Twocubdad

We did the same thing, but we didn't call it crossover. It was usually held at the May pack campout. All the boys moved up a grade and were presented the neckerchief for the next year. One thing we did I though was cool was since the rising Webelos IIs didn't need a new necker, the were given a scout nametag which was something special for those guys.

Uhhmm, if there are such problems with implementation of the program, doesn't that suggst there may be problems with the program itself? After, what, 40 years with few changes, I think there are things which have grown up around the program which aren't necessarily written into the program. The incredible emphasis on crossover and Arrow of Light, for instance. Many packs make a huge deal, spare no expense, to make sure everyone knows the Webelos IIs have completed Cub Scouts. Guess what, approximately half the boys take us at our word and finish their scouting careers at the end of Webelos. And why not? We give them the perfect exit point. Several years ago there was a special edition of Sports Illustrated all about youth sports. One of the articles was about the development of young athletes -- sort of an "ages and stages" article. What really interested me from the article is that around age 11 boys develop the ability to objectively evaluate their own performance. At age 8, a kid can wiff every ball pitched to him but still be convinced he'll play for the Yankees some day. Around age 11 that kid will come to the self-realization he really isn't any good at baseball. As a result, kids begin to specialize. Up until that time kids generally will try anything -- especially when they have parents intent on making sure Little Precious is never denied a thing. Around 11 they focus on those activities they really enjoy and in which they excel. We bemoan loosing boys to sports. But if you think about it, we're generally loosing the kids who are good at sports to sports. So at about the time boys are beginning to make their own assessment of what activities they enjoy and are good at, we provide the marginal boys the perfect exit strategy from scouting -- a huge graduation ceremony. If I were going make changes to the program, I would look at some way of making the move from Webelos more seamless, like the transition from Cubs to Webelos. Assuming the SI theory is correct, I would restructure the program so the time when boys are already picking and choosing things for themselves doesn't correspond with the one big break in the scouting program. Another problem I think has grown up somewhat organically in many packs is den leaders joining with their sons as Tigers and tracking along with them through Webelos II. As much as anything, this contributes to leader burnout after four or five years. Back in my day, packs had a handful of Cub dens and one Webelos den. On your 10th birthday you moved to the Webelos den. There was a significant social difference between Cubs and Webelos. The cub dens were led by den mothers and met after school at someone's house. The Webelos den was led by a couple dad and met at the scout hut. We often met for activities on Saturdays. I'm not suggesting that the Leave It To Beaver sexism was an improvement, but there was an idea that Webelos was a grade up and more of a "guy thing." Today, with the den leaders tracking along with the boys for five years, the biggest change between Cubs and Webelos is the hat and neckerchief. Den leaders tend to find a grove that works for them and stick with it. I know as a Cubmaster, it was a constant struggle to convince a den leader that after three years in the program they needed to be retrained. Consequently, they tended to run Webelos like cub dens. Two areas where this show up is camping and advancement. I don't know of many Webelos dens which camp as a den. I'll admit that in my time as a WDL I never took our den on den-only campout. But with two big pack campouts, a spring and fall district Webelos campout, resident camp, day camp and (for Webelos IIs) campouts with a couple different Boy Scout troops, I felt like we were doing enough. In retrospect, I would blow off a couple of those for the experience of having the den camp together. The fourth-year den leaders also run Webelos advancement the same as with cubs. There is no such thing as individual initiative. Everyone works on activity pins together and everyone earns them. The proof is in the numbers of boys receiving Arrow of Light. In our brother pack, it is rare to attend a crossover where one of the boys DOSEN'T receive the AoL. Frankly, I don't know how much that affects transition and retention, but it sure creates a problem for the scout troop. Boys -- and mostly parents -- come into the troop with the expectation of racking up a merit badge every month. I spend a lot of time trying to re-direct that energy into more appropriate areas. Of course that's just my observation of the small part of the elephant I'm holding. I know there are a lot packs that do things differently and I love to hear how their results differ. Solutions? Perhaps something to encourage packs to treat Webelos as more of a special program and to encourage specialized Webelos den leaders who stick with that program. If national wanted to make a really bold move, perhaps Webelos could be made a separate unit. Or attached to Boy Scout troops instead of Cub Scout packs.

