Twocubdad

Sounds like a shakedown to me. I imagine the plantiff thought he could get big bucks by threatening to make the files public. Sounds like his bluff has been called. The news article was predictable. "Secret Boy Scout Pervert Files" is just too good a story to pass up. Of course if BSA hadn't kept secret files the story would have been about its failure to track the perverts or about the "lives ruined" by releasing info to the public.

This thread is not appropriate! We shouldn't be discussing the Gateway's behavion in public. Remember, praise in public, critique in private.

Who wants to bet this is just a turf war between the Innovation Council, Youth Development, PR/Marketing and others? Someone went public with this without kissing all the right hands (or whatever) and now it's payback time. So much for Mazucca's vaunted reorganization.

For years I tried to get the SPL and troop scribe to produce the troop meeting plan with sufficient copies for the leadership folks who needed it. Never happened. What is working is a 30x40 white board on which we've reproduced a blank troop meeting plan worksheet right out of the handbook. While no one seems to want to produce a document (I think kids equate anything on paper with homework) they are much more inclined to take five minutes to fill out the white board. Not only is that good discipline for the leaders, but with everyone knowing the agenda, it keeps the meetings much more on track. With the newbies just crossed over, it's a handy prop to explain the meeting format the them. You can buy 4x8 sheets of white board material for about $20 at either of the big box hardware stores. We did the lettering with vinyl stick-on and drew the lines in with permanent markers. It's an exact repro of the form in the SPL and SM handbooks.

What I really like to see is a project big enough that takes mutiple work days to complete (work days are usually 4-6 hours). Getting everyone out and motivated the first day is easy. But by the third or fourth day, your friends all feel like they've met their obligation to you and you're have to dig a little deeper to get help. More expansive projects also have a greater probability of running into unforseen problems which require the scout to analyze, adapt and solve. Bottom line -- I want to see a project that taxes a young man's leadership ability, resourcefulness and tenacity. Bolting together two picnic table kits the parks & rec department dropped off won't do that. Building two picnic tables from scratch more likely will. Gunny makes a good point in the parent thread that "demonstrating leadership" means someone else needs to be able to "observe leadership." It takes time to do that. But I'll bite on the hours question, too. In my opinion, a reasonable project should be between 125 and 150 "Scouthours." I make that distinction because a Scouthour is generally worth about 15 or 20 minutes of a manhour. 150 hours may sound like a lot, but when you break it down, it's not so bad. Eagle project hours are generally highly inflated. Not that anyone is fudging the numbers, just that the incentive is to capture as many hours as possible. If Eagles were paying their help by the hour, there would be a huge drop in the reported hours. Again, that's not a bad thing, just the way it works. I do this for a living, so I am accustomed to looking at a job and rendering it into labor and material. If I estimate I can do a project myself with one other guy in a day or two (maybe 20 or 30 manhours), it can probably be completed by an Eagle candidate with 6-8 boys over 3-4 work days or about 100 Scouthours. The rest of the time will be in planning. One of the big labor line items is the candidate himself. The Scout usually puts in about a third of the total hours themselves, half of which involves planning, proposal writing, procuring materials and recruit workers, and the rest his actual work on the project. I discount Scouthours because there is a lot of down time involved. The Eagle candidate will probably spend an inordinate amount of head-scratching time solving problems and figuring out what comes next. That'a a good thing. But while he's doing that, he has eight kids waiting, or more likely getting into someting else which require even more time to get them refocused. Guys often have too many helpers on a project, especially in the early going. I counsel boys that they will get more accomplished with four workers on two different days than with 8 kids on one day. I also tell them to recruit specific helpers, not just "y'all come help" announcements which may result in 12 or 15 boys showing up. Depending on the project, a Scout is going to have a hard time keeping that many people productive. Adults add a tremendous amout of hours while (hopefully) contributing little to the project. Two-deep sidewalk superintendants, don't you know. Mom and two sisters bring drinks and snacks to each workday is 2 hours X 3 people X 4 days = 24 Scout hours. I've seen project reports showing 16 hours for big sister taking photos. All of which is fine, but understand when you see a project which took 300 hours to complete, this is where much of the time went. All that said, I don't judge projects based on the estimated hours involved. Again, my brain sorta automatically renders everything into manhours. It's just my way of looking at it. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

"However, because the language and techniques used in those badges comes from the early 20th century, the BSA has been hard at work crafting supplements that will help put the requirements in a modern context. " Translation: "God knows we can't offer a merit badge for 'Stalking.' The PC Police will go nuts. It's taking longer than we expected to PhotoShop all the old merit badge books to change Stalking to something more acceptable." And I for one am grateful for the implementation guides and press releases. There's no way Scouts could earn merit badges without a canned press release for the local media.

