blw2

well I'm certainly no lawyer, CPA, or financial guru I'm an engineer, so only looking at what makes sense logically, and trying to wade through this.... Even though it's all non-official internet advice, i really appreciate the help in thinking it all through! this is what I was thinking it was..... that I would only only be getting a number, and EIN.....not getting a non-profit status or a corporation of any kind. That's teh way it seems to read. Am I wrong? It seems a relatively easy process to change the address or administrator's name on this EIN down the road once I move along.... right?

yeah, #1 wasn't really an offer. It was the initial knee-jerk reaction form the secretary. When it boils down, they really don't want. #2 is exactly why we thought this approach was the most logical. It does look like the parish has its own EIN which is different from the diocese... It would have been ideal, as you say, but sadly it isn't proving workable. With new banking rules, appearently they need to put the pastor and other priest on teh account as signers, so their personal info is needed. A wall I'm up against. I talked with the bank folks a bit more yesterday PM. It seems that 3 is about the only option at this point..... except I'm figuring that I'll have to list a troop committee member as administrator, prob me as treasurer, but I will plan on listing the parish address. I think your point #4 and the issue of NOT incorporating might be the sticking point. According to the bank, it would be a "commercial account" = not personal.... but coming up with a registered name with incorporating is what I still need to determine how to do. I asked the folks at the bank, how other troops are set up. They speculate that it's mostly an issue becasue of recent bankjing rules changes and that most of the existing troop accounts came before this stuff.... I asked if they have accounts for any of the other troops/clubs that fall under teh catholic church.... probably hundreds or thousands in this diocese alone! They speculated that its a grandfathered-in thing... It seems like I've uncovered a relatively new but major issue that the BSA charter structure will face with new units.

yes, same here. I think. It does seem like the state "name" thing might be the sticky wicket. It seems the IRS SS-4 form isn't going to be a big deal. The thing I have yet to determine is establishing the name of the organization. According to what I'm being told by the bank, the name of teh organization as listed on the EIN has to match the state business database, sunbiz, which seems to be where corporate names are listed/registered. and I'm not sure about this yet either. It really boils down to this for us too. The church is ok with our using tehir number, but the diocese is not, and nobody wants anything more to do with it.

ha, I missed this post before yes, you're correct Some areas of the south are very sparsely populated. Not hear in Florida though! That the thing that's even more mind boggling to me.... it seems like this wouldn't be such a new concept. I'm now fully understanding why the previous folks (troop and before in the pack too) seemed to like to skirt the system so much.

As I look at the SS-4 form (as suggested in the BSA's fiscal policy document) to get our own EIN as a troop it really looks like this might be the way to go..... (based only on what looks logical) listing the parish as the responsible party, with their EIN. I'm not sure who the executor would be though.... maybe me as treasurer would be most logical? but based on recent experiences, I'll bet the bank would look back to the responsible party for the executor, so then they would want to list the pastor..... which loops us right back around to where we are now. man, we're not trying to cut a profit.....all we want to do is take some scouts camping!!!

ohhhh... that's a whole other can-o-worms! Yeah, when i first made contact with the parish office for some initial information, they (the secretary and others) really pushed hard out of the gate that their bookkeepers should be doing all of this.... almost as if we shouldn't even have a treasurer, but instead should be operating like the youth group and other ministries. So she steered me to contact the person in charge of that Catholic Committee. She was thinking they would straighten me out..... but I thought, "hey great idea! I know them a bit having worked with them on religious medals, so they will certainly understand the whole thing and help me get the parish office straight." Oh, couldn't have been more wrong. They set in motion this whole thing about the troop not falling under the parish at all. that we are owned by the BSA, etc.... They were every bit or more clueless.

i have written here before I think the single most valuable position could be having a perpetual tiger leader. A non parent that knows the drill and isn't trying to figure things out on the fly they could really set off each new den level on the right path, help select and groom one of the parents in that den to take DL the following year, to help groom all of the parents for other helping roles, help everyone - parents and scouts- to better understand the program

i thought of setting up a donation closet several times while I was CM. Even had a few off things handed to me by parents over the years for that purpose.... old neckers, hats, etc... The problem is that in any donation or swip/swap arrangement... you need someone to sort of deal with it... and when you can't find people willing to sign up to bring snacks to the pack meeting, you're certainly not going to find someone to manage such a thing as this. so the stuff goes into a box, and into the storage closet or shelf.... to get either buried or remembered the next time there is some random need.

