blw2

OUr apparently do want them as well.... although their affirmation of this predates my troop membership... I'm in the same boat. I never did like our color either.... but that's a personal opinion and I don't matter anyway.... Troop has the scout shop black with silver trim selected as their troop standard. This predates any effort of boy lead, back when i was in the pack, but apparently a year or so ago it was decided by the scouts to keep it. If it were up to me, I'd want the same as duct tape does.... patrol standards, not troop standards and if I was a scout where my opinion would matter, I'd probably push for square neckers, maybe a nice absorbent microfiber.... square to increase utility microfiber for use as one of those new fangled high-tech evaporative cooling towels on the other hand ... maybe I'd just go for an off the shelf thing so they're easier to replace....

this just in.... since use of computer keyboards has been known to cause carpal tunnel syndrome, a painful malady, the BSA is immediately banning the use of computers by it's members.

junior admin rights.... now that's an interesting idea. don't think troopwebhost has anything like that, but I'm gonna look into it. Eventually I think it makes sense for the scouts to go about entering and tabulating the information.... not just being the hand-off person. but having some sort of review/approval process would alleviate a lot of concern (re $$$)

what a riot! I've seen the ones where a person gets totally inside but not this one. Looks fun to me. Nothing worse than a sprained ankle potential as far as I can tell yikes....act fast before they realize a scout can sprain an ankle while hiking! for that matter, generations of scouts got along just fine without cyber chip stem and probably a whole bunch of other miserable things I can't think of right now.... so what's the point? oh come on. It's a game! it's not ALL about skills and requirements. there is an element of fun that needs to be mixed in there someplace too. exactly! or zombie tag, and whatever that game the scouts were running around playing at the last camp was.... I can't remember

Interesting side track I think, but it does apply to uniforming, and how at least one troop encourages uniform wear.... my 2 cents re-cleaning a mess kit.... that's just correcting a mistake, or correcting something done wrong, or maybe practicing a skill to learn it push-ups and singing - maybe ok in my personal opinion depending on how and the situation... BUT clearly hazing in my book, even if done light heartedly Making them do a chore such as clean up after the meeting - smells like punishment to me, which is sneaking around close to hazing in my book. Not necessarily inappropriate in my personal opinion, but still hazing and therefore inappropriate in scouting... unless it was that scout's turn to do it anyway...

Krampus I'm hoping to quickly get to where you've described too. We already have the calendar going... unfortunately maintained more or less by an adult though. I honestly don't know if the scouts have a webmaster at all! Something I need to find out... but honestly I've got to say that the webmaster job to me seems like something the scribe should be doing. regardless, I'm hoping very soon to have all of this stuff online, so the scribe can see what needs to be done himself, without my telling him....and the PL can too for that matter.

Hey, thanks guys. I really appreciate the affirmation that I'm on the right track more or less. Stosh, i especially like some of your edits... really great points except that some of your suggested track presupposes that I'm working already with the scribe webmaster, etc... to pull together something to present to the PLC, SPL, SM, or whatever... In my thinking, there is a chain authority of sorts, of courtesy if for no other reason.... that I or any adult shouldn't initiate conversation or activity with a scout without at least a nod of approval from the SM.... Not that this is in any way how we are doing things, I still see no reason not to.... for example I should ask the SM if I can speak with the SPL.... or perhaps describe what i need from the SPL. The SM would then either a) approve my going around him, or b) relay the message The SPL would then relay the message to the appropriate folks.... the PLC, an individual PL, the scribe, etc... This line of thinking is based on my desire to not unintentionally derail something the SM may be doing, or that he's about to do... and so that there are no mixed messages that might mess up the SM's "program" (or the SPL's, etc...) But then after I get rolling with teh scribe, etc... I'm seeing it pretty much as you are outlining Stosh

Do you think that your treasurer is making any effort to change more to a model like I describe, or to change in some other direction?

yep, well the most recent is in my queue, probably this afternoon on my drive home.... What I really would love to do is go in and strongly suggest to all the troop adults that they NEED to listen to this guy, especially this series.... but I understand that that sort of "new-guy" approach just wouldn't work.

