blw2

Our fundraising is adult conceived and adult driven The only reason we're doing it is "so the boys learn"....but with adults doing 90% of it what are they learning? Even if it was 100% scouts coming up with the idea and making it happen, I still think it should be secondary at best to scouting. With such a limited amount of time available in the week, I'd rather scouts spend there time scouting and doing scout stuff rather than learning about finances and the like... they can learn that elsewhere. I do support the idea of a scout using his own money to pay for things, but that doesn't have to be a troop function all the time... My family is just wrapping up GS cookie deliveries. A lot of work for not much benefit. Put me in the camp of "I'd rather write a check"

I used to attend RT's fairly regularly but it was a chore and I can't say that I got a huge benefit from them. Every now and then a tidbit perhaps, but not a huge help... I have often though of this forum as a modern version of what Roundtable was intended to be. A place to bounce ideas and questions around.... In my thinking, the social aspects of getting to know others is almost secondary.....and announcements and the like, maybe tertiary I never really thought of it as a training venue. Honestly, I feel it's nearly infinitely better here, because compared to the monthly meeting, that is a moment in time then it's gone and it's so extremely limiting Because it's a finite time, Only so many people will have a chance to ask a question or to add to a conversation, but here anyone can chime in RT is limited because it's Thursday evening and I normally can't get there without adding a bunch of stress to my family (wife works late on Thursdays) RT is limiting because so much of the available time is taken up with announcements and other things that may or not be of any interest to me. The only limitation here is that far too few folks participate and if many more did, then I just wouldn't have the time to read every post

ha ha.. mid sized units too. when I was CM, I also wore the hat (even though other names were on the roster) of CC, ACM, and at least two of the other MC positions

don't get me wrong... I wasn't really proposing this idea exactly, more just playing devil's advocate for sake of conversation around the campfire here..... When i read what he wrote, I think the point to restrict to around 32 scouts or so was for SM being able to give proper individual attention. Stosh, to your point about letting the SPL set the tone instead of the SM set the tone..... well really, that you as SM setting the tone to be scout lead. Exactly what I meant.... the SM sets the tone. (he guides, and if done the way I think it would be best, he runs interference blocking negative adult influences so the scouts are free to do their thing) Your point about a new ASM for each 32 scouts was exactly my point! @@Eagledad, yes.... the logistics would be problematic.....but then again....if you have a couple ASM's over each set of "32", then they have that end of it covered just as any smaller troop would be. It's the committee that would get stretched a bit more....but there would be overlap too, maybe not so bad.... File 3 tour permits rather than just one.... IMHO a troop really ought to be doing this sort of thing anyway, based on what each patrol wants to be doing. I don't know... that whole idea was just about a troop not wanting to turn away scouts..... when what really might ought to happen is when a troop gets a significant number over the "32" scouts, that they split into two troop. That's probably the better scenario in the context of what BP was getting at....but talk about stretching the adults.... now that's stretching things!

I think this makes a whole lot of sense. Focus on the patrol, not the troop. Scouts are patrol members first and foremost, so if you can get everyone thinking that way it seems like its a more manageable bite sized snack! I wonder if it would be good for a larger troop to think of themselves as a collection of smaller troops...... I know this is not how things are intended....but running with the thinking that the total roster is no more than 32 scouts so that each scout can get individual attention form their scoutmaster and from the program and that no troop really wants to turn away scouts, or really break up and find other CO's to take them so the SM is over the whole thing of course..... setting the tone for the troop but what if you subdivide that troop into.... well let's call them platoons for the lack of anything better? each platoon has an ASM, and is made up of 4 or 5 patrols to meet BP's magic "32" number of scouts. and then think of each "platoon" as anyone else would a troop. Platoon A could go to a different summer camp than platoon B, and so on..... Each platoon does everything a troop would do normally, and about the only thing the platoons share would be the number on the sleeve. Seems like it works for troops of around 60 or more active scouts, until you start considering a troop trailer for each "platoon", or stuff like that... hmmm.... I wonder, do any of you with mega troops out there do this sort of thing?