That is exactly what I have been doing all these months.... letting the existing CC sort it out. It's what they wanted to do & I think it's the logical approach.... except that I do think the right thing to do is help.... that what we all are trying to do with the game of being scouters after all, right....help. I'm certainly not planning on making any unilateral decisions for the troop. yeah, that too is exactly what we have been doing.... or trying to do.... in an effort to not making an already too long first post even longer, I skipped over some of the saga The CC initially opened a bank account at another bank, with several of us set up as signers, made an initial deposit (by check from the old account)...then a short time later the bank came back wanting more info from the parish and diocese..... which was proving difficult and even silly So on the advice of a parish bookeeper familiar with the troop, we closed that account and opened one at the same bank the diocese uses.... thinking things would be streamlined since they know how the parish works, have a relationship, etc.... well, similar things are happening. The problems are mostly it seems because the ownership of tax id is complicated. The parish padre's are "in charge" of the parish, but the parish bank accounts were established prior to them being there. The EIN's are tied to the diocese.....which ties to the bishop.... and the bishop that was tied to that number is long since retired.... just one big mess from my perspective.... And to your point Krampus, we have a letter form the parish giving permission to use the EIN to open the account you describe.... no problem there. It's just when teh bank starts processing papers on the back end, verifying ownership of teh EIN's etc.... that things get muddy. So, I'm left thinking our best direction would be to just forget about the non-profit status and using the church's number all together. I just can't believe that with the probably thousands of BSA units chartered by catholic parish's and schools, that this is even a blip or a question mark. Should just be done and done. Really unbelievable.

as anew convert to the lighter weight backpacking idea I couldn't agree more. My pack I bought several years ago, mainly because it seemed big enough an it was relatively cheap. A teton sports pack.... comes in at 5# My thinking, I'm not planning to do a lot of backpacking, or great distances.... and more than likely any that I do will have an elevation change of less than 20ft or so.... But in hind site I'm not happy. It's too heavy and really isn't all that practical for me. Honestly for my use, I'd trade off on the weight a bit, to get a back opening pack.. but that's just a personal preference thing. I still agree that weight is a consideration to prioritize

Ok Some of you may recall That I have been asked to be the troop's treasurer. more or less 5 months in and I am still not up an running as treasurer...ugh. It just shouldn't be this hard. So first the back story We're chartered by a catholic parish the current bank account is at a local community bank that has proven to be difficult to work with. Errors, lack of good online banking, only the one branch, etc... The account was established by the now deceased SM. We suspect that he set it up perhaps under his own ssn. It doesn't seem to be directly tied in any way to the CO. The CC wanted to transfer to a fresh and new bank account at a differnet bank, set up properly, prior to my taking over. So, we have been trying The bank sets up the account, but later determines taht more paperwork is needed. Currently, they are after personal information for the parish pastors. Just doesn't seem right to me, but regardless, we asked but are getting resistance form the parish office. Frankly, they don't understand any of it, originally thinking that they were not in any way tied to the troop. Regardless, it just seems like one hoop after another, and it's so much more deeply convoluted since the parish falls under the diocese which falls under the ecclesiastic congress... So to my question: The BSA Fiscal guidelines point to a unit having its own EIN, filling out an SS-4 form the specific verbiage for your reference: Does a unit need its own tax identification number? If so, where do we get it? The answer depends on the chartered organization. Most units obtain their own tax ID number by completing IRS Form SS-4. The current form and instructions are available on the IRS website (www.irs.gov). The chartered organization should be the “responsible party.†Contact your chartered organization for written permission. Contact your local council for more information. So, i'm feeling like this is a combo problem...the parish making things more difficult than it needs to be, and the banks not really knowing how to deal with it either. So, if I were to fill out this SS-4, and establish some sort of non-interest generic club-type account not tied directly to the parish or to their EIN, would I then have to file a tax return every year for the troop? and do profits from fundraising campaigns complicate this even more? ​I just want to be done with this madness and move forward!

yeah it does sound way outa hand. Maybe too late to even get into this, but the SM reports to you as the CC. Sounds like that small tidbit has been lost in the drama. Sounds like he's gone around, under, and over you..... Maybe it does seem like a good time for the BSA folks to get involved. kinda seems like you need to take a look at this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units_March_2015.pdf and more specifically this statement: What happens to the unit funds and equipment should the unit dissolve? The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the chartered organization or the council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America. I can't out my finger on it at the moment.... but something else I recently found said basically this about the last sentence in the above reference.... that the CO can hold the stuff for use in basally forming another troop or they might agree to pass it along to another troop... as in a neighboring troop/CO.... or to the new CO where your old troop is going.... ....it's to be worked out between them and the BSA council. basically, The SM has nothing to do with it.

