blw2

well, I guess at that price point this one is out....

Ya see though, it's the "puttin" that I have a fundamental problem with. Your analogy falls apart way to quickly, in my thinking anyway.... You wouldn't put a full crew of greenhorns together on a working commercial boat (or anything else commercial for that matter) form a safety standpoint primarily, but also form a productivity/financial standpoint too.... We're not sending a patrol out into the ocean on their own for one thing.... and we aren't trying to maximize the profit for the other thing. Remember the whole basis for where this patrol idea came form (for Boy Scouting anyway)..... it was the group of friends that were playing together anyway..... they were not PUT together. it just aint so.... again, go back and read Baden Powell's stuff. When you get down to it, the GSUSA has it more natural.... in that each "troop" is a group of friends led by one of the moms typically. It's not a mix up of several different groups but not to get hung up on terminology..... their troop = our patrol this is where I almost start to agree.... it is the school thing that drives the group up by age.... but only to a degree of rigidity.... Tell me.... when was the last time you saw a 17 year old absolutely best friends, through everything, with a 10 year old? If we didn't have any other outside influences lets set an example of a small town out someplace, with no structure or outside influences the kids running around playing, learning, and exploring would naturally form up loosely into patrols and a troop you'd have the primary friend groups of a similar interest, and ability would more or less segregate by age.... such as a patrol then you'd have the other patrols.... some of which would be helpful to the less experienced ones in an ideal setting you'd have patrols of young girls doing stuff that interested them.... maybe playing my little point you'd have patrols of older girls doing their kinda stuff, and little boys doing stuff that wouldn't interest the older boys..... They'd get together to play games or do some things together, and they'd stay apart when they wanted to play more age appropriate stuff. Yep I can still see it....

Barry I interpret a tone that indicates you're frustrated. What can I do to help you? yeah, I'm not struggling with it at all, really. Not asking for help at all on it. Not looking for agreement I'm just throwing out my observations as food for thought for others.....hoping to help some boys out there to have a better and more full experience from scouting.....nothing more. ...and its not that "Mixed Age" patrols isn't in my heart..... I'm just fundamentally opposed to "FORCED age" patrols) I've given it a lot of thought ( a whole lot more than I should have probably) and it just stands up to the "smell test".... of what just makes good simple sense to my brain.... there are just simply many more negative question marks that come to my mind about forced aged patrols than there are about similar aged ones. boys are in this for fun boys want to hang with their friends boys don't want to be forced into doing stuff they do not want to do boys do not want to be forced into hanging with anyone in particular that they don't choose to - i.e. you can't pick their friends boys aren't even thinking in terms of "age", not directly anyway, so why do we need to label it? and it all just fits so nicely right in there with what BP wrote too..... And every time I hear or read about an example of failure (as to your point), I can't help but wonder..... .... could it be that it failed because of adult influence, even if it was sub conscientiously?.... &/or because of preconceived notions (youth or adult)?.... &/or because the scouts are just doing what they have seen modeled and aren't working "outside the box"?..... &/or because it was "Try", as opposed to "Do"?.....etc.... and every time I hear or read someone throw out the term "successful program", I can't help but wonder based on what or who's definition of successful? It's just such a subjective concept.... And furthermore, every argument I can recall that was pro-mixed or Forced age, center around problems that seem to have easy and often natural work around and alternatives that might just happen on their own anyway (such as not enough in-patrol experience or leadership) problems that are adult driven and defined (such as a need for advancement on a calendared schedule)

yeah, it's an interesting question to me, for sure..... as KDD mentioned, stagnant can mean stable. It might be a good thing..... and usually is.....but sometimes not so much just as flip flopping at short intervals is almost always a bad thing..... but maybe not.... I just find this an interesting philosophical question, nothing more..... not saying it's better one way or the next.... on one hand, you have adults that stick around mainly to be with their kids....when their kids age out or drop out, they move on then you have those of us that stick around after our kids are gone.... some for only a few more years or a short time other like these 20-30 year+ scoutmasters. and since there are so few key positions in a troop, a tremendous number of very good potential volunteers come and go through the parent ranks.... think of it over a 30 year period. It might be staggering, the number of really good SM's that never get to have a turn. And then I think.... well it's really for the boys so as long as that 30 year SM is doing a great job and the boys are getting their all form scouting , what's the harm?....right? and then I think, well nobody is perfect..... so are they really getting everything they can get form the program? .... and then there's a difference with different unit types too. Cub Packs for example.... I'd guess it far more common for folks to move on with their kids..... BUT there is also many more opportunities for key players in a pack too. and with troops, there are the examples as mentioned above with long tenured scouters.... but on average, I don't have a feel yet for what's the more normal tenure for these few key positions....

