blw2

I get the point and my personal read is that this might follow the letter of intent (not) written but this sort of extrapolation bugs me Scout patrols, in theory, can get together and do anything they want, right.... For example the guys might all want to get together to do some completely non-scouting activity once in awhile, just for fun.... athletes might shoot some hoops any scouts might go see a movie The older scouts might go rome the mall to view the local flora and fauna techie scouts might want to play a little x-box scouts might want to get together for a little mountain biking or scouts from the country might all own ATV's and want to get together for a ride all of these are more or less non-scout sanctioned activities, right? and besides it seems to me that with a bunch of level headed adults running the thing, what the OP is proposing seems almost infinitely safer than say a bike ride assuming it's just tame jeep trails, speed is kept in a safe range, seat belts are worn, etc... if it were me, I'd go with the non-scouting angle... just a bunch of friends. But I'd still keep some extra level of safety in mind, just as I would YPT guidelines on such an event....

I'll add an angle to consider With property being owned by the CO, I would think then that it is theirs to do with what they want (The Knights in your case) So If you have property..... such as a pack trailer a derby race track flags any unit camping equipment money in the bank etc... Then you would be forfeiting that stuff if you move to a charter Org that's not where the Knights want to give it.... in my thinking anyway. Which, depending on circumstances it might be just as well to walk away from the stuff and start fresh. Hard to swallow, but maybe best....

apologies if this was previously mentioned.... At what frequency is ILST intended to be repeated? Our troop requires it after every election for every scout holding a position. (our elections are on a 6 month cycle) No matter if they've taken the course at many previous offerings Just seems a little silly to me. I got to thinking about that 15 minute training I linked to in my previous post, I could see requiring ILST annually perhaps since kids at the scout age might not remember past last month.... or maybe every 2-3 years especially if this little 15 minute training conversation was used as a refresh

listening to the most recent podcast over at scoutmastercg.com and Clarke referred to an article he wrote some time ago. I like the short and direct approach. Cuts to the chase beautifully I think http://scoutmastercg.com/fifteen-minute-patrol-leader-training/ In thinking about our ILST course I "audited" recently... I can't think of anything that was covered in it that would be missed, if you just followed this little 15 minute idea. The rest of it..... subtle techniques and such could and maybe should be handled on the fly, case by case. They would mean more to the scouts that way.

The only thing I can think to add is to ask Do you even have a functioning committee? Could it be that your CM is not getting the support that should be given to the pack, and so it's left to him to do everything? I never let things get quite as bad as you're describing... but I have a twinge of sympathy in my gut for this CM (potentially) When i was CM we had a CC but he was honesty not very engaged and I ended up wearing many of his hats I did not have an ASM to lean on We had a couple folks on committee but they were almost completely disengaged. We had a good core of den leaders, but they only did so much.... and honestly , I did my best to shield them from the extra work of committee stuff as much as I could, because I figured they had full plates with regular meetings (although some weren't as regular as I would have liked) And the few times we tried to call parent meetings after things got bad, nobody showed up. My point in all of this is taht sometimes you have to let things slide. A cubmaster can only wear so many hats, and if others aren't picking up their jobs or aren't even willing to take the jobs that are not being done, then some things just have to slip.

kinda sounds like they already did the sit-down and talk.... yeah, probably wouldn't hurt to try again. Maybe try to stress that the pack is a valuable ministry arm of the church, look for ways to make it even more so.... like that. Seems to me they are looking at it like they are doing YOU &/or The PACK the favor..... maybe try to turn that around, or at least balance the scale.... Short of that, I would think the next step might be to survey the pack to see how many families would jump ship with you if you were to approach another CO nearby to move to, or to form a NEW pack under... then go from there.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was odd. The speech part just felt awkward to me.... & I'm not the one having to stand up there and do it! No, what i was meaning to do was build on Stosh's comment about selecting, not electing so, if I'm understanding it correctly, the patrol with everyone in attendance is tasked to select the next PL. So, they can of course vote if the want.... or sit around a table and have a discussion.... sort of like a nomination/debate/election at a round table..... basically they would spitball their merits, their needs, pros/cons, who needs the POR, etc... in an open discussion.

