Twocubdad

I know who our UC is, although after two years I don't think I could pick him out of a crowd. Before that we had an unidentified ADC as our commissioner. Every year I issue a blanket invitation to anyone in the commissioner corps or on the district committee to attend any pack meeting or activity at any time. So far, no takers. If they are waiting for written invitations, forget about it. Although, come to think of it, they do get written invites to our Blue & Gold and they still don't come. IMHO, Commissioners as they currently operate are a drain on manpower. The 3:1 ratio needed for Quality District means we need more than 30 commissioners in our district. Without a whole bunch of empty shirts, I don't see it happening. Although I suppose the only thing worse would be if we had 30 good, strong, enthuiastic commissioners. Frankly, I'd rather see those people in other positions. Most of the good commissioners I see seem to be looking for something positive to do. They're constantly coming up with programs and ideas that don't necessarily need doing and certainly aren't within the scope of a commissioner. Commissioners need to find ways to do useful things for their units. Show up at at troop meeting with a trunk full of watermelons. Offer to cook dutch oven cobblers at a pack overnighter. When there is a significant program change (I'm guessing we're due a new CS Leader Book soon) offer to come to the leaders meeting and go over the changes. Make a point to train one unit leader one-on-one just to build a relationship and to let the unit know I've make a contribution. If the only time time the unit leaders see their commissioner is when something is screwed up, of course they're going to have a bad attitude regarding commissioners. About this idea that unit leaders all think that commissioners are spys for the council, the only people I've ever heard say that are commissioners. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Shut up about it already! If you act like a spy, only come lurking around when there is a problem, and keep telling everyone that everyone thinks you're a spy, then they're probably right!

The real problem I'm trying to address is separation anxiety. That the den is too big is a given. Creating a second den of course creates the need for a second set of leaders. The problems is that no one is volunteering to join the new den, especially if it means they may be asked to be its leader. Frankly, if my son were in a strong, sucessful den with a leader he likes I wouldn't offer to to move him either. the ideal outcome would be for the two dens to begin to function independently after a few months. I'm trying to find a way to ease into the new set up without the friction EagleinKY notes that a cold-turkey split may cause.

I'm not sure I'm following the thrust of the conversation here -- and this is WAAY off the original topic, but a couple thought relating to the last few posts (and I'm not even sure whose argument this supports, if either): 1) Comparing BSA to most athletic leagues is a non-starter. Someone could write a book on the program differences, but just in terms of funding it should be noted that most athletic leagues rely on massive public funding of facilities. Whether it's the local Saturday morning soccer league or the high school football team, I shudder to think what the total cost is to build and maintain the sports facilities for these teams. If you are going to compare the budgets of scout camps to baseball leagues, be sure to include the cost of the $5 million taxpayer-paid park they are playing in. 2) One programming area I would like to see our council commit more money to would be make our camp facilities available on a year-round basis. Sure, you can primitive camp at a council camp any time of year, but all you are utilizing is the vacant land and firewood. Most Scout camps have huge investments in facilities (dining halls, pools and other aquatics facilities, climbing walls, shooting ranges) which are used only a few weeks in the summer. Many, if not most local units don't have the trained leaders to use these facilities on a unit basis. Why not have a skeleton staff to open these area with the help of trained volunteers? Wouldn't it be great for a pack to be able to call up and say we have 30 boys and 25 adults who want to use the pool Saturday morning, the BB and archery ranges in the afternoon and will be there for dinner Saturday and breakfast Sunday? It's like McDonald's selling breakfast. The cost of the fixed assets were so much greater than the marginal operating cost, it didn't make sense for the restaurants to sit idle for a third of the day. Viola! Egg McMuffins! By the way, this is an idea I've discussed with our council camping chairman who thinks it has merit and has agreed to discuss it further.

So what's the problem? The kid is atheist, is going to an atheist camp and likes it better. Is that not his perogative? How many posts here have suggested that those who disagree with BSA policy on religion and orientation go somewhere else? Isn't that what this kid has done? If the boy choose a church camp over a Scout camp and said, "It's better that Boy Scout camp. Whenever we ate we had to say a generic, non-Christian prayer. It got rather annoying." would we be having this discussion?

I went to BS camp for half the week with my son's troop. My son was one of only four first-year campers. Of the 21 boys who went to camp, more that half are in high school. The thing I noticed was that while the selection of merit badges geared for the older boys was good, the off-hour activities weren't. In fact outside the merit badge program I'd have to say the camp was generally geared toward 11- & 12-year-olds. A lot of little things treated all the boys like Cub Scouts. Probably the best example was the 10 p.m. lights-out time. Get real. In addition to just lightening up, I think the older boys would have a better time if there were some social things for them. Maybe something like an officers' club were they can hang together.