In another thread,I got to thinking about when or why someone would decide to start thinking about passing the reigns I asked @@Krampus How many years have you been at it? and why is it that you are planning your exit? Twelve years. I want to step down for a few reasons. First, in our unit we usually have a new SM every 4-5 years or so. That's pretty much a tradition where I live. It keeps units fresh and doesn't allow them to stagnate under one person. Second, I really want to focus on a high adventure program. We've got a very stable unit with a nice pipeline of incoming scouts. I want to focus on adult training and doing more for the older scouts. Mine is about to age out so the time is right to pass the baton. So it seems like this wants to be a new thread.... This is an area where I can totally see there is no ONE correct answer.... depends so much on local variables.... my thought ties into another conversation here, about how only the SM (or CM for a pack), the CC, or perhaps the COR are really the only folks that are really in a position to jump in a affect real and fast change in a unit. Being a committee member or even ASM doesn't really put you in a position to do big stuff, and we are really tasked with running the program as the SM/CM & the CC see it. and then when you have long time holders of these key jobs, many folks can come and go in the mean time.... so units really can stagnate, for better or worse. Thhis is just meant to be a what-if post How many years have you been at it? and why is it that you are planning your exit? How long is long enough or too long?

I can respect that idea, but I still keep coming back to the root of it really being ONE method, and so that one method sorta boils down to a 'one-size-fits-all' program in a way. It seems that time and time again, we see threads here about problems.... and it seems like in nearly every case it's because of drifting away from that "one method, one program". and then we circle back to the "mixed age thing". As I have read it, the root of it wasn't really set on "mixed" ages at all. It centers around a natural gang or group of friends. A small bunch of guys that have similar interests and abilities, similar life experiences, and that choose to hang out and do fun stuff together. It's really as simple as that, right? And so when you look at what BP observed, those groups are almost always roughly 6-8 kids, that happen to be roughly more or less a similar age. Matches what I have observed over my 50 years, in my groups of friends, and others too.... ....and by the way, how many players are on the field for most sports teams? (not the roster) I don't know,but it sure does seem like these games might have stemmed from the neighborhood gangs..... this gang playing that gang., with 6, 8, 10 people on a side..... As we get older, the age ranges of natural groups expand a bit, but on a percentage basis not by much..... as kids it's almost always the same grade, or perhaps ±1 grade or so......not so typical to vary more than that. As an adult, our groups tend to be not all that much different..... you don't see many 22 year olds as best buds with a 56 year old.... as an example. Again, as I read it THIS natural gang idea was the concept of the 'Patrol' as forming a basis of the Patrol Method of scouting. I personally feel like it would be better for us to stop using these terms of age (same age, mixed age, NSP, etc...) but instead start thinking of the groups more in terms like this the patrol (that happens to be made of mostly newer scouts (or roughly 5th/6th Graders if you like)) or.... the patrol (that happens to be made up mostly of older scouts) etc.... with nothing saying that the patrol, that happens to be mostly older scouts, can't have a younger member or two, or visa versa..... but only dependant on who their buds are..... who they want to hang with, similar interests and abilities, and so on....

and a key point is that you are "encouraging"... i think that is great! Hopefully you'll find that #2 soon, so you'll have lots of time to mentor before you've had enough I'm only just curious How many years have you been at it? and why is it that you are planning your exit?

It was suggested to me, when I was faced with not being needed at the troop, that I should consider continuing to give to scouting and help the troop.... by sticking with the pack. I was even asked to stay on as CC.... they needed one and I did consider it strongly. I figured it would be a whole lot easier thing to do now that the last of the old guard would be moving on..... by that I mean the old leaders that were still around although burned out from their time serving with their older sons.... It was just hard working with them I found, since they wanted to give up control but at the same time were set in their ways and very hard to work with. In the end, I came around to the same thinking as Krampus.....As I wrote earlier, I think there is a place for an experienced non-parent leader or two in my thinking that tiger position might be a key one... and I just do not have the interest or energy at this stage of life to take that on! Perhaps if I were an empty nester and retired.... but not now. But I personally think you need parents with "skin in the game" in the key positions CM, CC, most DL's since they have more motivation and interest in being at every event. The other less influential position where I can imagine a non-parent I think would be general committee member....in an advisory role, and to jump in hands on from time to time when they can....

it looks like there was similar story back in may 2015.... 1 year ago ??? http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27165-booted-out-of-scouting-for-speaking-up/?do=findComment&comment=416157 Maybe an anniversary post, perhaps?

yeah, sounds like a bum deal for sure.... a real kick in the gut. But there is bound to be a story here. Usually thing like this would build up.... even just a bit and you would at least sorta know in your gut who or what.... I just hope you can find to put it to rest peacefully, one way or another...

finally remembered to pack your earplugs, did ya?