Yeah, Ed, I think there is a tendancy for folks to create their own buzzwords when they don't have a particularly good handle on the concept themselves and therefore can't really can't explain it to others. Our council Eagle project committee likes to label projects a "troop good turn" when they otherwise can't come up with a concrete reason to turn it down. I think the "no added value" phrase means the same thing. What the really mean is "we want you to build something, by God. Chop up some treated lumber. Kill trees. Dig holes." They still hold the notion that Eagle projects require "permanence" but that's been pretty much discredited by national.

It is totally appropriate to teach first aid during troop meetings. But it should be done in a way so as to preserve the overall process. If your Scouts want to have First Aid merit badge as a troop function, first of all the Scouts need to be responsible for teaching the first aid skills where appropriate. Actually, most of the merit badge can be taught by knowledgable Scouts. Many of the requirements are repeated from T-2-1 requirements. I would encourage the Scouts to invite outside experts to make the instruction interesting for the older boys -- maybe have the local fire department or rescue squad teach some advanced stuff; give them the opportunity to get CPR certification; a peak a wilderness first aid strategy; or using AED equipment. But here's the key. The Scouts then have to contact a counselor and pass mustard with them. The counselor should go through each requirement with each Scout INDIVIDUALLY and make sure they know the material. All the requirements contain verbs. Do, explain, describe, show, visit, teach. Not one single requirement says "attend a class or lecture." PeteM -- I agree. I don't know why folks think they are doing Scouts a service by making merit badges easier to get. I'm catching flack now over our Scouts attending the local merit badge mill weekend. "But they have some really cool classes the boys can't take elsewhere." Not true. Our troop has well-qualified counselor for EVERY SINGLE BADGE being offered at the mill. In some cases, the mill counselors are folks from our troop. But guess what? Our Scouts never asks to do those merit badges individually. What's the difference? Why will boys go to a mill and take a merit badge class but won't approach a counselor individually to earn the same badge? You tell me.

"In the spirit of being green and making the program accessible, you wont be able to get printed materials for the merit badges. Instead, have your Scouts go to scouting.org." Garbage like this just makes me nuts. If that is true, why don't they go to online versions of the other 120 merit badge books? (Answer: because at $5.00, there is nice profit in merit badge books.) "Initial production of new merit badge books is expensive and because this is a limited program, we don't want Scout Shops across the country to be stuck with expensive and obsolete books at the end of the year." Why make up stuff when the truth is perfectly reasonable and easily understood?

I don't think a cap works very well. You're somewhat obligated to take the boys from your feeder (I perfer to call them "brother") packs; if a Scout recruits a friend, is hard to say no; likewise with a boy moving into town. About the only guys you're turning away are those transferring from another troop or pack and that's probably not going to impact your numbers significantly. I do believe having brother packs and troops within the same CO is the perferred situation, but it can make you lazy. If a troop assumes they will automatically get the Webelos from the relate pack they may do little to support the pack, not worry with a Webelos/Scout transition plan and run a crummy first year program. Done right, the relationship between the pack and troop allows for a great transition for both boys and parents and gives the troop to easily place Den Chief. A real win-win. OneHour, we're about a year behind you, numbers-wise. At crossover we went from 41 boys to 65. This time next year we could easily be at 90. It will be two more years before we start aging boys out in significant numbers. Interestingly, that will complete a 10-year cycle where we started with 90-100 boys, birthed a new troop, nearly folded and slowly recovered. Our experience forming a new troop wasn't good. It almost killed our troop. With a new, separate troop you have little or no control over where the Webelos go. In our experience, it tended to be an all-or-nothing migration. When the new troop formed, most of the younger Scouts went to the new troop. The adults forming the new troop had younger sons so they went and many of their friends followed. Those guys also tended to have younger brothers still in the pack, so when they crossed over, they followed their brothers to the new troop and their friends followed them. Net result was that for three years the old troop didn't receive ANY new Webelos. For a year or two after that the Webelos split between the troops. For the past 3 years the Webelos are pretty much coming to our troop (the old troop) 100%. Now with no brother/feeder pack, the new troop is down to a handful of guys and are in danger of folding. Long-term, our plan is going to just deal with the large numbers. One thought will be to have two Senior Patrol Leaders and two PLCs. I'm not sure exactly how that will work, if we just have co-leaders or if we try to run two parallel programs. Ultimately, if it came down to it, I think we would form a second troop within the chartered organization, meeting a different night. Another CO in the council had done that and made it work. For us the REAL long-range solution would be for the district membership committee to get off their duffs and recruit and new CO to charter both a pack and troop. Eventually that will reduce the numbers in both our existing pack and troop to managable levels and create four healthy units. That you already have two packs graduating boys to your troop gives you yet another option of working with your District Executive to encourage one of the packs to form a troop of their own. You will probably see some losses in you existing troop. The most logical place to recruit new troop leaders would be from among the adults in your troop with ties to that pack and CO. But because you still have the relationship with the other pack, you have the ability to sustain the troop with new members.