My question related to splitting a single den within our pack not the whole pack. But still, Woj has outlined some of the issues well. We could probably recruit another DL and asst. out of the group, but the problem is getting other families to voluntarily leave a good, strong den to form another. Unfortunately the dynamics of a den like that is that the parents who are involved, active and would make good den leaders themselves are the ones who are the most invested in the current den and least interested in splitting off. My thinking is that with the non-split split I described earlier that over a few months the two dens would begin to operate independently, but who knows. That's why I'm looking for input. Not to get off subject, but my experience with splitting units to create new ones is not good. New units need to be formed the old-fashioned way by finding an interested CO, leadership and pool of boys. If a few boys are drawn from other units, fine. But if a new unit is relying on pulling resources from an existing unit I question if there is really enough commitment there for a stand alone unit.

We have a huge pack with two or three dens at each level. For a variety of odd reasons, we only one den now going into their Bear year. They started with a small class of Tigers two years ago, but has grown a boy or two at a time until they now have 14 boys. With Roundup coming in the next couple weeks, I'm sure we will gain a few more Bears, but historically not enought to form a new Bear den. Fourteen boys in the current den is too big so adding the new boys is really out of the question. Good news/bad news is that the current den has a really great father/grandfather leadership team and none of the current families are willing to split off to help form a new den. What if we split the den into A and B teams with an ADL in charge of each? The dens could meet at the same time, share programs and planning, but go to two separate areas for their activities. The original DL could still be responsible for the overall program. The problem with a huge den is that the noise, distractions and discipline problems created by 16 boys is exponentially greater that those of 8 boys. So while officially and in the eyes of the parents and boys they are still one den, we're splitting them up for activities. Wadda y'all think? Anyone have a better idea?

But the point is, FS, that there is nothing that prevents a Den Leader from pulling double duty as popcorn chairman or heading up the Blue & Gold. That's something I've had to work at to eliminate in my pack. It's an easy temptation to keep piling work onto those who are willing to do it. It is much more effort on the pack leadership to recruit other less active parents to do these jobs. P330, you and your pack need to step back and evaluate it's entire program. It sounds like a one person show. Your comment about posting sign up sheets, for example. In the first place, recruiting volunteers to staff outings isn't your job. Secondly, sign up sheets are a lousey way of recruiting volunteers. Carrying the whole pack on your shoulder seems like a good and noble thing. And in the short term it is. But in the long term you are hurting the pack by not developing a leadership team. In the narrow view you are kicking and screaming and doing all you can to get these other deadbeats involved. But at the same time, by carrying the whole program yourself, you are making it possible for them to sit back and do nothing. A little tough love is in order. You and your committee chairman need to sit down and review the official job descriptions in the leaders' book. You need to explain what a CM does and does not do -- and stick to it. They want to go camping this fall? Fine, they should tell you when and where. You can be responsible for organizing the camp fire. The rest is up to the committee. And by the way, they need to find an assistant CM for the next three months or so.

Just back from vacation, so I want to jump back to the original post. I don't have a problem "requiring" that every family contribute to the operation of the unit. The devil, of course, is in the details. A hard-and-fast "you go camping twice a year or your kid gets the boot" rule won't work for all the reasons previously mentioned. Such a requirement (actually I would rather call it a very strong exectation) needs to be tempered with a very reasonable enforcement policy. As has been noted, there are lots of reasons some families can't volunteer: family situation, health issues, etc. "Really busy at work" only works for so long with me, unless a family is in really dire financial straits. Everyone is really busy these days. Ultimately, however, the issue goes back to the basics of recruiting volunteers. You've got to ask a specific person to do a specific job. It's just as we teach the boys in first aid, don't just yell "somebody call 911", you have to grab someone by the collar, look them in the eye and tell that person to go call for help. Recruiting volunteers is the same. During that one-on-one conversation, I wouldn't be afraid to mention in a positive way the unit's "requirement" that every family pitch in and that it's time for the person to step up to the plate.

How are your events planned? Are they planned by the committee? Do the other leaders have a chance to provide their input? Why aren't they buying into the program? What can you do to bring them on board? How are you recruiting leaders? Are you generally asking for help or are you going to selected individuals with a specific job (and job description) and asking them to fill a specific need? Take a look at the thread called "Discouraged!" which is currently active. There is some good advice there for how to select and recruit volunteers. There is a BSA publication which outlines the process you can ask your DE or scout shop for. The Cub Scout Leader Book outlines the annual planning process and Program Helps includes calendars and forms to help with the plan (as well as a pre-planned year of activities, if you choose to use it.) The line in your post that stands out to me is where you say you have no problem attracting parents to meetings and activities -- that's half the battle. I think if you try some of these proven methods you have a better chance of getting folks interested and active.