Sure we have impact and can even do a tremendous good. but what I am getting at is the major change.... I as a "new guy" and just a committee member, cannot come in and start telling the SM to stop talking, for example..... when it's clear that he should go over there, grab a cup of coffee, and let the scouts do their thing.... There is little if anything I can do directly to affect significant change in the unit's program. It's really only the folks in the roles of SM, CC, or perhaps COR that really have the authority of position to do that sort of thing. I can look for opportunities to respectfully hint and suggest every now and then, but it would never fly for someone like me to just hit the ground running to FIX the program.

Stosh Mine is a very micro-level experience.... but i'd guess that the vast majority of units could only really answer this question with an N/A.... becasue of at least some adult driven influence or direction Our troop is very Troop centered although some lip service is given to patrols, it's really more of a sub-group breakout so the down-vote as you referred to it comes first form the adult.....t hen the SPL is kinda like.... "ahhh, ok..." Like a lot of units I suspect...

yeah, if you're like me you're finding being on the committee frustrating... at times. We aren't in one of the key 3 positions that can really directly affect change..... and honestly need to be respectful of out boundries. I just keep reminding myself in these situations that the scouts (and my son) are at least getting something out of the program, as long as those key folks aren't doing direct harm..... not always, but there are times like this.....

yeah, seems to me to be much the same train wreck of an idea as minimum wage.... I figure it boils down to an increase in dues/costs AND/OR a reduction in services. a loose/loose form my perspective.... On the other hand, I have long been troubled with the question.... so just where did this magic "40" hour work week number come from anyway? ditto the "5" day work week? These numbers seem rather arbitrary, and in my thinking I'd much rather work a little less to have a little bit more time for what really matters in life.... So this new thing anyway just seems to be throwing in more seemingly arbitrary numbers into the mix....

Hi Papyaman1000 Welcome! First of all.... you are not "just" as scout. You ARE a SCOUT! YOU are what this is all about, and are the playing the MOST IMPORTANT role! yeah, i was just posting the question yesterday, wondering if SCOUTS had a place or resource where scouting topics might get batted around..... I have been participating on discussion forums for several years now... Started out in other interest areas, and then when i got into working with Scouts, I searched and found this one. I find it a great resource. I imagine its the same in most units, from a scout perspective, as well as an adult one..... The folks in the unit really only know what they do, or what has been done..... they might occasionally pick-up a tidbit here and there at round tables, camporees, and so on..... but only so much and on top of that I find that other adult scouters in my unit have various interest levels... Some give scouting a lot of thought, and others not so much. Mostly they just troll along through it doing what they do and not really trying to think outside the box all that much (it's just natural, I don't mean that as a dig...) This came to mind, starting with a thought I had that I would like to plant a seed in the minds of the SPL and other scouts.... that it might be ok to politely and respectfully tell a SM or other adult.... when they might be butting into something you are doing, or otherwise talking & rambling on about something that a scout should be doing or wants to be doing for themselves.... or really doesn't even care about at all.... that it might be ok for them to say something like "it's ok Mr. X, I've got this. I think Mr. Y might need help with his cup of coffee over THERE..." But really, that message would be oh so much more meaningful, perhaps, if it were planted in the heads of scouts by other scouts.... in your words.... not in adult "language" Of course politely, respectfully, and not blowing off something that an adult wants or needs..... but just letting the adult know that you CAN do it, and that you WANT to do it, BUT that you would LIKE to do it in your own way if that is ok.... because really I think that is how a scout is going to best use the patrol method to learn, but more importantly have FUN SO, is there a place where I might let my scout son and other scouts know about, where they might go to discuss or learn about the fun side of scouting, get ideas of better ways of doing things, other things to do, and so on? maybe youtube or some blog or forum?

agreed, I would also welcome more perspective here from Scouts... and I have noticed the ood post form time to time, as well as wondered about lurking.... But in those rare occasions, it seems like sometimes WE forget that in our discussions..... Regardless, I agree and would welcome that but my question wasn't about "making" that happen here it is more about have any of you heard any of your scouts talking about, or have you seen them go to or reference anything like it. Where DO they go? I'm thinking youtube might be a more likely format.....