Thanks fish, I'll let you know where to send the royalty checks for the poster. But MikeF makes a good point, too. Chaos is not the objective. An well-organized, orderly, Scout-run meeting would be ideal. Much of it is perception. From an adult view, and compared to a staff meeting at work, a troop meeting is going to appear to be chaotic. And I'm probably overly de-sensitized to the chaos. We've got a big troop and a small facility. Even when everyone is working as they should meetings are pretty crazy.

Not to be overly pedantic, but if you are teaching SM/ASM Position Specific training, you need to stick to the syllabus. On the other hand, as a troop program, or even as supplemental training for Roundtable, this looks great. I'd like to use it with the ASMs in out troop. Can you post a fleshed-out version of the syllabus?

You're right about the Webelos activity pins, CPAMom. And troop B sounds like a big Webelos 3 den. I am quite sure the troop leaders are very talented, busy and involved. Unfortunately, that's not how a Boy Scout troop is supposed to work. The Scouts should be running the show with the adults in the back of the room with their mouths shut. Most adult interaction with the Scouts should be one-on-one (in a Youth Protection-compliant way), coaching and guiding to youth leaders who are implementing the program. Back to your original question, "What should Boy Scout meetings look like?" Absolute chaos. At some point troop meetings should look like 12-ring circuses. A healthy troop should have a couple 15-16 year olds chasing down a handful of 13-14 year olds who are trying to control the rest of the crowd. Again, the adults should be on the fringes drinking coffee (back in the day, they used to smoke pipes, but that's been banned.) The order can be difficult to spot among the chaos. But there's probably a couple knots of guys (patrols) sitting together. They may be making plans for a patrol outing or a menu for the next campout. There may be kids (quartermasters) working on gear or refolding tents. There may be older Scouts (instructors and troop guides) teaching basic Scout skills. Someone (the scribe) should be running around taking attendance or with a sign-up sheet for an outing. One of the main purposes of the program is to give the youth leaders the experience of making decisions and leading an organization. If you don't understand that we've created an environment in which the boys can try, fail and try again, you will probably come away wondering what the heck is going on. Many adults just can't tolerate that and think "someone (meaning an adult) needs to take control." Nope. On the other hand, it is appropriate for troops to use merit badges as part of their troop program -- if done correctly. We do it frequently, especially in the winter and early spring before cross over, when most of the Scouts are well on their way to First Class. But the difference is that the boys are taught skills which will ENABLE them to earn the MB on their own with a counselor. We don't sign-off requirements at troop meeetings (unless a Scout arranges to meet a counselor before or after) and we certainly don't issue blue cards (merit badge applications ) to everyone who sits through the session. And having adults teach these sessions isn't necessarily inappropriate either. We've had some really good adult speakers conduct sessions on Nuclear Science, Electronics, Law and Medicine. Not many Scout-aged boys have the expertise to lead those sessions. The idea is to whet the boys' interest in the subject so that on his own he will contact the counselor and finish the badge individually. We've had sessions like this after which not one single Scout completed the badge. And that's fine. They still learned a thing or two. Overall, it seems you have two troops operating at the far ends of the spectrum. I would suggest a lot more research before committing in either direction. In the past there have been some good threads here on what to look for in a Boy Scout troop. There is good info there if you run a search for them

