Twocubdad

Committeechair -- there's no reason you can't still be QU even with declining membership numbers. Membership growth is one of six optional criteria of which you need to meet two. Our pack has been QU for years and we pay no attention to the membership number. With 110-120 boys, we don't particularly want more.

Dear HateYourUserName: For the reasons described above, it's not technically possible to truely merge two units. One would dissolve and one survive, or possibly both would dissolve and a new unit created. But those are issues that can be worked through. Yet there is nothing which prevents two groups of rational adults deciding that they can better serve the youth in their units by combining the two units. If you reach an informed decision that merging is best for the boys, and can get the chartered organizations to agree, then so be it. Don't, however, expect to get a lot of warm fuzzies from your DE and district leaders. Their goals are to enroll more units, not see them diminished. There are many good reasons for having two units, some of which are being discussed in the current thread "Need Some Help" Don't take it as a light decision or a quick fix. Joining two weak units doesn't necessarily make one strong one. I also love my uniform.

I've not taken IOLS, but I have taken WLOS and BALOO. My understanding is that there is a fair amount of difference between the Boy Scout course and the Webelos course. WLOS cover health and safety, a long module on how to teach the outdoor-oriented Webelos activity pins, a some very basic camping skills. IOLS, from what I understand, covers camping skills more in depth, the patrol method, leave no trace and the health and safety stuff. Of course there is some overlap, but they are different enough that they are interesting and valuable even if you have previously taken one or the other. Webelos leaders need to take WLOT. On the other hand, there nothing in BALOO that isn't covered in WLOT, and except for the activity pins, there's nothing in WLOT you didn't hear in BALOO. In my opinion -- not that anyone cares -- the activity pin stuff needs to be covered in Webelos Leader position specific training and then just have one certification course for Cub Scout camping.

In the future it may be beneficial if we distinguish between discrimination and illegal discrimination. True, it is perfectly legal for airlines to discriminate against those without a valid pilot's license. It is also legal for Presbyterians to discrimate against Baptist when hiring a minister. Neither do we care if you can discriminate between a Tampa Nugget and a Partagas #10. There are, however, traits proscribed by law on which it is illegal to discriminate. In most settings it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race, creed, color, national origin, sex, sexual preference, age and a whole host of other things with varying exceptions. I think it is a safe assumption that in most of Merlyn's posts he means illegal discrimination.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

There are many good reasons for having two units instead of one. The very least of which is from the DE's perspective his job performance is based on growth in members and units (among other things). If the weaker unit drops he or she has to recruit another unit just to stay even. But as I said, that's the least of the reasons. Better reasons is that two units have more potential room for adding boys. Absorbing 10 boys may not be a problem for the stronger unit now, but what happens in two years when they are bursting at the seams and don't have room for all the boys who want to be Scouts? Two units increase the chances or boys and their families finding a comfortable fit. Probably the #1 issue among parents when selecting a unit from among our local packs is which night do you meet. Monday doesn't work for you? The pack down the street meets on Tuesday. And how many times on this forum has someone written of a problem with their unit's leadership or program and we suggest they find another unit? That's hard to do in a one-pack town.

How's this: The Wolf's Ears Narrator: Once upon a time there was a wolf pack which, like most wolf packs, enjoyed walking in the forest and having fun together. As wolves sometimes do when they are having a good time, they can be noisy; talking and howling as they go. (Wolf pack walks toward center stage, laughing, talking and occasionally howling as they go.) Narrator: And like all wolf packs, when theyre in the woods playing hard, they get hungry! All Wolves: Man, Im hungry. Me, too. Lets eat. Im starved Wolf #1: Hey guys, I think theres a rabbit over there in the bushes, lets catch him. (Wolf pack runs yelling and making lots of noise towards rabbit. Rabbit jumps up and runs away.) All Wolves: Dang, he got away! How did he knew we were here? Im still hungry! Narrator: Lucky for the rabbit, the wolf pack hadnt learned to be quiet in the woods while they were hunting. But worse yet for our Wolf Pack, there are dangers in the forest too. (Wolf pack walks back across stage, again laughing, talking and howling toward a bear hiding in the bushes) Wolf #1 Hey guys, be quiet! I think there may be a bear in the . (SCREAM) (Bear jumps out of the bushes and devours wolf pack.) Narrator: (With hands over eyes) Ooooh, tell me when its over!Fortunately for us, there was another wolf pack in the forest. These wolves also enjoyed being in the forest and had a lot of fun playing with their fellow wolves. But this was a smart wolf pack I think they are members of Pack XX. They had a secret signal to let each other know when there was food or danger around. When one wolf heard something, instead of yelling at the other wolf, he would silently perk up his wolf ears to signal his buddies. (Show Cub Scout sign) The other wolves would immediately stop whatever they were doing and be perfectly quiet. They would signal back to their leader by also perking up their wolf ears. (A second wolf pack crosses the stage, laughing and talking as before. When they approach the rabbit Wolf #2 gives the Cub Scout sign and the pack immediately gets quiet and still. Wolf #2 quietly points to the rabbit and makes some silly bunny-looking gestures. The pack quietly surrounds the rabbit, and jumps him. Conveniently, the rabbit has a stash of jerky or another snack on him which the wolves much on as they walk away.) All Wolves: Boy, this is good rabbit. Mmmm, Mmmm, Mmmm. (With tongue stuck out) Ive got a hare in my mouth! Narrator: And fortunately for our wolves, this same trick work when there is danger about. (Again making noise, the wolf pack walks towards the bear. When he sees the bear, Wolf #2 gives the Cub Scout sign. All the wolves return the sign and get quiet. Wolf #2 makes some silly bear-like gestures and the pack quietly tip-toes around the bear.) Narrator: Like the smart wolf pack, Cub Scouts use a similar silent signal when they need everyones attention. When something important is about to happen, you leaders will show you the Cub Scout sign, which looks a whole lot like the wolfs ears. When you see the sign up, you should put up your Cub Scout sign, stop what you are doing, be still and quiet. Dont yell for to be quiet, just stand there silently like the wolves until everyone in the pack sees the sign. Lets practice it a couple times.