Buffalo, of course the overall quality of the Webelos program has a lot to do with crossover and retention rates. But looking at this from the troop's point of view, our opportunity to make an impact is with the Webelos-to-Scouts transition program. We've always hosted a fall campout with the Webelos IIs, but three years ago we really took it up a notch. The whole weekend is built around the Webelos. The Boy Scout patrols do all the cooking for the Webelos and the program is a round robin of scouting activities. One of the big things we do is an intense training session with the parents. I think it's paying off. Over the past two years only one Scout dropped out after only a month or so. And he was a kid who had decided not to join the troop, but we convinced him to give it a try. We had one boy transfer to another troop after about six months -- a really bad personality fit.

Our troop has a series of wooden name boards which hang in the front of the meeting hall organized by rank. I think a lot of troops do something similar. I don't know why, but we tend to save the old boards thinking we may recycle them one day. It's created an interesting archive. Getting ready for the new crop of crossover scouts, I was sorting through the old board and learned the following: In the 4.5 years I've been Scoutmaster (I started doing the boards when I took over) we've had a total of 80 Scouts in the troop: 40 (50%) are still active 13 (16%) aged out as Eagle Scouts 10 (13.5%) never kicked in, that is, registered but quit within a month or two 8 (10%) were at one time active but dropped 5 (6%) transferred to other troops and, to my knowledge are still active 4 (5%) aged out as Life Scouts, confirming my belief this is the most rare category of all The head scratcher for me are the 10 boys who never really engaged, even after full careers as Cubs. I think all but one earned their Arrow of Light. I break them out separately because I don't feel they really gave the program a fair shot (at least compared to the next 8, some of whom dropped after several years). At least three of them never attended a single meeting. A couple were talked into joining either by me or their parents and really weren't interested in the first place. Two were hard-core jocks and quit as soon as baseball cranked up in the spring. No real point to make, just stuff to make you go Hmmmmmm....

Yeah, what Beav said. If your best case is based on advancement, I'd say you're splitting some rather fine hairs. If a boy participates in the activities and meetings of the unit -- however the unit conducts those meetings -- he's met that requirement. (And to the rest of you, no, let's not even go there.) Now if the Scoutmaster blows off the requirement to serve in a position of responsibility because the troop only has a senior patrol leader, then I think you have a legitimate complaint.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

We made them several years ago as a Webelos II craftsman project. Yeah, it was pretty intense for webs, but I made several can cutters and jigs to make it easier for the younger guys. The stoves are really cool to build and see work. I would strongly advise against using them for much more than a demonstration, however. Basically they are an open cup of burning alcohol. No sealed containers, no controls, no off switch. If someone kicks it over you have a BIG problem. Of course alcohol fires can be especially nasty. In the daylight, it's difficult to tell if the stove is lit or not. Besides the stove, you also have to jury rig a pot stand. Adre outlined the operational problems pretty well. While it's a really cool project, they're not at all practical to use and I would say fairly dangerous. I would put them in the category of a survival skill that's good to know if you are ever in a survival situation, but not worth the risks otherwise.

Crossover is simply a traditional ceremony used by many packs and troops. It doesn't do anything to change a boy's status in the program. Boys may continue on in Webelos until age 11.5. If your two scouts wish to continue and complete their Arrow of Light award, I would sure hope the pack leaders would honor their wishes.

Like it or not, they're here. According to a guy at region, three councils each have been approved for ATVs and PWCs. In our region, East Carolina and Blue Ridge Mountain both have the PWC pilot programs. Mecklenburg County Council is testing the ATVs at Camp Grimes. I don't recall where the others went. My understanding is that both programs are for a two year test before the Innovations Council makes a recommendations one way or the other. According to our program director, the RFP for the programs was pretty tough. The programs have to meet federal, state, BSA and manufactures requirements for usage. Here that would mean the boys would have to have (or earn) state operators license for both programs. National was also looking hard at facilities. For the ATVs they wanted a dedicated training area and existing riding trails separate from hiking trails at the camp. For the PWCs they wanted private lakes large enough to run the PWCs separate from the other aquatics programs. And, of course, there was the financial commitment to buy the toys -- ballpark $50,000.

Presumably you're cooking for the adults (patrols cook for themselves, right?) so I don't think two cups of wine, cooked down, then split by 8 adults is a big hairy deal. To my thinking, the issue would be hauling a bottle of wine or beer with you prior to cooking. Could you reduce the wine at home and put it a plain container? Then it's just a "secret ingredient." That's not to suggest that putting burbon in a Nalgene makes it okay for the adults to do shots around the campfire. Cooking with wine or beer is innocent enough, but you need to avoid the appearance that something more is going on. Of course my first choice would be for you to adapt you recipies and avoid the problem all together.