My son wouldn't even consider going to a troop without his friends, and it would be a tough sell for him to go to a troop at a strange meeting place and strange leaders even with his friends coming along. Going to a troop in a strange place where he knows nobody and alone with none of his friends along..... forget about it! No way would that ever happen. Scouts just isn't that important to him. I can imagine a lot of scouts are this same way. Yeah, I have to agree with others..... #1 seems like the best way to steer him

my thought.... I agree with NJCubScouter. You've been a good neighbor. Can't really worry about them or do anything for them. Can't even really go over and tell them what they are doing wrong... that's kinda like going to the neighbor's house and telling him his living room walls would look better yellow (taken loosely from Clarke Green) but I do like the sentiment that someone wrote earlier about helping them to know what you are doing.... being willing and open to show and help. and my other thought is this.... any time I read about large troops, I think of this one short chapter, by BP himself http://scoutmastercg.com/aids-scoutmastership/#OneReason Why a Troop Should not Exceed Thirty Two but what to do? I surely don't have the answer. Don't want to turn boys away, but is bringing them in in the best interest all around? granted, the more modern model with multiple ASMs sorta trumps old BP's 32 in some ways, but I think the logic is still quite sound.

It makes things adult heavy only from the context of having more adults on the roster than necessary. i didn't mean that it necessarily must lead to adult lead or anything like that..... but I'd guess odds are in favor of that. I think adults that are willing to fill out the application have a desire to help. A lot of folks that want to help don't do a great job of standing around with their hands in their pockets and their mouths shut.... Remember, in the purest since of all of this, most of scouting could and arguably should run without adults in the room.....and when that adult is in the room, it's generally going to be the SM, who is merely there as an adviser or counselor of sorts. Then, outside that room add in an ASM or three to the roster, and 4-6 good committee members and that is a full house for an adult roster. So that's around 10 adults maybe....do you really need 10 more?

wow, lots of great comments and conversation. Can't even begin to comment on all of it..... will add about my thoughts on this issue..... I've always in my mind followed the logic that BP outlined, that patrols are formed naturally.... groups of friends that just naturally want to hang together. Extending that logic, the younger ones might look up to older scouts, and the older scouts might do well in leading and helping along, but it doesn't make sense to force them together into a friendship group. Those things can still happen from patrol to patrol. it hit me the other night that the focus on which way to go it depends greatly on your locus for which you define the goal and how you define success based on the answer I got from the ASPL, for our "troop" the Goal = advancement Success = making rank When I step back and analyze things, it seems to me that they tried the NSP for basically 1 year. It didn't "work" because none made 1st class, none made second class, and only 1 or 2 are close to tenderfoot. But I'm seeing a couple reasons for this that are not at all addressed in the solution.... The TG and Instructors that worked with the new guys only did so sporadically, and when they did it was just reading to them out of teh handbook. Evenif the scouts all already knew the answer, they still got the pleasure of listening to that older scout read to them. And the other reason seems a bit more complex, but it has to do with a mix of things..... scouts being unsure of themselves and timid, not wanting to approach the SM with a question of for a sign off, and also scouts not having an abundance of opportunity to do that, or to work on things. Also it seems to me taht a better approach is to put scouts into opportunities where the learn or work on requirements when they don't even know they are.... the just think they are doing something fun.... I just don't see a lot of that... Anyway, I think @@MattR put it well about friends No, well my son is PL, although he's really to inconfident to speak up much and certainly isn't given much clout from what I can tell. It seems that he did speak up about it on a couple occasions And from what I know, no effort was made to let individual scouts give input on who they want to be with.... although it does look like some effort was made to pair obvious friends. I think it was the PLC, steered by adults. and @@sst3rd. Well put I think.... as I have been considering this recent turn of events, I do think it has a decent chance of "working", to the aim of advancement..... but it won't be succesful (in my definition of success anyway) since in the setting of the troop meetings, the scouts sit as patrols and so there will be routinely more "contact" with older scouts.... so advancement might happen a bit more efficiently.... but our patrols only seem to function as patrols for purposes of sitting together at the indoor troop meetings, and they plan meals and cook at camp together and otherwise it's generally more of a troop than patrols so I predict generally that the older scouts will still hang with their older friends, and the younger scouts will still hang together