One thing you can do from the commissioner standpoint is make sure there is a level playing field at school night. In our district when two or more units recruit at one school a commissioner is assigned to emcee the program. Packs are not permitted to "campaign" for Scouts. Any displays are to be generic and promote Scouting in general, not a specific pack. I'm sure someone will point out that this is a socialist approach. Maybe. That packs with better programs should be allowed to flourish. Free markets and all that, yadda, yadda, yadda. If it were purely a matter of better program, I'd agree. But as a commissioner representing the district, you have an interest in seeing both pack thrive. The best thing for the struggling pack is for them to get an infusion of new Scouts, parents, and leaders. Probably a more typical situation is to substitute "new pack" for "struggling pack." The new unit doesn't yet have at Pinewood Derby track and it can bring and set up. It doesn't a dad with a laptop and projector who can show a Powerpoint slideshow of the pack's trip to the Grand Canyon. Strong units have more than enough recruiting advantages through word of mouth and the individual recruiting that goes on between boys and families. Helping to direct recruiting to new and struggling units is one of the best way you can help them.

Back to how we define and measure program quality-- No, Bob, I really wasn't talking about the Quality Unit criteria. As we seem to agree and is often said, quality unit is the minimal requirements. If anyone is unfamiliar with the requirments you can find the form at http://www.scouting.org/forms/ about half way down the page. They are really pretty easy to meet. So beyond Quality Unit, what are the objective ways BSA measures the quality of a unit's program that you previously mentioned?

Bob, maybe you can list some of the metrics by which BSA measures quality at the unit level, including the scores at which BSA considers them to be "quality." I assume you are not talking about the Quality Unit criteria since those are really minimum standards. I've never really understood how meeting minimal standard makes you a quality unit. Seems to be an oxymoron, but I suppose that's another topic.

How about a Scout Executive who sets his own membership requirements for new units and refuses to accept your application for a new Venture crew, even though it meets the published standards?

Death

Sorry, Bob, not going to bite. Is there anyone who doesn't understand that whether I list three, eight or 800 elements that you wont find someway that a "good" leader will overcome them? Ah, the beauty of hypothetical problems! But besides, your question is based on a false premise. No one I know -- certainly not me -- has suggested that some combination of elements will replace leaders. All we've said is that there are elements outside of Scouting that may affect a quality program.

I'll answer your question, Bob: Nothing. Nothing affects the quality of a program more than the ability of the leaders. But that is very different from your statement in the first thread where you wrote, "The ability of a scout unit to achieve its mission is based on one thing, and one thing only. The quality of it's adult leaders." And that difference is the point Hunt, JD and myself have been trying to make. Quality of leadership may be the most important factor, but it is not the only factor.Scouting doesn't occur in a vacuum. An argument could be made that the content of this entire forum over the two years I've been a member has been about the factors that impact the quaility of the program: attendance, parental support, funding, CO support, quality of summer camps, cost of uniforms, and yes, the quality of leadership.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Holy smoke! I though our 120-boy pack was too big. How in the world do you handle pack meetings?

Normally the totem is retired and the Tiger patch get sewn on the left shirt pocket. But if a boy is proud of his totem and wants to wear it, I'm sure not going to say anything to him.