Wasn't your troop in an episode of King of the Hill? You remember, the one where Hank and a new neighbor form a troop, but the other guy insists on "camping" indoors? Of course, Hank, Dale, Bill and Boomhauer came to the rescue in the end. Yep.

Congratulations! I would take that to mean that they intend for you to take the various WB acootrments and do a presentation within your unit. There are all sorts of benefits to that: your presentation are in front of people who care; the Scouts may gain some appreciation for the effort their leaders put in on their behalf; a whole new group of people will be exposed to the WB program and will learn a new piece of Scouting heritage; and you will be recognized by the people for whom you undertook WB. A win-win all around!

I would hope so. The consequences do seem to be a bit light to me. I tend to agree with Eamonn on this. While I'll agree with the analogy of the youth leaders being the cop on the corner, the adults need to be the ones dealing with the ultimate consequences for bad behavior. I don't get from the program materials where the PLC is trained or expected to deal with this. On the ground, I want my youth leaders to have the sense, maturity and training to recognize and stop behavioral problem as they occur and to recognize when they are over their heads and need adult help. Alone, that would be a huge accomplishment.

I think the presumption is that if "regular" or year-round dens attend camp as a unit then the under-14 den chiefs will be under the supervison of their regular, year-round den leaders. One think that's hard for a lot of folks to wrap their heads around is that a lot of the national day camp materials are built around day camp running they way most boy scout summer camps run. That is, a fixed, multi-week staff providing the program to different packs and dens which attend the camps, bringing both scouts and den/pack leaders. This generates a lot of confusion, especially as relates to staff. In this situation, are the den leaders camp staff? Are den chiefs attending day camp with their dens staff? In the same set up at boy scout camp, the adults attending camp with their troops are not considered camp staff. While a good bit of the day camp literature is based on this model of camp organization, not too many camp operate this way, at least not in my area. Most run as provisional camps with dens at camps comprised of scouts and leaders from a varient of packs. In this model, all the leaders are camp volunteers. It would be as if all scouts at a boy scout camp attend as provisional campers with troop leadership provided by the camp.

Everyone is entitled to their own intrepretation. If your district approves of the "mutiple clock" theory, I certainly don't have standing to complain. But in my own modest opinion, this mutiple clock stuff is cut from whole cloth. Again, "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award" seems pretty clear. Can anyone provide written documentation backing up an exception?

FYI -- Page 31 of the Cub Scout Day Camp book references that "program aides" must be at least 14 y.o. It also requires that they be Venturers or Life or Eagle Scouts. To tell you the truth, I've never noticed the rank requirement before and I'm quite sure we've had Boy Scouts on staff of lesser rank. We do, however, require their Scoutmaster to approve their staff application.

Do you have any requirement that packs provide leadership with their cubs? Our district requires cubs to register through their packs and that the packs provide one leader (or full week equivalent) for every four cubs registered. This includes the folks already on staff (like program directors). We'll make exceptions for certain packs, but generall we hold to that ratio pretty tightly. Yes, you get a lot of untrained and unregistered parents who volunteer for the week, but that's fine. There are plenty of jobs as program assistants and asst. den leaders. Your day-long staff training should cover what they need to know, including youth protection.

I disagree. "Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award." That seems remarkably clear, especially by BSA standards.

I think you misunderstood. If a volunteer has a 5-year-old, that child can be in camp as a Tot and spend the day in the Tot Lot program and probably participate in some of the age-appropriate day camp programs. Why would a 13-year-old have to stay one-on-one with their parent? All my resource materials are still packed up, but I'll try to find proper references for you. Boy Scouts must be 14 to be considered "staff members" in their own right. Boy Scouts ages 11-13 are permitted to be in camp only if they have a parent on staff. But, once they are they help with camp just like the older Scouts. Certainly, the Boy Scouts are assigned age-appropriate jobs. Frequently, this means the younger Boy Scouts get stuck hauling trash and water jugs. But we tried to make sure they rotate through some of the fun stuff too. We also tried to offer them at least one merit badge during the week, based on the resources and counselors we had in camp. But regardless, I don't think I would want to have a bunch of 11- and 12-year-olds "working" at camp. They will require more supervision than the benefit they bring. Focus your resources on the cubs.