I was gonna say I'll bet the martian has some bad language. I haven't seen it YET, but I just finished the book. Lots of F bombs in there. Other than that i really enjoyed it. having just joined, my oldest is on the low end of the age scale so i don't have history of what a modern Scout aged boy would like. I wonder if an oldie like Bridge over the River Kwai might be well received. Regardless, this is really a question for the SPL, IMHO. Just set some very clear rules about ratings/language. No doubt a good SPL can be responsible enough to do that, and he's in touch enough with the scouts to know what they might like. Might even discuss it with them (or the PLC?). Might be an idea to ask him to submit choice or choices to SM for previewing

I like that twist calling it selection, rather than an election, @@Stosh! I'm still so new with the troop I'm not suggesting much to the SM/ASMs yet, or SPL/PLs for that matter (I know most of these folks from Pack,and some form outside of scouting, but I haven't developed that trust at the troop level yet) but this one I might try to fit it into a casual conversation one of these days soon! Having come in with our 2nd meeting the election night, I saw how they do it.... and I got to say it felt awkward to me. So the boys had submitted previously a signed thing telling the SM (or committee?) that they wanted to run for X position. This paper outlines the prerequisites if any, duties, expected attendance, etc... and the parent signs it signifying that they understand and promise to support the scout getting him to meetings and letting him attend events. This part seems ok to me, although smells very adult.... but I like the all around understanding it brings to the party Now the awkward part The candidates each stood in front of the troop and gave their speech/ made their case (why, what, etc.) Then the anonymous little slips of paper game... Then much tallying by the SPL and SM helping.... I think modeling your selection process as something for the scouts to consider makes a lot of sense.

HA.... well now I've got to admit, there's one other but I can't for the life of me come up with the name of it. i could look it up, but where's the fun in that?!? as I'm thinking about it now, this approach (having standard standing names... not the assigning thing) makes some sense because it kinda takes the emphasis off.... an "is what it is" kinda thing... BUT it would likely only work well with more standard names like we had in the old days like basic animals, and none of this eclectic stuff they come up with

yeah, it seems like there's a lot of atomic this, ninja that atomic taco ninja bacon cyber duck are the active patrols in our troop

which is an interesting comment, when I look at it from the perspective of when scouts are voting, and what for. Voting for PL or other POR's... yep, MIGHT not result in everyone getting taken care of.... but what else is one to do? You'll rarely get a consensus with something like that Voting for menu items.... yep, an example where consensus would be much better in preventing say PB&J sandwiches for lunch when a scout has a peanut allergy (yeah, I know it's an extreme and maybe exaggerated, but it illustrates) yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes might be caught helicoptering a bit.....but never as bad as some parents I've seen. Still, I think you're missing a little context with that statement Stosh.... I would accept that I would be helicoptering like mad if I made the shopping list for him and took him shopping to "show" him how to select the best kind of mac and cheese for example.... BUT considering that he has NEVER been introduced to what a grubmaster needs to do isn't what I would call an accomplished chef and considering that he will not be in a position to ever meet with a SM, ASM, TG, SPL, or an experienced GM before this campout, in order to get any coaching, direction, or have an opportunity to discuss a few leading questions to prime him along, to increase his odds of success just a bit, isn't much harm I'd think. Like throwing out a pillow to land on as I see a faceplant about to happen Letting him fall flat on his face at this stage of the game would not serve anyone in a positive way at this point. (new patrol, most scouts have been with the troop about a week, lack of patrol spirit in son because of having his opinion poo pooed, a new PL who's in no position to support the patrol, is even less experienced than son is & who is everything except a good "leader", and that PL being the poo pooer that caused the reduced patrol spirit in the first place) If other things were more solid... sure, I'm all for the pure life lesson. but he's in a position where he needs to have at least a fighting chance to support his patrol as the APL and GM, and not have a gross failure... unless of course he just doesn't even try.