If you are trying to satisfy the requirement that every boy cook a meal outdoors, you are limited as to what what can reasonably be done individually. That's the great thing about the foil dinners. You can spice them up by increasing the choice of ingredients. If you have enough boys to make it economical, offer them a choice of meats, veggies, sauces and pasta to put in their packet -- it almost becomes a Mongolian barbecue. A key to sucessful foil dinners (we still call them hobo dinners, it that PC?) is to pre-cook many of the ingredients so that everything comes out evenly. Nothing worse than half the dinner scorched and the other half raw. This is especially true with chicken and similar foods due to food safety concerns.

The activity uniform for an adult Cub Scout leader is the same as for a Boy Scout: activity shirt (whether it's a unit t-shirt, Boy Scout polo, Cub Scout polo or whatever), uniform pants, belt and Boy Scout socks. It would not be appropriate to wear Cub socks, even with the Cub Scout polo shirt. To argue that Cub Scouts don't have activity uniforms is a matter of semantics. Both my boys have piles of Cub Scout t-shirts. Certainly they wear them as "activity uniforms" when appropriate. So okay, technically they are either in full Cub Scout uniform or they are out of uniform. Does it really matter?

We had two boys join as W2s last year, one earned his AoL and the other didn't. When you are registering boys as new W2s be sure to look at their birthdates. If their birthday falls after your usual crossover date and they don't earn the AoL, they'll be left hanging when the rest of their den crosses over. The requirements for joining a troop are be 11 years old, earn the AoL or complete the fifth grade.

I really do understand that there are children who have a very real medical condition of ADD. These kids need our empathy and best efforts to help them succeed despite their condition. We have a couple Scouts in our pack with moderate to severe behavioral and learning problems who are a real challenge for us. Let me say first that when I say that children need discipline, I don't mean punishment. I believe discipline is teaching and training children to behave and conduct themselves as expected. If a child (or anyone) has discipline, they avoid those thing for which they may be punished. Children need to know what the expectations are and they need to be taught how to meet them. I can't help but believe that an ADD child could benefit from more discipline that other children. The tricks and techniques you mentioned in your earlier posts are good examples of what I'm talking about. But on the other hand, far, far too many parents are much too quick to label their children ADD. Schools and probably some professionals are complicit in this as well. It's an easy excuse for their child's poor behavior AND their laziness in dealing with it. Disciplining a child is hard work and believe me I understand some are more work than others. One of mine is like that. You have to stop what you are doing, deal with the child, make a plan, execute and follow through. It's much easier to just sit there and let him go. And if you can throw out "Well his meds must be wearing off" as cover to the other parents, even better. This is the case with the five boys I mentioned. When I take the time to work with the boys, explain how I expect Cub Scouts to behave and let them know I'm serious about it, four of the five respond. (I think the fifth kid is just evil, but that's another thread.) Their parents are amazed how well their sons behave at Scouts. Not amazed enough to get off their butts and do something about it, but still amazed. They are content to sit in a corner and let their boy run wild or worse yet think he's being cute. As to my perception or that of the general public, these folks with "convenient ADD" are the ones making it difficult for those with a real medical condition. Given my experiences, when someone tells me their child is ADD my first thought is "Yeah, right." I admit that makes it difficult to recognize and deal with the one child out of 20 with a real problem. I hope that when I am faced with a child with a real problem, I have the wisdom to recognize it.

Just back from a week at summer camp, so I may as well step in it with both feet. I have a very non-politically correct view of ADD. I'll probably catch a boatload of grief over this, but here goes.... I think ADD is grossly over diagnosed. At the day camp I run an average of about 10% of the boys are reported as ADD on their medical forms. As these are Class I forms I don't know if these boys are all medically diagnosed as ADD or if that is just the opinion of the parents. In my old den (now in Boy Scouts) and my younger son's den there were five Scouts on medication for ADD -- that's five out of about 20 boys. I have zero expertise in this field, but I can't imagine the true incidence of ADD is anything approaching 10-to-25 percent. Something is wrong with this. Of the ADD boys I've had direct contact with (primarily the five in my sons' dens), four of the five responded very well to good, old-fashioned discipline: telling the boys what is expected of them and then expecting them to comply. All the same, basic rules and tricks of the den leader trade that work on the other Scouts work with these boys. With all five of those boys, their parents did little or nothing to discipline them. The boys could be setting the building on fire and the parents would blythely continue on with their conversation as if nothing were happening. In my opinion, most of the boys I've delt with whose parents claim they have ADD really have LPD -- Lazy Parent Disorder. Now before those of you with ADD children track me down and blow up my computer, please understand that I'm not talking about you. I'm sure your child really has ADD. I'm sure there are children out there with ADD who need and respond to medication and therapy, but it sure as heck isn't anything like 25 percent of the population. As to your question OGE, I treat ADD boys the same as the others -- I expect them to behave themselves. Perhaps sometime I will be faced with a child that has a real medical condition and that approach won't work, but it hasn't happened yet.

