Twocubdad

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged... Den Leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips." (Guide to Safe Scouting, page 21, 4th bullet). Page 22, under Pack Overnighters says "In most cases each youth memberwill be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responisble to a specific adult." I belive the common understand of that is that a Scout can camp with another adult (small G guardian) who is directly responsible. I can't find the reference right now, but I my understanding is that an adult can be responsible for only one boy other that his/her own children and that the leader of the group cannot take responsibility for any addition youth. "When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult other than his parent or guardian." (G2SS, p 7, #7). So no, each father and son would need their own tent or the two boys could share one tent and the dads another.

Two words: Krispy Kreme

In the morning following a campfire a small container of ashes is collected from the previous night's fire. The ashes are saved until the next campout and added to that campfire. This continues for years and years and in some small, metaphysical way, the ashes from all the campfires are linked. The story is that B-P started this tradition. There are numerous ash pedigrees floating around that you can add to your campfire and claim the heritage of those ashes. If anyone wants to PM me, I'll be glad to send a vial of ashes and can e-mail the pedigree chart.

Not to put words in your mouth, Merlyn, but I would think you would be okay with this arrangement. The charter is held by a private organization. Youth can still participate in the club and choose not to join the crew. The teacher is still advising all the youth regardless of their membership. I can forsee one potential problem if the Venture side of the organization chose to participate in activities that the club-only members would be procluded from. I'm sure it would depend on how much of a firewall is maintained between the school side and the Venture side. Essentially this is just a shell game that allows the club to use BSA facilities at a reduced rate and pumps the local BSA's membership numbers. A better question, albeit probably one for another thread, is why the council would go along with this? If the fishing club is operating as business as usual with no intention of offering a true Venture program or promoting the mission of the BSA, why do we want them? At another level, when the crew shows up at the scout camp with a bunch of club members who chose (or weren't allowed) to join the crew, where is the liability for those folks?

Our pack has done this for about three years. A year ago at camp school we got ashes with a pedigree that goes back to 1933. Includes a campfire lit by Lady Baden-Powell, every National Jamboree and probably 20 or 25 Philmont treks. A lot of this is lost on Cub Scouts but the parents appreciate the significance and hopefully the boys will at some point.

Mama always said everyone has something to contribute, even if it is being a bad example. Merlyn can be his own worst enemy. Referring to the BSA as a "loathsome, dishonest organization" isn't going to win many hearts and minds around here. Neither does he know when to quit. This thread being an execellent example of that. However, he is always consistent and his arguments logical and well documented. You can disagree with his opinions and despise some of his comments, but he at least makes you think.

My pack pays adult registration fees and for training. Wood Badge hasn't come up. It's being offered again in the spring but I'm the only one likely to take it and I wouldn't ask the pack to cover the $300 cost. Webelos Resident camp covers the cost of the first two leaders and charges $35 for others. We also pay for that. I don't know that we've gone anywhere where gas is an issue, but since we're cub and parents must attend, everyone takes care of their own transportation. To my knowledge, my older son's troop doesn't pay for anything. I even paid the troop $10 for my registration even though I didn't really owe it (being dual-registered in the troop and pack I should only have to pay one fee.) Even driving to camp this summer the troop didn't reimburse me for the 200+ mile round trip. One parent did sick a fin in my pocket.

As we consider this an electronic campfire I suppose we could have an electronic book burning. You've got the ability to squelch both Merlyn and/or any given thread. Why don't you exercise that ability and leave the rest of us to make the same decision?

Bob what do you think is the upper limit on the size of a pack, or is there one? For the sake of argument let's say there are no physical limitations on meeting space.