another thread, about adult interference, made me think of reviving this thread.... The handoff of the treasury stuff hasn't gone so smoothly, well really it's only slow....mostly because they're trying to close out all the stuff currently in the works for a smooth hand-off.... which honestly I think makes lots of sense and I'm thankful for it. Currently, my inside the head voice is screaming at the top off my lungs though, since the money thing is very adult driven and adult handled. I have already discussed with the CC and the committee that i plan on transitioning a lot of this stuff to the scouts.... they say that they agree and get it, but then again I'm not so sure. Anyway, I've stepped back so as not to meddle things up in the mean time BUT the handoff is coming soon I think, and honestly I'm a bit concerned about how I should best handle the switch. As I mentioned before we have troopwebhost, which has some seemingly great financial tools, but they historically have not had success in getting the troop as a whole to log in and work through it.... so it's currently not being used. My guess is that the parents wouldn't do it, but I'm wondering if we can get the parents to understand that it's up to their scouts to do it, maybe they'll be a little more inclined for it. Anyway I sure do wish I had an experienced treasurer to brainstorm with! Currently, our activity permission slips are collected and used sort of a log of who has paid for the upcoming campout, by notation in the margins (check number, pull form scout accounts, etc..) .... it's a very committee member to parent to committee member thing.... Anyway, i see the permission slip as a totally separate job function from treasurer, really more to the outdoor activities chair (if we had one), or maybe the secretary and these things probably should be handled between the scribe, the Patrol Leaders, and the Scout.... who would then approach their own individual parents to get the money, signatures, etc..., then it would climb back up to the scribe, who would work with the outdoor activities committee member for the permission slips ....and work with the treasurer (me) for the money. Here's my loose plan. Tell me your thoughts.... I'll start by running things more or less how they have been for a very short time, just to get myself more up to speed, give me time to get our accounts set up and running in troopwebhost, etc... and for the appearance that i gave it a shot the "old way" Then I figure that I'll approach the SM, and ask permission to talk with the SPL, and then perhaps the PLC basically explain that I have a problem because of parents doing too much and "confusing the issue" and ask (or suggest) that in an effort to move more to boy lead (which is something they all SAY that they want), I would like to rely on them basically, that I want to support the scouts taking their troop back from the adults That all forms and payments would come to me from the scribe, or at least from the scout, & not from their parents.... and that the scribe would be helping the scouts to remember what is needed. (if you owe money, owe a form, etc..) i.e Servant Leadership and that I will be willing to work with the scribe to keep the web info up to date regarding stuff received, and that the individual scout could then become more involved with their own destiny in indicating if they plan to attend, being able to look before a meeting to see if they need to bring something, owe money, etc... and to see if they want this, or if they have other ideas....

exactly what I'm internally screaming over, Sentinel947! These things just aren't going from or through the scouts! and I guess I'm looking at it similarly, not a hill to die on.... just yet anyway.... Sadly, I think a lot of folks feel this way, and so nobody 'dies' first to make the change.... and the scouts continue to 'suffer'

even that rings of hazing to me....

I was thinking more about this earlier this morning.... the chinese are buying up US industrial companies, and buying up US land here. But given their commy arrangement, when a chinese company buys us farmland, isn't that kinda like the chinese government buying deed/ownership of US soil? I'm no poly sci expert, but that just seems stupid that we allow this.... about the quality thing I personally feel is like almost anything.... there are junky products from china and there are quality products from china. for me, it's not so much about quality as it is about sovereignty and US self sufficiency... independance. Was it Thomas Jefferson, or maybe ben Franklin, that warned about losing independence when we loose manufacturing capability?....