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking the dynamic is more complex than this. I guess I painted that picture, but truthfully the SM is pretty good about letting the scouts do some things.... you might say the scouts "run" the general troop meetings more often than not, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "leading". He and the other ASM's too, do a fairly good job of this I think..... They do a good job I think, but at the same time not so much.... if that makes sense. The few times i have observed at camp, they are pretty good too about giving the scouts space. Your story of 10 scouts visiting and 10 adults joining.... makes me shudder a bit. That has the makings of becoming very adult heavy. If you're not careful you'll have adults standing around thinking they need to do something... I think that is kindof our troops thorn. We have several scouters that are very active and very involved

For those of you that believe in the concept of mixed or what I have heard called traditional patrols, what is your main driving force for steering it this way? and why, in your mind, is it successful? Does it point to an aim or goal that scouting is supposed to fill? Is it for rank advancement purposes? Is it to foster friendships? Is it done only because that's what the book says to do? something else? The reason I ask is that, as I mentioned in another thread, son's PLC last night did a complete dismantling of all current patrols and reorganizing the roster into "traditional patrols". I have some thoughts, of course, but also something just hit me last night that tied a couple of concepts together in my mind, that had never occurred to me before in quite this way. Put another way, please define two things for me....in how they relate to this question of patrol makeup. What is/are the aim(s) of scouting? How do you know when you are successful?

Hey, I'm glad this thread popped back up.... I'm still thinking on this, and searching for ideas and options.... Lately, I have been reading about the Benton Mackaye Trail, which I had not heard of till only recently.... Anyway, i have been meaning to pull out the books and check.... what are teh mileage requirements for scouts. I know there's things like the 50 mile patch.... & I know son had to do a 5 mile hike for his scout badge but what sort of length requirements for distance are there? was thinking that IF i end up doing something with scouts, I'd hate for the group to plan around a 23 mile hike when they need 25 for something....

So I'm sorry to say I had to drag my son to his PLC yesterday. Normally I wouldn't do that, but there were a couple of extenuating circumstances that made me feel it was necessary for him to follow through with his commitment as PL. I did not attend, and don't normally since I'm MC. Even though I would be welcomed, I don't feel it's my place... in fact I think adult presence should be minimal if at all there.... But the "funny thing" after the meeting, son tells me that it started with a long lecture form Mr. SM telling them that they are supposed to be boy lead, that they need to take charge, etc.... then...... when it was time to move on.....wait for it.... Mr. SM begins to tell them all about what it is they are going to do next.... how to do it, etc.... .....and the crux of the meeting seems to have been a dismantling of all current patrols and reorganizing the roster. I think I'll start a new thread with my thoughts.... but on our way home, I was giving the ASPL a ride. I was trying my best to keep it conversational and totally neutral.... not sure I was able to do that but I was trying.... Anyway, I asked what was the driver to cause them to want to do this.... The ASPL's answer was it was because the NSP was not advancing.... and my son said, well what if I don't want to advance? What if I just want to have fun?

I love this idea.... We did this back in my cub days, but it was informal and just sorta happened.... some times. I wish we would have formally say down and discussed this with the other scouters. My suggestion, and this is looking at it in hind site.... I really wish that I would have learned more about the patrol method when i was working in the pack. now I know Tigers are a long way off from this.... but I believe the concept can still work on some levels. involve the scouts in running the show, put them to work. I don't know if tigers is still this way, but it used to be that it was supposed to be a shared leadership thing, with scout/parent teams taking turns. You as DL would be overseeing and facilitating, but all the scouts and parents would be engaged. Wouldn't apply very closely, but a couple easy reads that helped me to understand the patrol method and where these cubs are ultimately going if they stick with scouts BP's Aides To Socutmastership, you can read it online over at scoutmastercg.com and also over there, get Clarke's book "So Far So Good."