so there's some weird ones out there, but nothing I would say too off the wall so far.... my story continues.... well, he got his patrol patch at the last meeting. he still hates it. I mean really hates it. I'm not saying anything to him about it.... staying out of it for his sake..... but he brings it up to me after the meeting, and is asking questions. He hates it so much so he was asking me was changing it allowed. (to most of his questions, I say I don't know you'll need to ask maybe your SPL or SM.... but added I suppose my GUESS is maybe, if you get all the others to agree and you'd prob have to pay for the new patches (and went on to talk something about sticking with it, giving it a chance, not flip-flopping names frequently.... or some such thing, I can't remember specifically....) and then he asked.... can he change patrols That last one is the one that concerns me the most. If he has little to no patrol spirit, feels that he was verbally bullied with the "shut up, too late, majority rules"...that he got from his friend.... then he might not really feel part of the patrol, and might loose his energy for scouts. i get the feeling that he'll get a negative feeling everytime he sees or puts on his shirt with that patch on it now. I can sympathize with that....Not a good way to start with the troop. So while resqman and others are correct... it's just playground bickering sillyness, things like this ARE a big deal for a young scout just starting with the troop full of energy and excitement. They want to be part of something they can be proud of, not something they dislike. I think really illustrates that things like this really need to be based on consensus. Everything can't be of course, but some things certainly can. BUT, I wonder how it is with a new scout joining a troop as a single, who gets placed in way way or another in some patrol where he had no involvement in picking the name and patch. Kinda different but kinda the same too... or the troops where patrol members are "assigned"... Taking it to an extreme, how would any of you like being assigned to a patrol named... oh I don't know, something like the "daisy patrol" maybe, or the "pink pansy patrol" (or anything in strong opposition to something you like)?

This thread is right on-topic in my house now. Just last night, was talking to my now APL son about his ILST class a few weeks ago. His take.... it didn't really teach anything.... nothing useful. and by the way, I have to admit, when I think back to what they did... I honestly cannot tell you anything they were lectured to about. Not one topic. I remember that the various instructors presented their sections well, and cover good theoretical stuff.... but really, the ONLY thing I can remember were two of the games. OK, now that I think about those two games, I come back around to one section about communication and controlling the room/keeping distractions out.... the other game I remember, it illustrated working together, but I don't know what the topic was. & i think Barry is spot on in a way too, about the learning by example thing... and is an inherent weakness in our troop's fixed 6 month election cycle..... everybody is always in a state of settling into a new job. and re. the grubmaster example... my son was selected as grubmaster for the upcoming camp. So, after the meeting I was priming him with questions.... Did you come up with a menu? ...so how was the menu decided? ....Do you know what you need to buy? ..... and it turns out that it was a team discussion with folks throwing out ideas and everyone settling on something they like - good so far the newly elected PL took notes, not a complete shopping list but just the menu from the sounds of it... with some shopping list demands coming from the PL, such as "buy 2 gallons of milk" then the grubmaster (son) did not come home with a copy of those notes, saying that it wouldn't matter anyway because the PL's handwriting is unreadable. He said "I guess I'll just have to go by memory" Hilarious..... I guess I'll lead him along a little tonight by asking a few more questions.... try to get him to think about writing a detailed shopping list. try to get him to think about what hedgehog suggests .... what are the specific tasks you'll need to do to make X? Who can help with that? what tools/dishes do you need? how do you know you have them available? etc...

honestly, no I don't think most care about that arrow/plaque/display Our pack has a tradition of giving each AOL award recipient the plaque with arrow.... one of the commercially available ones. Sure the boys like the arrow and even want it My son's has been on the shelf in the living room for 2 months or so now without any more mention of it. At one point I thought it would be cool to do those custom color thread wraps, with each wrap indicating a rank or award through their cub years... BUT honestly these boys want to shoot stuff or race or compete Do a little work on pioneering knots Get a nice big stack of bamboo poles... like broom handle size maybe, or a bit smaller They could make a doozy of a catapult or maybe a bridge that will support a boy above a pit of "acid" (with some limit on height) Another fun but easier thing is a bridge of toothpicks and mini marshmallows.... turn it into a competition