I should have have clarified I'm hoping for youth run written or led by a "youth" scout etc.... not just directed at them. maybe a podcast or a youtube channel perhaps? where do the 'energetic' scouts go?

Does any of our wisened participants here know of any blog, discussion forum, or any other resource or place that a scout could go to have a similar experience that we have here? I understand that youth members could easily participate here, but I sense that they rarely if ever do, and the discussions are mostly adult focused..... I got to thinking that it would be wonderful if anyone knew of something that energetic scouts could be pointed too as an option.... I get the feeling that it really is mostly "the blind - leading the blind- following the adult" at the unit level. They know no different and so they just plug along making the most out of what they are dealt. This came to mind, starting with a thought I had that I would like to plant a seed in the minds of the SPL and other scouts.... that it might be ok to politely and respectfully tell a SM or other offending adult.... when they might be butting in or otherwise rambling on about something.... "it's ok Mr. X, I've got this. I think Mr. Y might need help with his cup of coffee over there..." But really, that message wold be oh so much more meaningful, perhaps, if it were planted in the heads of scouts by other scouts....

may have been mentioned before, apologies if so.... over at scoutmastercg.com a while back, Clarke had what he called something like "5 minute PL traiing" (or was is 15 minute?....) I don't know the point was it was short it was a nice outline basically, of a conversational approach to getting the boys thinking. I thought it a perfect replacement to the ppt training ILST might be worth a search if you haven't seen it

Well, I spent a lot of time and effort looking into various options and really trying different ways of chasing this cat .... but this was a couple years back now, and on the old program... Regardless, I don't think the new program or the time really changes things with regards to my thoughts anyway. I came to the conclusion that ALL of these tracking things are basically work-makers for anyone at the Cub level. Probably a bit more useful at the troop level in some cases, but at the cub level I just don't think it matters. Let the scouts and parents let the appropriate person know when an award is achieved so that it can e purchased. It's as easy as that. A den leader will have a feel for what needs to be done in meetings as a general rule for their planning but if a scout misses or falls behind that scout and his parent can do the catching up. Furthermore, in my pack i found that the scouts didn't really care all that much about all that stuff anyway. Getting rank, wanting bling that another boy had, wearing it the uniform.... ever really saw all that much desire or excitement for it. .... and I worked hard for a couple years to encourage it, track it, make sure we practiced instant recognition....etc... The only exception I can think of, and this is a big maybe, and only for huge mega-packs.... is perhaps some sort of online shareable shopping list for the person buying awards... and making it known that on say Xday before each pack meeting is shopping day, if its not n the list by then it won't make it till next month.... I'm thinking like Google "Keep" perhaps, or one of those sign-up services....

yeah, seems like a good idea.... but then again if you boil down the whole program and all the books, isn't that what it already is? I mean the whole thing really is about one program, using the patrol method. But then throwing in "best" opens things up to opinion. I go back to something I was thinking a while ago, that EVERYTHING could really be so much more simple that it is. There really is just but one program, and there really is just ONE best way of doing it (at the core of it anyway) ahh, a cover.... that would actually park itself up on a shelf nicely. WOW, what a concept! I love it! I really do dislike the 3-ring binder concept. I'm a hard backed book person myself, for things that I want to hold onto as a reference. But I have heard the argument for digital versions, and in the case of this sort of stuff I could buy into that idea too. Much more portable and searchable too.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Sending my warm thoughts and prayers to all the families in your troop! Krampus Just two days ago, i listened to this podcast http://scoutmastercg.com/scoutmaster-podcast-314-scouting-email-questions/ one of the questions was regarding a death of a troop parent, and how Clarke was out of his element. I hope you have someone you can talk with and get support from like he did. Perhaps a counselor to come to your next troop meeting as in Clarke's story.

a chapter on the business end of committee stuff. clarifying the situations without the vague dancing around.... and "it depends".....because it really doesn't "just depend", as is so often stated. It IS either A, B, or C....etc.... .... clarifying things like the charter org relationship, taxes, banking, etc.... which I'm finding have changed recently and you could probably mix in the same chapter something about how the various committee responsibilities stand and mix, in relationship to scouts, parents, etc....

applogies if there is some bad typing here.... just had lasik eye surgery done today, and computimng with sunglasses on .....wow, lots of great help here. Thanks to everyone! guess I probably need to consult a tax lawayer... ugh, just seems like this is an area that the local BSA council should be able to help with though, instead of my reinvining teh wheel... Seldon, seem like your situation has been different. Are you also a catholic ahrter? What stage of this game are you at? od you have an account yet?