Eagle 94, I didn't think anyone else from my troop was here... so your troop must be the clone of ours! We haven't had that exact exchange of events, but very well could have. Currently, my inside the head voice is screaming at the top off my lungs about our money handling, since the money thing is very adult driven and adult handled. Since I have been asked to take the treasurer job, I sure do wish I had an experienced treasurer to brainstorm with! anyway, I think I'll revive another thread about treasury stuff.... just wanted to chime in about the adult involvement thing

yes, I'm very aware and almost always will notice where things are made I'd love to follow the advice to just stop buying the foreign stuff.... especially from China and similar. Sadly, it's just not realistic more often than not. Some things sure, often I find that you can find little things, like wooden pencils in the school supply aisle, that are labeled USA alongside imports.... but with so many other things there just aren't many options readily available Tires come to mind. shoes and since I just ordered my replacement cell phone, that comes to mind too. The motorola currently in my pocket was at least 'assembled in the USA'. Sadly, that's not even available to my knowledge any longer since the chinese bought the company. I heard mention on the radio recently, about how much farm land the chinese are buying up here. Apparently it's huge. I find it very sad that our government allows so much land and industry to be bought by foreigners that aren't trying to immigrate here.

scout in our troop do a uniform inspection almost every troop meeting. I have no idea who or how the habit got started, but at some point the boys will all line up and some other boys will walk the line The thing I don't like is that they have some pushup requirement for those not deemed to be in full uniform. It just seems like hazing to me, even though it is done amongst plenty of giggles and silliness. My read is that the boys are doing it, but they all see it as a "joke". They are fairly good about uniforming, but the lean towards hazing bothers me. I'm biting my tongue trying not to rock the boat too much, as the "new guy"

for real? I was just looking at the flight plan paperwork a few months ago, trying to set up an aviation even for my 2nd year WEBELOS den. We ended up doing just an airport visit and tower tour, but only because I couldn't pull off the flights. I've been keeping my ears open for when my local airport pilot's association is putting on their next EAA Young Eagle flight program. Planning to offer it up to the scouts as an idea. As a pilot myself, I totally get it. Glad you were able to pull that together for your scouts @@Cambridgeskip!

I agree. I have been doing a whole lot of thinking on this topic on and off over the last year or so. It really does seem to me that strict interpretation and rigid implementation of this concept is just asking for trouble. On a whole, i think this is a major reason for troubles that we get from adult over-involvement. Take rank requirements as another example. All too often I'm seeing adults (committee as well as SM/ASM) hyperfocus on "requirements".... getting the boy through.... making that rank by such and such date....all the while taking the reigns and forgetting that this is the scouts' journey, not ours. That we need to just let the scouts "do what scouts do" as Clarke Green puts it. Just doing that stuff is fun, but doing the same thing as fulfillment of some requirement just simply isn't. Scouts should be learning and doing this stuff without even knowing that they are. Same for patrols and structure.

Thanks for the updates Eagle94 one observation...When these types of conversations come up, I've noticed that they usually move to the NSP concept, and how the BSA "fabricated" the idea and everything was ok with "mixed age" I'm thinking there are a couple things going on that have us tripping over semantics... In my view it shouldn't have anything to do with "New Scouts" or "Mixed" at all. Mixed age is not the goal I would seek, nor is the NSP as its commonly thought of. Instead the hybrid approach as old BP defined still seems very logical. Friends hanging with friends. Simple as that. Yeah sure its about learning to work with others and an older scout in the patrol can really be of a help to the newer scouts BUT remember, it's gotta be fun for them too. I don't agree that it's too far in the weeds. Clarke Green one talked about this game being Boy Lead, not Boy defined There's a certain guidance that the adults need to bring to the party. Sure the boys can and need to think on their own, but at this age they wouldn't possibly know it all (nor do adults, but that's another thread) my point is that guiding scouts through these times (or not guiding them) is something all scouters could improve with... and so for all scouters, but especially relatively new ones like me, these weeds are helpful. exactly! I have that same eyebrow raise when I hear "the scouts decided" If the only way they've ever seen it done is ___, then that's the first thing that'll come to their minds. At this age, this respect is starting to wane a bit, but when their dad is rambling on about something like this at home, they're certainly going to put value in that "direction" or "suggestion" from the person they probably respect the most.... even if it wasn't meant as direction/suggestion to them at all. I would love to encourage our troop to do this kind of thing. really at pretty much every campout, event, or meeting it might be good on many levels for the patrols to really be independant patrols.