I'm confused, Bob. Do you want to talk about social and economic forces and their effect on Scouting or that the quality of the program is dependant on the quality of leadership? I'm not sure where you stand on the former, but I believe we agree on the latter.

The initial question, "Can an effective scouting program be delivered to a community regardless of its economic and social make-up?" is worded so that the obvious answer supports the point about quality of leadership. Of course strong, motivated leaders can overcome the social and economic problems of their unit and community to deliver a good Scout program. But answering that question only requires that we look at the sucessful units. We all know of units where extraordinary leaders committed to the program have overcome much to deliver a good program. We all also know of units with every advantage have failed due to poor leadership. If the point is that the quality of a program is highly dependant on the the quality of the leadership, first of all I agree with you. But secondly, let's change the subject of this thread. Social and economic forces have a great effect on the Scouting program. That councils must provide some units in underpriviledged ares with paid leaders and significant financial and logistical support is prima facia evidence of that. I'm sure all of us here consider ourselves good, sucessful Scouters. But how sucessful would we be without the parental support we enjoy? What if all our "good" parents work two or three jobs to support their families with no time left for Scouts? Would we still be sucessful if asking for a couple dollars to cover the cost of food for a weekend meant that half of our boys couldn't go? Would our activities and outings be of the same quality if we spent half our time scrounging for gear and supplies instead of concentrating on the program? Or what if we are in an immigrant community with no cultural tradition for volunteer organizatons (and a really serious distrust of ANYBODY in uniform)? Can you really say that overcoming all these hurdles -- in addition to all the other things required to run a good program -- doesn't have an effect on the program?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

First let me say that I don't know a whole lot about the non-traditional programs in Scouting and I am open to anyone who would like to educate me. However it seems to me that the entire special needs program is based on the premise that socio-economic factors make the delivery of a traditional Scout program difficult or impossible. I whole-heartedly agree that the quality of a program is tied directly to the quality of adult leadership. But in thses special needs units the social and economic circumstances of the units and neighborhoods directly affect the quality of the adult leadership. Consequently the council provides paraprofessionals to lead the units and provides financial support at both the unit and individual level.

The GS national web site has an unit locator pagethat will help you find a local unit. www.girlscouts.org

How does this work? Are the segments generic or is the design of each segment specific to the activity? Is there a limit to the number of segments you can get? Do you complete the circle at some point or is it ever-expanding? We don't have anything like that locally, but sounds like an interesting idea for pack awards.

In fact a few years ago we had a 5-year-old first grader join the pack as a Tiger with a birthday sometime after the first of the year. He had moved here from another school district with a whole different set of rules. Six weeks into the year, the new school and his parents felt it would be better if he were to repeat kindergarten and moved him back. At that point he met neither the age or grade requirement and he had to drop out. Unfortunately, his mom was the den leader and also dropped leaving us in a bind with that den.

Are you talking about EPIRBs? I've yet to see one much under $1000. The ones I'm familiar with are marine grade. Are you talking about something different?

An absolutely reasonable approach, foto. I don't think many parents understand that they can purchase additional rank badges. My son just started Webelos. He needed new pants, so we when ahead with the "tan/olive" (we cool, acco?) uniform. I bought a full set of Cub rank badges to go with it. Our Scout shop sells a diamond shaped plastic holder which we are using. I know the holder isn't official (and the national Scout shops won't sell them), but I'm not taking the chance of wrecking the tan shirt for the few months it takes him to earn his Webelos badge. We'll take our chances with the uniform cops.

As I tell parents during our Roundup presentation, no boy is ever kept out of Scouting because of finances. As others have noted, there are resources available. But first consider that there may be more to the story than you know. We had a Webelos II den leader who refused to pay dues for her son with no real explaination (other than she couldn't stand the Cubmaster at the time). Her son received his Webelos and AoL badges (which our council provides at no cost) but the pack wouldn't pay for anything else (belt loops, activity pins, etc.) Every month the mom would show up at the pack meetings with a bag of awards she had purchased herself. That was more a case of stubborness than anything else. It's possible that there is more involved here than simply financial need. Secondly, unless you are the pack treasurer, committee chairman, COR, maybe the boy's den leader (or perhaps parent?), I'm not sure why you have this information. Whether or not a family can pay dues should be a confidential matter. Third, there are resources available, as others have noted. I've got a boy in that situation now. Since he is a Webelos (and a BIG Webelos at that)our brother troop gave him a uniform out of their uniform closet. The pack is willing to waive the activity dues ($40) and I'm talking to our DE about to find out what the council can do, hopefully cover the registration fee and Boys Life. There's is one person in the council who handles this and I'm waiting to hear from him.

With parental commitment like that I hate to see her go, but we can use the space!