Yes. Spending troop meetings working on merit badges is the classic hallmark of an adult-led troop. If you want your son to earn a lot of merit badges and make Eagle in a couple years, this will be a great troop. If you want him to learn to be self-sufficient, make good decisions and to be a leader, keep looking. Troop B is defeating one of the primary purposes of the merit badge program: adult association. The way merit badges should work is for a boy to decide that he wants to earn a merit badge which interests him. He approaches his Scoutmaster who should talk with the scout about his interest in the badge and, if he approves, the SM will give the scout the name of a qualified counselor (or several names) and sign the boy's merit badge application that he is authorized to work on the badge. The Scout then calls the counselor and asks for an appointment. Maybe the scout completes some of the requirements before hand, but he meets with the counselor who helps the Scout earn the badge. Some badges require touring specific facilities and hopefully the counselor can arrange that and personally take the scout on the tour. Group merit badges classes usually -- no always -- short circuit the learning process. Instead of exploring and researching a subject, scouts sit in chairs while someone spoon-feeds the information to a large group. Because they have so many students at one time, many counselors will use fill-in-the-blank forms for the kids to report back what they've "learned." I've watched kids simply use these worksheets to take notes during the lectures then turn in their notes as evidence of completing the badge. Requirements which read "Discuss with your counselor...." or "Explain the following...." are short circuited. There are limited instances when group badges are okay, such as when access to facilities or experts are limited. And there are ways to do group merit badges to overcome some of the above problems, but they are still a lesser experience than the real-one-on-one experience of working with a knowledgable adult. There are likely a lot of other issues with Troop B, and I'm sure others will outline them, but merit badges like this are one of my pet peeves. I also have a concern that Troop A only meets once a month. Hopefully, this means the boys are meeting as patrols on their own. Not too many troops really operate that way anymore. As a parent, I would want to see what's going on with the patrols and how they work. If they are doing it right, that would be a really great troop to be in. Of course, they may just meet once a month and do nothing. In that case you need to be looking for Troop C.

The same way the handle the lawsuits generated by aquatics, climbing, shooting sports and the other programs.

Depends on the Bugler. We just changed positions and our new bugler only knows assembly, mess call and taps, so that's what he uses. This kid is a pretty good trumpet player, so I have great hope. Our last bugler knew assembly, mess and spent his entire term learning To the Colors. He finally got it, sorta, if you already knew the tune and could pick it out. The primary call we use is assembly, which we use even during troop meetings to get everyone inside and settled.

Ah! A third option: a rhetorical exercise. But then two minutes, or two seconds would be an acceptable minimum, using that logic. In the real world I still don't buy it. The book says an ESLP must be of sufficient scope for a Scout to demonstrate leadership (not a quote, but close). A scout cannot demonstrate sufficient leadership (planning, communicating, directing, problem solving, etc.) in that time. And I don't buy the idea that it is no fault of the scout if no one shows up for his project. Actually, we've had that happen recently. We had an Eagle candidate show up at a troop meeting an announce he "might" be working on his Eagle project this weekend, but wasn't sure. If anyone wanted to help they should let him know and he'd be in touch if he decided to do anything (again, not a quote, but close). Is anyone surprised that no one showed up to help? And why not? Because of the Scout's absolute failure to lead. We had another scout a few years ago who couldn't get anyone to help because he kept scheduling work session for Sunday mornings, which fit his father's schedule. Surprised no one showed? Me either. Unlike our council Advancement committee, I believe a Scout can have significant failures within his project and still complete the requirement. However he must demonstrate leadership and enough of the project be completed so as to have rendered a service to the beneficiary. But if you fail to execute the significant portions of the approved plan as approved you better be able to demonstrate some fairly heroic efforts at to complete. The "changes" need to be of the analyze, adapt, overcome variety -- no "here's what I didn't get done." Solving and overcoming problems is one of the great lessons of an Eagle project. One of the reasons for the grander scale of Eagle projects is to have sufficient moving parts to create problems. Good example: my son's project included a fair bit of landscaping and the location of several permanent benches and tables in the plan. He spent hours developing a detailed site plan. The first day, he, his brother and I spent a couple hours locating all the elements on site. When we finished, I explained that we had laid out the project mathematically, but I wanted to step back and see if the location of all the stuff was pleasing asthetically. He had a cow! He couldn't understand that adaptation and flexibility is part of the process. You are correct that in the end, the scout, the beneficiary and the unit leader (me) are the only signatures required to show completion of the project. Generally, the beneficiary will be focused on technical completion and service rendered. I'm looking at that plus leadership and process. Trust me. Two hours won't cut it.

Complete your Webelos Den Leader training, THEN start planning your program. You will have a better idea for the priorities of the program. Don't get the cart before the horse.

Perhaps this is just hyperbole or I'm otherwise missing your point, C21A, because I just flat-out disagree with that. How can a scout demonstrate leadership or render any sort of service in three man-hours? Newbie instructors devote more leadership and service into running a troop instruction. Patrol leader certainly put more into a campout than that. Star and Life require more effort than that. Why would you accept less for Eagle? By the way, FrankBoss, you may want to point out page 84 of the new Boy Scout Handbook to the troop leaders. One of the examples of a good service project is to "repair a place of worship." While nothing on the page specifically references this as an Eagle project, if you go to the Eagle requirements in the back of the book, it refers you to pages 84 and 85.