Yeah, I'm on board with the idea of removing that area. If it's inappropriate for the scouting stage, then it needn't be here. I don't sort messages based on sub forums, so I really pay no attention to "where" it is. I look at new message since my last visit..... so to me, the where it is, is simply Scouter.com. I cringe at some of the posts here, realizing that our highly active numbers are low, and potential new members might be lurking and turned off by some of that stuff.

My take is that this whole thread so far is based on "not enough information." Personally I agree with Stosh that it's a valid answer, but perhaps incomplete. It might be cause for a re-direct with something like "Well, then what was it about this profession that you thought might be interesting?" or "why then did you try for the badge?" As I see it, It's a lead to a conversation OR a lead to amendment. We're just trying to get him to think, and to express the pros about what otherwise as a whole might be a con to him. If this were a written thing, that might be his 1st sentence. Now he has to justify it. So as I see it it's not a reject in itself. If that's what the scout thinks after all....that's his answer boiled down to the nut of it! So how then is that a WRONG answer?

yeah, so I'll re-ask the question... Eagle94, how did the toxic scouts feel about it all? I couldn't agree more with the others about the whole non-consensus thing and wanting to be with friends. I'm with stosh, I would have quit sooner if I was completely separated from all my best friends at that age. Now that i think about it, i would now at THIS age! This reminds me of my recent story about the patrol patch. The thing is, boys of a scout age may not fully get the whole thing about consensus. majority rules is easy to understand, how to go about coming around so that there's more of a consensus is much harder. Seems like something we could collectively try to encourage more... Eagle 94, I know that you probably wouldn't really know and its not like its something you could easily find out I suppose... so this is just "thinking out loud" stuff here... But I would find it very interesting to do a survey or study of sorts with your scouts something they could respond to in private away from other's ears....perhaps anonymous... to explore things like how many scouts are completely happy with the outcome? How many favorable pairing ended up happening....ie how many scouts are going to be hanging with his friends? all of them? some? only one of them? etc... how many new toxic pairings might result (& I don't mean the original ones that they clearly separated) how many scouts just aren't happy with the outcome, even if they'll live with it.... like maybe got in with one or two of his best friends but the rest boys that he's less agreeable with how many are on the verge of quitting over it .... stuff like that.

what ever happened to Beavah, anyway? I hated his writing style, but he had some good stuff to add from time to time....

yeah, I tried my best to steer clear of many of these home brewed "traditional" things when I was CM Not there's anything wrong with them necessarily..... (& its very hard to know sometimes what is real and what is urban legend) they make for a nice gesture when done in context sometimes.... as in a ceremony based on a themed meeting for example but it grates on me when it becomes "law". I especially disliked that Blue and Gold was synonymous with WEB2 Graduation Celebration while the true meaning and purpose was swept under the rug... and that the AOL is the "highest award in Cub Scouting" and something to not do immediate recognition for another Pet peeve of mine was the term "WEBELOS TWO".... it seems to imply a distinct difference in rank or program from "WEBELOS ONE". I prefer to think of it as the WEBELOS program.... (which happens to span more than a year).... so if in conversation one needs to clarify which group is meant, the term would be "First Year WEBELOS" or something similar

T2Eagle You're not exactly correct in that i want our CO to do something they don't want to do. Doesn't really matter to me, I'm just trying to help and will do it whichever way they want.... unless they want me to put my personal name on it. They are the ones that said the bank statements should be under their address..... makes perfect sense... keeps them in the loop, makes handling changes down the road easier, etc...I'm just extending the logic here.... it's owned by them they just don't seem to know it.... and that's the real issue as I see it. You're right.... decades of history with this, thousands of units and trailers under catholic charter.... so why do we have to retrain everyone in the parish office individually as things come up? and furthermore... why should we find ourselves in the mess now? Should have been squared away a long time ago in my thinking! Regardless...while 12 responses isn't exactly a great statistical representation, it does seem to be trending to most trailers registered at the CO's address... & I guess registered to either the CO or the unit itself (as in Troop xyz, care of the CO...)