Sorry I don't know the requirements in this new program well But a table and bird boxes and display boards sound a bit boring in the eyes of this 49 year old boy Open it up to the boys, they'll think of something fun.... but as food for thought... think boy FUN!!! maybe a catapult a ping pong ball crossbow a stomp rocket launcher

They do! well don't know about without connections, but likely. I took our 2nd year WEBELOS to a local tower. I'm a pilot but haven't flown in years and no longer have contacts, but I contacted the EAA young eagles person who is active in the local airport pilot's club and they helped me make it happen. http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-education-and-resources/eaa-youth-education/eaa-young-eagles-program

Naw... he only remembers them because you probably tell the same stories about them at every family holiday/get together sorry, couldn't resist. But seriously, I sometimes think that is how I remember most of my childhood.... hearing the old farts tell the stories over and over.... looking at old family movies and picture albums.... I wonder how much is actual true from my eyes memory.... about Cubs. I'm almost 50 years old. I have only vague recollections of watching dad build the derby cars, and one of the races at a car dealership where they had free all you could eat till you throw-up hotdogs (and I verified it). My mom was Den Leader or Den Mom... & I vaguely remember some arts and crafts bored to tears moments... touring a hospital, but pretty much my only memory of that was the gynormous laundry machines. That's a bout it. Only fleeting moments at best.

our pack had that as a long standing practice adults didn't pay dues, and were eligible to reimbursements for any and all expenses (except maybe uniforms).... although most folks didn't bother.... with stuff like the CO's required background check, books, and all sorts of little things out of their own pockets.

our troop runs ILST apparently we do elections on a 6 month cycle, with ILST planned soon after for the newly elected leaders.... even if they have taken it before. I sat in the back of the room, since my son wanted to take it and so I was going to drive him anyways (he hadn't been elected, but saw it as a good stepping stone to a por) Overall, I'm guessing it followed the BSA syllabus fairly closely. We have a Committee member that is very energetic, and did a lot of work pulling together a class. Teaching is split up by several folks (SM, ASM's, Committee Members) and this breaks it up.... and the exercises/games rotate so that if somebody took it before they are likely playing different games. Generally, ... probably with a lot of help from the organizer/trainer... that it's a decent little class to cover leadership concepts EXCEPT too much classroom setting and adults doing the talking instead of the scouts.

great point Barry. That is one question that I DID ask him It was a very short and simple answer...."the scouts running the meetings". But I wouldn't really expect much more than that from a 11-12 year old that really hasn't ever experienced or even seen a great boy lead program.

I saw a really good documentary a while back on USAF Pararescue, in Afghanistan i believe it was. All I can say is thank you for your service and give you a salute! I'll bet you're more than prepared to put on a really great high adventure program. I wish I could be a part of it.

ahhh..... that makes more sense!

We use them, as far as I know for everything except troop meetings, and probably getting together for a service project at our CO... something like that. Personally, I think it makes sense any time a troop adult is going to be driving scouts, such as going to a campout... even if it's your own son but then just for consistancy. They shouldn't be necessary I think when it's a local / parent drop-off thing like bowling, unless it's something inherently dangerous I'm curious about how you use "secure Google Drive".... as in is it something other than a standard google drive account? Something I'd like to do is to get it digitally, so that anyone that might need them has access. For example...It would be a bummer if the one person that has the paper copies suddenly can't make the campout ditto medical forms and such.... But there is some resistance to putting personal info online

I've Only done the one BOR, and the only actionable item that came up was something that is already known, and they are trying to address. The boys want more boy lead. I wish I would have asked this, but it didn't come to mind till after.... When he said the troop needs more boy lead, I should have asked How would you make that happen?.... and/or.....How can I/we help to make that happen? Really, I think I know a solution already... not his answer, but what needs to be done.... but still, I should have asked him.