no direct idea... but I'll throw something out as brainstorming fodder... how about asking them (the 1st year WEBELOS) to be your co-MC's? Something that was suggested to me, but given the situation and people, I was never able to affect, was to give the WEBELOS more responsibility in preparation for boy-led patrol method. I did try to lean on them whenever I could, to do things like forming up the teams, leading games in the pack meetings, etc.... but I didn't do enough of that And now in hind site I really see that we failed in really gelling that den as a patrol and introducing to them what that really means. So my thought is this try to find a way to involve them in all the ceremonies, or at least some of them. maybe even the planning....who knows, they might be able to come up with some ideas....if you have time to meet with them before... I'm not really big on ceremonies for the sake of the ceremonies, but I do like the idea of making a "big deal" about some things. Trying to make things just a bit special. Think about it in terms of the patrol method. and give the WEBELOS scouts some responsibility. The boys will almost certainly have more fun with almost anything that way... and more fun when they are involved themselves, not simple spectators (not just the WEBELOS, all of them) They WILL have more fun with responsibility, than with any sort of ceremony that you can do "to them"

I'm with you Stosh, as you know.... I totally buy into that idea of no elections or terms.... well at least the adult defined or adult driven ones.... just dealing with the cards that are dealt and embracing that I am basically powerless to change it as a mere committee member

hey, that's great Eagle94! I think it goes to show that the cub program is a bit watered down from where it 'wants' to be. well really all of the BSA program.... the Wolf and Bear aged boys are pretty much ready to do stuff the ST2F scouts are doing.... and the T2F scouts are gearing up I think in at least many cases to more of what the venturing scouts are doing.... it would all be more fun all around I think.... I've been wanting to get my son out doing some backpacking since he was about that age. sadly I never made it happen. He hasn't been overly drawn to the idea, and we honestly just don't have many great trails to do it on around here.....

yeah, interesting thread me thinks.... I use to wonder about this idea a long time ago....long before i saw mention of the concept with relation to LNT. for example when buying a tent with multiple color options....buy the more brightly colored one, or the subdued brown/green color scheme? I used to think along the lines that the brighter color would be better, so as to allow others to see and avoid easier....to stay out of my campsite, etc.... and it would also give the advantage of being a bit more findable if I come up missing for whatever reason... Then, in some book or another, I read a suggestion that a more subdued color allows others to pass by on the trail (assuming I'm pretty well off it) without being distracted by unnatural clutter. I'll admit that I would appreciate that..... I'd much rather be hiking down the trail and feel like me and my group are the only ones there So I'll agree with the sentiment of ignoring the LNT police but on the other hand, I like to live by the golden rule, so there you go.... I think it makes sense to wear brightly colored stuff in situations where you might need it to be found & rescued, but otherwise be polite to others and turn down the volume (yeah volume of your radio and volume of your loud clothes too)

I've lost where this conversation came from now....but I'll comment on the APL thing. My son was appointed APL for his patrol of mostly new scouts (aka NSP ) interestingly enough, he is the only scout in the patrol that attended the obligatory ILST ppt slide show. It was 'offered' before his patrol fully formed, and being full of energy and being eager for scouting, he wanted to attend. His friend, who ultimately was voted in to be PL made no effort to go. as a baseline to the back story, the troop "requires" all newly elected and appointed PORs to attend the class, so every 6 months they hold their elections then soon after have the class. The elections were held when only my son and his one friend (the current PL) were in the troop, their 2nd meeting I think it was. So they held the ILST before the rest of the new scouts had crossed over out of WEBELOS. So anyway, it is interesting to watch these guys.... the PL has absolutely no clue what the idea is....and my son honestly isn't in a much better place really. but he does have the trained patch at least on his sleeve and he has me in the back seat, trying to steer his thinking through questions and suggestions....really trying hard to not tell him what he "should" be doing and so on..... just giving him nuggets to hopefully get his mind leaning towards and around the idea of supporting his patrol. So, he really hasn't done much of anything as APL, but he has done every bit as much as the PL has.... In the end, I can say confidently that he got little to almost nothing out of the PPt slide show (by his own admission and by my observation) but what he has received is a great lesson in a contest of popularity vs resume. I think he was just a tiny bit disappointed initially, but really not all that much. It truly was one of those shoulder shrugg moments.....ehhh.....oh look, can I have one of those cookies?