Call region tomorrow and make sure you're registered properly or have your DE do it. 770-421-1601 Stuff happens. You should have received at least arrival instructions. Generally, just based on syllabus (I don't have any info specific to your course) you will probably need to check in sometime after 8:00 Friday morning and will leave just before lunch Sunday. I know you probably have a 3-4 hour drive, so most school offer an option to arrive Thursday night. There may be a small fee to cover the extra nights stay. You should have had that information months ago. You'll be given a six-inch stack of materials. Everything under the sun related to Cub Scouts. You really don't need to bring much. If you have anything specific to your camp you would like to talk about or ask questions, there will be time for that. The main thing you'll need is a Class III medical (or what ever they're called now). Otherwise, bring the stuff you would to any class, notebook, pen, highlighter, etc. One thing would be cool would be a digital camera. Lots of stuff like crafts would be cool just to snap a picture rather than taking notes and making sketches. A SEAT CUSHION! I always bring a bag of apples or oranges to things like this. It's not that I'm a health freak, just the opposite. I'll eat all the cookies and Rice Krispie treats they put in front of me If I don't have something better. Unless you're in a different facility, The Summit was rather spartan. I might throw an extra blanket and my own pillow in the car. You're between buildings, so rain gear or an umbrella.

While I agree that a couple years under your belt is best, I dont' agree that you should wait until you're a Boy Scout leader to take the course. One of the big changes to the WB21C program was to incorporate Cub Leaders into Wood Badge. As LisaBob says, packs need WB trained leaders too. Stosh, I'd be pressed, too, to discourage your new ASM from taking the course. Clearly, with his credentials, he has a perspective on the program far greater than, say, some 35-year-old dad who has only been an ASM a couple months.

I agree with Baden on the two years, but I would give partial credit for time served in the program as a yute. You will get much more out of the course with a little time to marinate in the program. Especially with no prior scouting experience, I think it takes that long go get a feel for the overall organization of Scouting. If you're just coming in as a Tiger Den Leader, you're doing well go get that job under your belt. Of course it takes a yeart long just to see the full annual program cycle. Another year gives you more perspective on the overall program, pack and maybe council operation. I would go one step further and say if you haven't take WB as a cub leader, don't try and take it in your first year as a Boy Scout leader either. WB is based, in part, around your primary registration in Scouting. If you are a brand new ASM, take a year to learn the ropes within the troop before WB. Of course, the training people will argue. They want to fill up their courses.

If it makes you feel better, Eamonn, the current syllabus calls for the session on budgeting to last just 20 minutes. I hope it doesn't burst any one's bubble, but day camps are supposed to be money maker as opposed to money loosers. Councils should require camps to build in a contingency fee which, hopefully, becomes the council's profit at the end of camp. The amount will vary greatly, depending on the services, material and resources the council provides. I'm familiar with some free-standing camps where the council's percentage is as low as 10% and other camps, held on council property with the council providing food service, t-shirts and patches, and some staffing, charge 50% or more. Lots of variables. I'd say your experience, Basementdweller, is outside normal ranges, to say the least.

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

No, that's not out of line. One of your camp standards is to include the parents or family in at least one activity such as a picnic or campfire. Do you have a budget yet? For simplicity sake, my preference would be to include the cost of the picnic in camp fee. But if you're afraid of someone taking advantage, it's reasonable to include one or two meal tickets in the base fee and sell extras for those who want/need them. I don't think $5 is too much to ask, unless what you're serving is really, really cheap. Even for burgers and dogs, five bucks is a pretty reasonable meal. One thing to remember is that when you start preparing and serving food, you're kicking in a whole new set of camp standards to meet, if not local health department regulations (I assume that's what basementdweller means by "licensing"). We had luck having an ice cream social at the end of camp. A local shop sold us ice cream at cost and even provided a pushcart-style freezer to serve out of. It was well received by the boys and families and was a pretty easy solution for the staff.

This is why we don't compete in camporees. More than likely, this guys was racked out of square because his scouts didn't get the stupid little gold nugget. At our Klondike, the boys are permitted to compete in work clothes and I don't have a problem with that. But in the name of "Scout Spirit", patrols wear all sorts of stupid costumes matching the "theme" of their patrol. In our last Klondike one of my patrols decided that a true show of scout spirit was to wear their uniforms. Other than at the station run by our troop, no one made any comments at all about them being the only patrol in uniform that day. But the pirate patrol did well. I'm in full agreement with you on the uniform issue. Certainly some troops hold higher standards than others, but the bozo berating your ASM was out of line. If being in full uniform fits your idea of scout spirit, it was perfectly acceptable to reward the scouts who met that standard. I will offer my thanks to you and your ASM for what you are doing.