Twocubdad

The pushups are a bad idea, no matter whose idea it was or how long they've been used. The trainer who reamed your leader was correct. But more significantly, I believe you have discipline and punishment confused. We instill discipline in Scouts by teaching them how to conduct themselves properly, thus making punishment unnecessary. Scouts don't get punished -- at least not by Scout leader or other Scouts. No where in the training or any of the leader manuals will you learn how to punish a Scout. Punishment is up to the parents. We can help a Scout correct his behavior, but punishment is the responsibility of the parent. The day camp I help run has only one rule regarding behavior: If you want to be a Cub Scout and do the fun things Cub Scout do then you must behave like a Cub Scout. Misbehaving Scouts are sent to me. The first visit (usually) we sit down and talk about the Law of the Pack. The second time you go home. Period. If counseling and all the other discipline tricks haven't worked, I'd hand the boy my cell phone and tell him to call his parents to come get him and to please wait by the door until they arrive.

I agree with the above two gentlemen. (Both NJ and I have philosophical objections to using the phrase "ditto".) I tell our parents to make the change whenever size becomes an issue, although I'm sure peer pressure is a factor. No one wants to be the last kid in the den wearing blue. Not that it really matters to TD's question, but the last I heard was that the Webelos diamond badge would continue because the LDS units will still use it. The rest of us will need the oval badge as there will no longer be a slot for the diamond on the uniforms.

Welcome to our little electronic camp fire. I hope you brought you own chair, the ground can be hard. Whether or not you consider pushups to be hazing is a matter of semantics. Clearly, however, making a Scout "drop and give me 20" is a form or physical punishment which is also prohibited by BSA (pages 4 and 5 of the Guide to Safe Scouting). But just as important the policy is that making Scouts do pushups is a poor way of handling discipline. I know some units do and it is considered a light-hearted punishment. But there is the potential for abuse and sets a poor example for junior leaders. (If 20 is good, isn't 40 better? Or 100? Or maybe something even harder that pushups?) It also violates the principle that we "praise in public, criticize in private." It sets up boys to be humiliated in in front of their friend. There are too many other constructive ways of dealing with problems.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Wow! Now there's an idea. I've asked for two years to have all the Cub Scout rank, arrow point, belt loop and Webelos activity pin card made available in sheets. With over 100 kids in our pack we can go through a couple hundred cards a month. It takes our poor advancement chairman a couple hours to hand write all those cards. Does Clyde have a friend on the Cub Scout side?

Walk away? Is that what you would do Bob? Perhaps it's just my nature, but I'd have a difficult time going quite so quietly into that long night.

I have one boy in that situation this year and two last year. There is no reason a boy can't join Scouting as a Webelos II. The thing to do is to lay all the options out for the Scout and his parents and let them decide the route to take. But first, double check the boy's birthday to make sure he will be old enough to cross over to the troop with his buddies if he does not earn the AOL. What I tell boys and their parents in this situation is that they have basically two options. One, if they are really organized and work hard, it is possible to earn the AoL by cross over. Make sure the Scout knows that he will need to complete a lot of the requirements on his own as the returning Scouts have completed much of this work last year. It would help if you have the year's program planned out and can tell the boy what will be covered with the den. One of our two new boys from last year did this. He (and I'm sure his parents) made a notebook with a section for each activity pin he needed and worked through the requirements. It also took a commitment from his WDL to meet with him weekends to sign off on the requirements at he completed them. The second option is not to worry about completing the AoL, but to look at the coming six months as an opportunity to gear up for Boy Scouts. He can still learn much of the AoL material he will need as a Boy Scout. Emphasize that he still gets to participate in all the activities and the come cross over time, he will be a full-fledged Boys Scout just like everyone else. Send the boy and his parents home with a Webelos book and let them decide what is best for them.

Thanks to everyone who PM'd me on this. I sort of close the phonetics but couldn't have gotten the correct spelling in a million years.