Eamonn, keep in mind we're talking about two similar problems with different solutionL: too many boy in a den and too many boys in a pack. I felt like I addressed your question when I previously wrote, "Having too many boys in one den is a pack problem, pure and simple. No one is -- at least not me -- is suggesting that the district has any responsible for organizing dens or recruiting additional den leaders." And you are correct that we probably wouldn't be too appreciative of someone from the district meddling. If there are insufficient units to serve the boys in an area do you not agree that is a problems for the district to solve? The district doing their job of recruiting new units helps us with the overall problem of too dang many boys. So we take your advice and split the bear den into to dens of 6 and 7 boys. What happens when we get another ten boy sign up? A pack cannot indefinitely add dens and maintain the quality of their program. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Let's not confuse dens and patrols. I'll agree with you that the key determinant of patrol size is the number of boys a 12- or 13-year-old is able to sucessfully lead. There may be good reasons to cap a den at 6 to 10 boys, but the ability of the adult den leader to lead that many boys isn't a big one. Take school room sizes for example. The limit on public school class room size here is 22 for first and second graders and 28 for third through fifth grades. Of course that varies by state. You can certainly argue that class size is based on economic constraints and that schools and teachers are constantly clammering for smaller classes. But still, most classes make it through the day with 25 or so kid and one adult. To rephrase the point I had tried to make earlier, there are more considerations in deciding den size than the BSA recommendation. As we've discussed at length, one is most certainly the availabilty of leaders. But in our over-sized den we have a trained DL and ADL plus another newly recruited ADL who is signed up for training in a couple weeks. The guy we just recruited would be a wonderful DL and would be more than willing to take over if necessary. But his son and the son of the current DL are best friends and wouldn't dream of splitting into different dens. Bob alluded to the number of friends boys naturally have at a given age. Originally patrols and dens were built around these natural groups of friends. Even in my day our den was made up of the guys in the neighborhood Monday afternoons we all did Cub Scouts. Every other day of the week the same group of boys played ball or rode bikes. These friendships and the unit cohesion it brings is important. I really believe one of the greatest indicators of a boy's success in Scouting is being in Scouts with his friends. In our situation with our big Bear den, after several long conversations we've decided we're better off keeping the boys together with their friends in one big den than we are by splitting them up to meet the recommendations for den size. We've discussed possible leadership arrangements and den rosters. But the parents and leaders of the den think the current arrangement is best.

E-- I'm not sure you're understanding my point, or even if you are responding to my point. I'm having a little trouble following that last post. Having too many boys in one den is a pack problem, pure and simple. No one is -- at least not me -- is suggesting that the district has any responsible for organizing dens or recruiting additional den leaders. Having too many boys in one pack is a district problem. If I'm the leader of a unit which has maxxed out -- either because of space limitatins or due to having reached a practical size limit (which I believe my pack has) -- I have only one way to limit the size of the unit: turn boys away. Aside from the obvious down side, turning boys away can't help the district make it's numbers. Recruiting new units is a district responsibility. And obviously the district will put a unit at any CO willing to accept one. But in the crush to meet unit recruitment goals, they go after whatever unit they can get, not the ones they need. As a result we end up with Venture crews registered with troops where there is no real intent to run a true crew and packs registered at little country churches who can hardly scrape together five boys for the charter. More difficult is doing the research to determine where units are needed and seeking out a CO in that area.

Pack and troop 525 in Asheboro starting in '67 until they threw me out. Used to do a lot of camping at what is now the state zoo. Did my OA ordeal there. Camped at Mt. Shepard a bunch too. Summer camp was at Camp Wenasa, which I understand is now condos.

I would add that you should to the math now and let your DE, district chairman or district membership chairman know that there will be potentially X number of boys you won't be able to accommodate. Don't wait until cross over where the boys could be left without a unit. I plan to have this conversation myself at our next district meeting.

Welcome aboard! You're from my neck of the woods. I grew up in troop and pack 525

Wouldn't it be easier to support one Unit with more Dens than two separate Units - which certainly requires more administrative work and more Leadership manhours - more meeting places, more Pack equipment, etc. Up to a point. The recommended size for a pack is about 60 boys. When you are our size we can spend an entire pack meeting handing out awards, which is really boring except for the three minutes while you're getting your badge. Our Pinewood Derby takes 8 hours to run and is essentially a single-elimination race. We look like an army division going camping -- try feeding 150 people while cooking over a campfire. What I meant about relying on the goodwill of the existing pack is that even if the district doesn't do the hard work of recruiting new packs in our area, they know we will won't turn boys away, even if our unit is painfully big. maybe if we cap our membership and start turning boys away maybe the district will get serious about new units. But how bad does that stink? Had we done that this year, we would have turned away probably 15 boys. Heck, that's a decent pack right there. Do we have the leadership to start a second pack? In theory, yes. But splitting existing units -- if that's what you are suggesting -- is a really lousy way of starting a new one. Been there done that. That route has a very high potential for becoming political and devisive. On the other hand I would be more that happy to go to Scout night roundup and help a new unit recruit boys and leaders and even sit on some of their leaders' meeting to help them get started. If certain leaders and families and leaders decide to transfer, that's their decision to make.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Hey, repeating that head-shaving stunt may make a good den meeting program! Sounds like you're on the right track. Take the training and read both your son's Tiger book and the Cub Scout Leader Handbook. Cut the pack leadership some slack until you have a better chance to see what's going on. Cub Scout activities can look like absolute chaos unless you understand what's happening. Part of what we try to do is let boys be boys and run together with their buds. Some parents don't understand that we're creating a environment where they can do this safely. Welcome to the campfire!