my 2 cents... and this is based on my being more familiar with the old cub program 1st - forget advancement and requirements.... at least as a primary goal anyway. Instead, focus on leading the scouts to have fun in an active program! Get outside and do "stuff" 2nd - I would strongly suggest a seriously strong crash course in Boy Scouts and the patrol method. In hind site, I wish that starting around bear, and especially into the WEBELOS year and a half or so, that we would have steered the den much more into being a boy-led patrol..... regardless of what the cub program really is. form the patrol encourage the boys to steer the ship sure, the 'game' can be to work on the cub requirements, but the "method" cold be using the patrol method. The scouts will get much more out of it and I believe they would have had more fun. (& i would have too!) As far as how much work is required form you. I think a lot of that depends on the person. Some folks are better at winging it than others..... but I suggest that it's smart to keep it in check, to whatever your limitations are. Don' burn yourself out. I've come to believe in the mantra, "Don't do anything that a scout could be doing"... in cubs, I might change that to "anything that a scout or his parent could be doing" A couple of recommended resources. Not directly related to Cub Scouts, but I wish that I would have read them while I was still active as a cub scouter 1) Baden Powel's Aids to Scoutmastership. I ordered a printed copy form amazon, but it's available online too. a quick and easy read. http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/ 2) this book also a quick read, gives a good perspective of what you are trying to groom the scouts towards. They are not there yet, but it's kinda good I think to know where you are going. http://scoutmastercg.com/far-good-new-scoutmasters-story/ 3) if you notice the links above, you can tell I'm a fan of http://scoutmastercg.com. I think much of what he says in his podcasts and blog posts really stand up to my gut-check logic and make some sense. Again, mostly as help to see where you are going, not so much for cubs directly.... BUT in hind site I really do think much of the patrol method could be applied very successfully to the cub level program.....much more than most of us knew at the time we were volunteering as Cub Scouters!

makes sense Krampus but from the perspective of most folks the cost to do the transaction over the web site using paypal is a known and "in your face" number meanwhile the cost for sending in a written check is zero.... so why would they pay for paypal? nobody would consider my time and effort even though my "trips to the bank" will be approaching zero, i might drop by for larger multi check deposits but for one off checks I will just deposit using ebanking and my cell phone's camera.... but nobody will consider that it takes my time to do this, then i have to go onto the troop web site and credit the money to the appropriate events then at some point I'll probably have to generate confirmations, answer questions as in when they forget if its paid or not, etc... but if they do it themselves, they check the box for the even when they make the paypal deposit, then everything is done except for my verifying (in theory at least).... but none of that would be considered by most folks.

I'd say something like "Have fun, and remember....don't do anything a scout could do for themselves!"

Our troop was set-up with paypal through the web site. We have been in a state of transition for a while now, so its turned off currently....trying to work with our CO to get new bank account set-up, etc.... way more headache that this needs to be.... but that's another issue. Before my time, but I am told that they got extremely low participation with it. Mostly it's adults handing adults checks. They just haven;'t had luck getting folks to log into the site to do things like payments, event sign ups, etc... My plan is to really push back on this as I come up to speed as treasurer.... except for the big dollar payments where fees get silly, as previously mentioned, there really is no need in my taking up that extra paperwork. Scouts can either go online themselves &/or get their parents to post payments for things there...... at the same time they are signing up and verifying for events and so on.... it's all automatic then..... and from the convenience of their living rooms in their underwear.... or whatever floats their boats. I was also handed a paypal dongle (like square) for use with smartphone. Haven't tried to use it yet since I need to set up a new paypal account.... But just under 'principle", I'm with Beavah on this one.... I'm not so keen about using it, even if it is signed up and going straight into the troop's account. I was thinking about making up a temporary patch though, to hang from my pocket button.... MC, Visa, AMEX, and Discover taken here.

yeah, i figured..... a para cord wrap more like a hiking stick handle, or a knife..... duck tape works too though.... a long as it's grey, black, or green camo..... not one of those pink ones....

lol I think I might go for a paracord wrap instead of the duck tape.... just to avoid the sticky residue!

can you point to a particular product?

oh, I wish that i was closer to a trail like it, any trail. I would love to try some short segments.... even just on my own with scoutson, if not with the troop. I did some backpacking up around Boone NC when i was in college.... I have always used that as my baseline for what camping really is.