With all due respect to you Foto, it sounds to me that you are just burned out on this kid. We've all been there, investing time and effort into a boy who drops despite our best efforts. At some point you just throw your hands up and decide the resources are better spent on Scouts who are sticking with the program. Unfortunately in this situation, I don't think you've made a good case for denying the boy the trip. He isn't a discipline problem and if he is trying influence other boys to quit you've not mentioned that. The worse thing that is happening is that the fact of his quitting is getting some buzz among the other Scouts. There's not much you or the Scout can do about that. I think the most you can do is go to the dad and suggest that since they are dropping out that they consider giving up their slot on the trip to a new Scout. But unless they drop the trip on their own initiative, you absolutely owe them their money back.

School Night for Scouting aka School Night Roundup or just Roundup, our annual membership drive.

And that's not a possible outcome for those 21 or older? Besides, our DE would hardly consider that a negative outcome.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Violations of most G2SS policies come with an obvious down side. Swimming without adequate supervision, riding in the back of a pickup truck, unmarried individuals sharing a tent all have fairly obvious consequences. But someone help me out here. I can't think of any negative outcome of married couple sharing accommodations simply because they are under 21 that wouldn't also be true for a couple over 21.

I thought I was the only one who couldn't get into the restricted area of the OA forum until Eamonn mentioned the same problem in another post. Is there some way we can comfirm the correct spelling of the "password"? If someone with access can PM me possibly I can convince you of my OA credentials and get the correct password? Actually, this is sort of a funny story. During my ordeal (30+ years ago) when the "password" was whispered to me, I didn't understand it. Of course it really was an appropriate time to say, "Excuse me but I didn't hear that right, can you repeat it please?" A year or so later, about the time I was going for Brotherhood, I fessed up to a friend on the ceremony team that I didn't know what the "password" was. He said nobody really knows what what it is, that's why they mumble when they tell you. He said he remembered it because it very loosely sounded like the name of a character on a TV show at the time. We both had a good laugh over it. Someone please contact me. I can at least give you the name of the TV character.

The joining requirements were discussed in a thread earlier this summer. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=68061#id_68220

Believe it or not, I've actually built a state health department spec outhouse before and I've never seen a pit latrine at a Scout camp which met the specs. Most camp latrines I've seen look like they were built as OA ordeal projects -- poor use of materials and workmanship. The most common problem is that the concrete looks to have been finished with a leaf rake. This makes them impossible to keep clean and for water to drain away properly. The biggest problem though is that a single pit latrine just isn't made to support 20 or 30 people living in a typical campsite. Someone above mentioned plans from the national office. I would want to check that out. But if I were responsible for the plans myself, I would have a qualified engineer design the system capacities. I'd also look into some of the systems available that activly compost the material and have tall vents -- not just plain pits in the ground. I would also select materials with an eye toward maintenance. This means no raw wood or concrete. Even with epoxy-coated masonry all the little nooks and crannies look nasty even if it is clean. This applies to both latrines and plumbed facilities. Say what you want about boys today being woosie about pit latrines, but the truth is nice facilities are an important part of a good camp experience. I don't care how great the program is, a camp with bad food, gross outhouses and leaky tents isn't going to attract many campers. Boys may talk a good game, but no one enjoys living in filth for a week.

If the boys are over 14, why not register them as a Venture crew? From a program standpoint, that is the better fit.

A couple points: 1) Check with your DE and/or council registrar before promising anything. If the boy's age/grade don't fit his registration, Scoutnet won't take his registrations. 2) Earning his AoL is no longer an automatic pass into a Boy Scout troop. The new joining rules requirement boys to be at least 10 even with an AoL. You need to run the math on his birthday. 3) All other things being equal, you need to let his parents decide what's best for him. Explain the rules and requirements to them and leave it up to them.

Why is it a felony for this guy to do himself what the local animal shelter does 100 times a day. Is there a big difference to the dogs between the .38 and a needle? Just because some of us may find this distasteful we're going to put this guy in jail? Don't get me wrong, people who torture animal or neglect them to the point of starvation deserve what they get. But millions of animals are killed every day. Does the method -- as long as it is quick and humane -- really matter?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

And 10 more tonight at school night. Total of 30. Probably 4-5 more apps outstanding.

