or so on top of the fee to the council. For the most part, this bought a standard kit of extras -- troop patches, shirts, hats, neckers, etc. -- and gave the leaders a little petty cash to spend on the boys as they saw fit. This year the troop hasn't asked for any money, but isn't providing any extras, either. As part of the Council package they get two troop t-shirts, a hat and three sets of jamboree shoulder strips and unit numbers. You can order -- and pay -- for extras, if you like. On the one hand, I rather appreciate the frgality, but I also wonder if some of the boys will miss an opportunity to trade stuff with the people they meet.

Who was it who said, "it's hard to fix stupid." "Popcorn prizes are awarded based on money turned-in." "A Scouts has to be voted into the OA by a majority of the troop." "Patrol Leaders and Senior Patrol Leader are elected by the Scouts." I will guarantee everyone of those statements was explained mutiple times. It's not that parents don't know or can't understand this stuff, they don't want to understand because they're P.O.-ed at the results. Your popcorn mom was embarrassed her son wasn't going to be recognized because SHE didn't push to get the money in on time and was looking to deflect her lapse onto the pack. Otherwise, once you explained the policy to her, she would have calmed down and taken her seat. I had a Scout move to another troop because he wasn't elected SPL. Of course he waited three months until his parents could gin up another excuse that looked better. He ultimately became SPL of the new troop, but probably six months or a year later than he would have been SPL in our troop. This sort of stuff isn't about a lack of information, it's about people being childish and wanting their way all the time. You're not going to fix it with a manual.

I have a collection of all the National Jamboree patches (and a couple from World). Everything from 1957 forward is in mint condition. About 10 years ago I mounted them in a frame by drilling through a piece of artboard and catching each patch with one or two stitches just in the edge of the border. I think this is fine, it's not as if the patches have been sewn on a uniform. The problem with this method is that I can't move the patches. All I can do with the newest patches for the past three jambos is stick them inside the edge of the frame. I'll like to come up with a better system. Does anyone know how to mount the patches which will still keep them in a mint condition? My primary concern is not to do anything which will damage the patches. I don't want to use any kind of adhesive on them, which could damage them and lessen the value. If the system I have is the best I can do, I suppose once ever three jamborees I can afford to re-do the display. But before I do, does anyone have any suggestions?

Alright, fish! Now you're on to something. I think a concise parent's guide for each program would be an excellent idea. We often tell parents their best resource was their son's handbook, but adults should be given a guide written more from their perspective and heavier on the mission, methods and philosophical basis of Scouting. I always thought that all parents should take Cub Scout Committee position-specific training or the SM/ASM position specific. You've enrolled your son in a program which is going to envolve potentially hundreds of hours a year for 10 years -- you would think parents would want to invest one day to learn more about the program. Actually, our troop's sort of fallen into this. Several years ago we began doing a 90 minute class for the Webelos parents during the Webelos campout in the fall. The whole session is organized around the eight methods, plus a ninth section, "Troop Business" which covers stuff like dues. It's not all theoretical. For example, under the Outdoor Program we go over the gear new Scouts will need and suggestions for saving money on it. We had a syllabus/scripted for the presenters which one of the parents noticed and asked for a copy. The next year, we fleshed out the outline and now give copies to all the new parents. It's now included as part of the troop handbook. (If anyone wants a copy, PM me with a real email address.) Don't expect, however, that something like this will avoid the problems such as with your popcorn salesman's mom. If your including stuff at that level of detail you've way over-shot your target. No one will read it.

If this is going to court next week, I'm not sure why you're posting here. These things should have been decided with your attorney months ago. You should be discussing this with him or her. Sounds like this ceased to be an issue for Scouters to discuss some time ago. And for the same reason I would assume the Council leadership has been instructed by their attorney to have no contact with you. If there is any settlement to be made -- even if your son is clearly owed the $300 -- it will be handled through the attorneys.