Yes we do. And coincidently, BSA publishes them in a book, "Cub Scout Leader Handbook." (Sorry, I haven't had a chance to be sarcastic today.) Seriously, 58, if you're thinking in terms of a big bylaws/policy manual, they are generally more trouble than they are worth. A) someone spends a ton of time writing them. B) they spawn controversy. If there is a written policy about something which is called into questions, people will argue over interpretation, wording, intent, etc., etc. There's enough of that going on over BSA policies. A properly functioning pack committee doesn't need policy or bylaws beyond that established by BSA. If your committee is debating and voting on stuff, they're going about it all wrong. Committees should be managed by concensus. If there is a disagreement, ultimately the person responsible for that area decides, generally the Cubmaster regarding program and the committee chairman regarding adminstration, the COR regarding leadership and membership issues. (That's a VERY broad over simplification.) But take budget as an example. Early on, the committee (which in Cubs included committee members and den leaders) reviews the prior budget and makes suggestions. The treasurer and committee chairman develop the new budet and share it with the full committee. Hopefully everyone agrees with it. But say that there are a few members who feel strongly that dues are too high. Discuss the issue, think through alternatives and try to come to a resolution. But ultimately the committee chairman is responsible to the Chartered Organization for the financial health of the unit and he/or she makes the final call. Other than stuff like Pinewood derby rules I can think of only one "policy" our pack has that isn't found in the Scout literature, and even it is really an extension of the BSA rules. If one parent is taking responsibility for another child on a campout we require both parents and the tour leader to sign a form acknowledging who is responsible for the Scout. The back of the form is a Class I medical form with the permission to treat information. We do this in response to an idiot parent who dropped their son off at a campout assuming that their neighbor would be responsible. The neighbor didn't know this and went home at dark. We called the idiots to come get their son, but they had gone out of town for the weekend. Sheesh!

Welcome to the campfire. You'll need to bring your own chair and we'll let you know when you're responsible for the cracker barrel. Enjoy your time with your son. It goes by fast. Two years from now he's going to want to tent with his buddies, not you. Two years after that you'll do well to get a glimpse of him as he and his pals run off somewhere. It is different on this side of the picnic table. Different but still lots of fun.

Ooo, ooo, ooo (waving hand wildly) Can I answer? I just took SM/ASM training this weekend. This may be an over simplifications, but think chain of command. I would go to the SPL ask him a question prompting him to think about the Scouts' behavior, like, "Is everyone doing what they're supposed to be?" or "How are we doing versus the program plan? Are we on track to get out on time?" It's a bit of a game, but the point is to prompt the SPL to focus on the particular behavior. Less effective is "Do you think Charlie should be swinging from the rafters?" In turn the SPL will do the same thing with the patrol leaders who will then have the same conversation with the particular Charlie. If the problem isn't solved, it's handed back up the chain of command. But even still, don't let the SPL pass the problem along to you too quickly. Coach the SPL on how to handle the problem and pass it back down the chain. If the problem behavior continues and you need to get involved, do so without making it seem like you are the final authority. Out of that immediate loop, sit down with the boy causing the problem and talk to him about his behavior. That is the idea. Obviously there are situations where other concerns, like safety issues, don't allow the luxury of going through all that. Also, how you deal with the SPL and how he deals with the PL will depend on where they are in their leadership abilities.

That makes no sense. Are you taking apps on both parents? What happens if a grandparent needs to accompany a Tiger to a meeting? How about the rest of the Pack. We have a large percentage of parents in older dens who regularly attend meetings. Why don't they require apps on them? How about campouts when we require a parent to attend with every Scout?

What I want the district to do is to charter and support new units in the area instead of relying on the goodwill of the existing packs to accept new Scouts even when they are bursting at the seams.

We're in the same situation with our Bear den. They've got about 13 now, assuming a couple boys have in fact dropped. Of the new boys, more than half were recruited by boys already in the den. It's really tough to tell boys they can't be together in that situations. I wish I had the option to refer boys to the other packs in the area, but they all enforce strict membership limits. The closest pack in the area has one den per year and won't accept more than 10 boys per den, period. They come to school night with a list of open slots. If they have room for 2 bears and you happen to be the third bear in line, they won't take your application. They send them across the cafeteria to us knowing we will do what we can to accommodate everyone. Frankly, I'm tiring of the arrangement. I think we're up to 36 new boys this fall which will put us at 127 total. That's a net increase of 16 over last year.

Just to be clear, ScoutNut, if they are registering as a Tiger Den Leader they have to complete an adult volunteer application, including a SSN.

Our DE specifically told us not to collect SSNs, except on the adult apps. They're tired of the complaints and having to deal with it.