My mistake, I though I read that ATC recharters in December. I'll spot you the nickel on the kit, but according to the chart I have 5 months of BL is $4.50. What I'm trying to show is that instead of being within loose change of $20 we're talking about $6 or $7 per boy. In most councils that would add up to a significant amount of money.

Just as a point of clarification, shouldn't the fees be as follows: 4 months registration $3.40 (I've got the chart right here) 4 months Boys Life 3.60 Insurance 1.00 PWD kit & box 3.50 Total $11.00 Why would the council collect next year's dues in advance? At recharter time wouldn't you have some boys rechartering and some not? I thought the purpose of the prorated dues was to have all memberships expire along with the unit's charter. I understand that some units -- mine included -- collect the recharter dues in Sept. and holds them until recharter. But this is simply to avoid two rounds of collections. Everyone still recharter at the same time. Regarding the PWD kit: According to our DE, the car, the box (it's more of a pencil case just big enough for the car -- MY lunch won't fit in it ), and a "driver's license" is a package deal from national all for $3.50.

I'm not involved in training so I look at this from the point of view of a consumer of training services. My advice is for you to look at this as a marketing/customer service problem. Think creatively about how you can deliver your service to "new customers." Our council training sessions are always on Saturday at one of about three locations. If that doesn't work for you, you're out of luck. Obviously, weekends are best for most folks and that's where you're going to get your biggest turnout. Think outside the box. How about some of these Monday holidays? Not that many people really go out of town. Would more attend if they could bring their children? What if you piggy-back training onto existing programs? Can training be offered during summer camp? Secondly, ask. Pull the names of 15 untrained leaders and ask them what you can do to make it easier for them to get trained. Don't make them think you're trying to corner them, but let them know you are doing research to improve the program. Foto is on the right track. We have discovered with day camp that relying on Roundtables and the chain of command to get information disseminated doesn't work too well. Something the Red Cross in our area has begun doing is sending me a post card saying "You are eligible to donate blood again on (date) and here are the next three bloodmobiles in your area." See what resources the council has to send a postcard to each untrained leader letting them know of upcoming sessions in their area. I obviously don't know how big your district is, but even if you have to manually sort through a set of mailing labels shouldn't take too long.

We don't know what the evidence is one way or another. But you don't mind dismissing the opinions and/or information provided by fellow volunteer ATCprofesr. And when I preface my comments with "For the sake of argument..." and "Those are three guesses..." hardly constitutes criticism of those involved.

"When is your recharter date? If it is in September, the $20 is correct." Since those were the very first words I wrote in this thread I saw no reason to repeat it. I hardly "completely ignored" it. Besides, I thought you did a good job of covering the options in which the council is infallible.

I think what you are proposing is great. Back in the day, those were the kinds of things our OA chapter did. We were in a small district which usually had a spring and fall camporee. The chapter didn't really run them, but we were certainly the service corps (read grunt labor). We parked cars, handled check-in, built the lodge fires for the campfires, sold milk for each meal, and depending on the program ran some of the stations. We probably only had 10-12 active guys in the chapter and tended to be the older guys who had been-there-done-that as far as the camporees went. Helping run things kept us interested when we otherwise wouldn't have been interested in the camporees.

The issue here is not whether we try to add sizzle to Roundup and make it appealing for the boys or not. It isn't a question of whether or not this costs money. The question is who pays for it and how. Just for the sake of argument, and since ATC hasn't reposted with a breakdown, let's say that the powers that be at the council decided the council needs the money and makes an above-board decision to create a $6 local registration fee that every pays, then fine. But be honest about it and be prepared to justify the added cost to those paying it. Or even if they make an economic decision that adding the cost of the kits to the fee and giving the boys the cars will yield a net increase registrations, I'm still okay with that. But if they are looking at a registration costing $14 and saying to themselves "hey, most folks are happy to fork over $20 for Scouts. We can round this up, keep $6 for the council and no one will be the wiser," that's dishonest. But those are just three guesses. We haven't heard what the real situation is.