Coolest knot to teach Cub Scouts: One-handed bowline (cool and easier to learn than standard bowline). Coolest new knot I've learned lately: Alpine butterfly (a climbing knot). Best knot book: Riggers Apprentice by Brian Toss, a sailing book but really good. Very good with splices and other stuff scouts don't often see.

You call toilet tissue "AP" (do they still do that?)

I'm splitting next week between two camps. Heading out tomorrow to Boy Scout camp with #1 son for a couple days. Coming home Wednesday to S, S, S, S and S, then Thursday I'm off to Webelos Resident Camp with son #2 and his den. By the time I get back I may be posting long quotes from Greek philosophers and using mutiple personalities myself!

When I read these silly little posts it just makes me go BE-SERK!

I thought it is fairly universal that you have to be 18 to get a tattoo. Are there states where that isn't the law? How are Scouts getting tattoed then? Assuming it's legal, or even a parental permission thing, it shouldn't affect how a Scout is treated. Like it or not, tattos are becoming pretty mainstream these days -- well not with me, but you know what I mean.

Cub Resident Camp is a new thing this year here. Basically they are tacking it onto the last week of Webelos Resident camp and running much the same program and staff, just geared down a bit. It won't be held until week after next and I've not heard how the registration is running. I'm interested to see how it works out. They didn't really promote it that well. No one from my pack is going although we have a crowd going to WRC. I'd love to see it take off and pull some of the boys from the day camp I run. Any thing that gives us some relief would be great. This year we had over 330 Cubs for the week of day camp. Too dang many!

Also understand there is a difference between Pack, Webelos den or family camping and Webelos Resident Camp. Webelos CAN attend WRC without a parent under the supervision of their den leaders. I belive they must meet a minimum ratio of one adult to five Scouts (but I'm not positive about that number.) The difference is that WRC is run by camp school certified directors and must meet a long list of nationally mandated requirements. Pack, den or family camping does not need to meet these requirements. Beaver: your web site says, "sessions are camp sessions for Cub and Webelos Scouts, registered parents and registered Leaders only." What is a "registered parent"? I don't really understand. It seems to be saying that day trippers or other guests aren't allowed. Of course I understand the bit about sibblings.

I can see where that would be a good thing, Beaver. Probably half the Webelos parents go to WRC with their sons. It has caused problems in the past, but during our pre=camp meeting I now remind the parents that the purpose of WRC is to acclimate their sons to a Boy Scout experience and to rely upon themselves, their buddies and their leaders. I tell the parent they are in camp as Scout leaders, not parents. I'll let you know if it works next week.

Yes, Mark, when a Scout's birthdate is entered into ScoutNet it will kick it out if he isn't old enough. The software recognized when the "Earned Arrow of Light" or "Completed Fifth Grade" box is checked. I've had my DE call me with applications that have been kicked back, usually just a typo or something similar. PS to Rooster -- I'm with you on the young Eagle issue. I earned mine at 13 1/2 and feel like I've had a pretty successful Scouting career so far.

Page 21 of the Webelos Leader book covers this. The preference is that a Webelos camp with his parent. If that is not possible the parents may arrange with another parent to supervise their son for the campout. The other parent MAY NOT be one of the trip leaders. Otherwise the parents could just get together and say that the den leader has been assigned responsibility for supervising all the boys and turn it into a Boy Scout-type campout. Webelos are not allowed to camp with just their den leaders and no other parents. To my knowledge there is no official ratio for the number of boys to parents. Our pack has a policy that a parent may be responsible for only one Scout in addition to their own children (we would probably fudge that in the case of brothers). We've also developed a form that both sets of parents sign assigning and accepting responsibility for the Scout. We created the form after an instance where one parent sent their Webelos a campout assuming that a friend would supervise the son but without mentioning it to the friend. The friend had not planned to camp over night and left after dinner, leaving the Scout totally on his own. Incredible as it sounds, the boys parents went out of town for the weekend and couldn't be reached. (You don't want to know the message I left on their answering machine!) Fortunately, we had extra tents and the boy ended up bunking with a buddy. The Cubmaster and I spent the rest of the evening sharpening our knives for when the parents arrived Sunday morning.