this seems like a great twist to the way of looking at it and approaching the issue. Exactly the sort of thing I struggle with sometimes, coming up with these flip-flops on the fly.... I'll keep this in mind and see if I can find a way to work that in... I actually love the idea. A neighborhood Patrol really does strike me as something a bit more natural in a way. In our case, our troop is really more like a community or small city in geographic area. Scouts going to several different schools and not living at all close to one another. Not really conducive to how it once was.... I just started reading "Rocks in My Backpack". Was chuckling about some of teh stories he told about being a young scout in 1940's Wisconsin. Riding bikes to and from troop meetings, getting into mischief with his buddies on the way home form the troop meeting, and so on. That sort of stuff aint happening for our scouts!

yeah, standard canned scouter answer.... you be the change. I've heard that before. Training....I've already done it.... used to attend RT's regularly. Been to U of Scouting many times, have all the required training for all the positions I've ever held as scouter, additionally for those positions I do but unofficially, currently have all the required training for SM, do a lot of extracurricular reading here (closing in on 2,000 posts), other blogs and sites, podcasts, and books on scouting. I do a lot of thinking about scouting. I'm guessing, but I think safe to say more than the "average" scouter by far. and woodbadge..... I have considered doing it, and even started to do it once or twice but the dates always conflicted. Regardless, we have a lot of woodbadgers already. I can verify through experience that WB in and of itself, doesn't help....but I see your point about actually making THIS a ticket item..... Also, great point about his patrol "vetoing". He knows this I believe, but it's hard for an 11 year old scout rank pushing against senior scouts (that have been through NYLT) and adults that tell him contrary things. (an example, patrol level POR's such as QM. He knows the PL handbook tells about them, but older scouts insist they are not positions) I heard this great analogy just yesterday, although not the 1st time, in a podcast over at scoutmastercg..... You can go into your friend's living room, and suggest that it would look better if he painted the walls green. You can even bring over the paint and brushes. But if he says no thanks. The conversation is over. That's kinda the way this is. He has been through ILST twice now, but he's not old enough for NYLT. I mentioned in my OP his excitement before he attended ILST the 1st time (when he wanted to run for PL). I did ask him about this. Tried to get him to reflect on that feeling. It was an interesting conversation.... He didn't put it exactly this way, but summing it up he was excited about the idea of it, but it lost value once he saw how empty it all is... the requirement to take the class I mean (the class is required by the troop for any POR, but he's the only one in the patrol that took it. Another scout was elected PL and that scout never took it.), and now that he's PL this time around he sees the concept of a position of responsibility but with no real authority. As I write this, I think that the BSA might be it's own worst enemy in a way against the patrol method. NYLT graduates and wood badgers don't seem to get it, so it makes me wonder.....

the thing is none of his friends are going to summer camp either. None of them want to go, and that's the biggest reason he's not going i think. I had actually thrown that out there about going to a local camp instead.... but yeah, there is no way he would do that on his own, and there's no interest enough to try to talk his friends into trying it. I think some of them might be going to non-bsa camps anyway and to set the record straight.... I just typed 16 hours.... I think that's what he said, not sure. It's really more like 10 or so hours drive time, and from what I can tell it's not going to be a bad camp, as BSA camps go. Looks to me like it might actually be better than the one they did last year..... but it's still a "classroom camp"

If I could just get myself to stop doing all this extracurricular reading and caring and start just going with the flow like most "average" scouters.