I'll agree with the others that camping once a month is too aggressive. Even with the boy scouts a hard and fast once-a-month campout is hard to keep up. Enthusiasm starts to fall off and eventually attendance follows. We break it up with fun outdoor activites, not always campouts, like skiing or a day of climbing. I would also suggest you go easy on the plan to break up the dens. You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT that 24 boys is two many. You need to make the split happen. BUT, look at the big picture. What is to happen with the other 14 boys. Help recruit additional WDLs and work with them to help develop a solid Webelos program for all the boys.

Much depends on the cooking facilities you have. I can cook over a fire or camp stove as well as I can at home, the difficulty is holding stuff hot or cold before serving. Our old pack campsite had a big 3'x3' charcoal grill so we could grill a pile of burgers or dogs in a hurry. One dad had a piece of steel cut to fit the grill which we used to turn out hundreds of pancakes in a hurry (we mixed the batter in a 5 gal bucked with a cortdless drill and paint stirrer.) The soups, stews and chilies are good ideas as you can do a lot in one big pot. One year we did hobo dinners for the kids and used the same ingredients to make a nice stewed beef for the adults. A quick and easy breakfast for us was an oatmeal bar. Big pot of oatmeal and a wide assortment of toppings-- bananas, strawberries, blueberries, syrup, brown sugar, butter, chocolate chips, on and on. Let the boys come up with ideas. It was funny that when we told the boys we were having oatmeal, a lot of them said they didn't like oatmeal. Turns out they don't like MICROWAVE oatmeal. They couldn't believe how good the real deal, cooked with milk, really is. The chocolate chips didn't hurt either.

There is no requirement that a ESLP be something that lasts a while. "Permanence" is one of those notions that eventually leads all PTL (pressure-treated lumber) projects. I joke that someone on our project review committee must have a brother-in-law in the pressure-treated lumber business. Committee members are quick to point out that they encourage non-construction type projtects, but the hurdles they throw up for them make most boys quickly realize they are swimming upstream and opt for PTL projects. As a new scoutmaster, I tried to encourage our scouts to think outside the box and come up with something more meaningful. My criteria was to have a project such that the beneficiary of the project would want to brag on you at your Eagle Court of Honor. One of the first projects like that was a scout who worked with a local community center to develop a after-school literacy program for at-risk elementary school students. He was turned down cold. The explaination was that the project was a "glorified good turn" whatever the heck that means. I've yet to get a good explaination -- and yes, I've asked all the way up the advancement foodchain including the scout executive. What I was told was that the scout had no way of measuring the effectiveness of the reading program and would not be able to show at the end of the project if they had taught the children anything. And even if the children showed improvement, he couldn't say that the improvements were through his efforts, what the children were doing in school, their regular after-school program or reading at home. The ways in which that rational is ridiculous boggles the mind. So the Scout dropped the reading program (he didn't have a choice - it was turned down cold with no recourse for amending it) and went with a traditional PTL project which sailed through the committee. To the boy's credit, he felt he had made a commitment to the after-school program so he completed both projects. Cool. As for the committee's concern with the lack of measurable success, the Scout worked with one little boy individually. During one of their session the little fellow read a book cover to cover for the first time in his life. Measure that.

Well-up-in-his-60's-guy's March 8 post.

Welcome aboard. Have a donut.

WHOA THEREbig fellow, you need to be careful of the friendly-fire casualties. Let us review: ----------------- Posted by Twocubdad: Monday, 2/8/2010: 8:39:53 PM Sorry, E732. I thought my post was sufficiently dripping with sarcasm. I should have used one of those little sarcasm thingys. What's the code for that? Ctrl/Alt/F7? Several months and hundreds of post ago, when there was still substantive discusion going on here, I was fairly supportive of MDSummer. ------------- Posted by Eagle732: Tuesday, 2/9/2010: 12:52:56 PM Twocub, thank you, apologies accepted, no hard feelings here. ------------- For the record: 1. I have no more or no less reason to believe the veracity of this thread than anything else I read in this fourm. I take it a face value. And as with all the other threads, I'm operating on the assumpiton it is true. 2. Based on the info we have before us, I believe MDS's son has met the requirements for Eagle and have previously stated so. I've encouraged her/them to appeal the local decisions both here and in private communications. 3. I think all the BS, off-topic chatter about pie and racking up the number of posts is a waste of my time and would be appreciative if you all knocked it off or at least moved it to another clearly labled thread. I'd like to be able to keep up with this thread without wading through the bull. If I want to waste time and listen to a lot of prattle, I'd start going to Roundtable again.