I have made a lot of effort to suggest and hint whenever appropriate, but I've also been careful with it. I don't want to be that guy is is being critical and undermining of the person out "front". I'm not in that position, and certainly don't know it all... and furthermore I'm not that good at that sort of thing.... correcting in a "nice" way. There's a certain bit of cooperative volunteerism to take a term from Clarke Green, that I feel I need to do. After all, I'm the "new" guy, I'm not the one asked to be one of those key positions. I have been tempted on a few occasions to forward over something like that... something I've read. Here's one that I stumbled across not even looking for it.... https://scoutmastercg.com/a-troop-revolution/ it was linked to in another conversation about something else entirely, but I feel that there are some nuggets in there that might help. I'd like to forward this over to not just the SM, but the committee too. The thing is, there are a lot of things in there that could be taken as an insult too. When I think about it though, I'm making these suggestion to folks that are heavily involved up to their elbows. Invested in what they think is a great way to do it. What they have been trained and it's what they understand. Some of them are beaded woodbadgers, etc.... Some are just involved parents that really don't know that they don't know. Those are just continuing on what they learned form the pack and "doing there best". And when I boil it down form that angle, I'm just a guy trying to help them, trying to cooperate, and trying to do my bit so that the scouts can get the most possible out of things. These folks aren't asking for advice, and if I'm not careful I'll never earn trust enough to really make a difference and on the other hand, if I do nothing it's too late for my son to experience what it "could be" A long time ago I resigned to be content knowing that the scouts are getting some good out of the program as long as the scouters are doing no harm. The scouts might not be getting the maximum potential from scouting, but they're getting some good. But now, as I see early warning signs that my son is quitting, he may get less....

yeah, move to another troop is great on paper. in reality though, there aren't an infinite number of troops in a reasonable radius, and in our case like a lot of others I'm sure.... those few that are here aren't any better. Besides, It's not so bad as I would imagine a revolt of my son and several friends wanting to up an leave together. No way he would do it on his own. His friends are here. he knows the faces, knows the drill. It's comfortable. And really, it's not that bad. Not at all. It's much more subtle in this case....

I posted this statement in another thread, but thought I'd elaborate .... As MC I'm nearly powerless on my own to stave off the adult onslaught against the patrol method. I'm starting to realize that It's a big ship for one person to turn, if he's not one of the "key 3" Son doesn't want to go to summer camp last years MB fair fest of a summer camp program didn't really excite him He's not interested in driving 16 hours to go someplace similar this coming summer. Adults push to do summer camp far away in the mountains.... (they say the scouts decide, but the scouts are easily manipulated in these sorts of planning decisions) He's PL of his NSP....well I guess it's not technically NSP any longer, but still..... but he has lost all of the excitement and drive I saw early on, and I don't see any interest from him in fostering a job that is clearly not real. He's never been one to eagerly pursue getting signoffs and making rank..... he's just along for the ride, and so advancement is stagnant. Has one thing left to do, and needs to talk to someone, but he is shy about making it happen and meanwhile the SM and ASMs are busy with all sorts of other business and I don't think there has been much individual fostering happening for any of the scouts.... And this morning he tells me that he doesn't want to be split away from his friends. We were talking about what is happening with the new scouts that just joined. I knew there was a decision to blend them in rather than do the NSP, but apparently his ASPL told him that they would be splitting up patrols. There's more.... but what's the point? What I see is way too much adult interference squashing out the fun, and killing a lot of the good that can be had from the patrol method program. Really is too bad. I just thought of something as i typed this.... I think tonight I'm gonna ask him to think back to that excitement he had, that time as he was going to take ILST the first time, right after he was selected to be APL. I remember him eager to go....chomping at the bits!

exactly what I was wondering Stosh! As I think about it I have seen only a very few scouts wearing an eagle rank.... ever. We had a scout pass his eagle BOR yesterday evening. I have not seen this scout in my year with the troop, save for about a handful or two of meetings. I think he's got a couple more years till 18, so there might be hope though. We've got a couple other scouts on track I think to get theirs "early" too I think. Might be good..... I want to agree Colonel (love the username, btw) but can't completely. Without adults at the helm that foster it, it's not very realistic I think in man cases to think a scout is going to have what it takes to make significant change in his short time with a troop. I'm 50 years old, but as MC I'm nearly powerless on my own to stave off the adult onslaught against the patrol method. What's a young scout to do? I'm starting to realize that It's a big ship for one person to turn, if he's not one of the "key 3"

I'm not deaf nor a lip reader, but I do have a hearing loss and tinitus I do have difficulty hearing presenters sometimes so I probably do lip read a bit, even though I'm not aware. Anyway, my point is that this topic really applies to a lot of people, not just the deaf.

bowing to 'political correctness'. A very dangerous thing me thinks. bewa ha ha!! Funny!!! No kidding. Whether you Agree about coed or not, that is exactly where it is heading and this whole business is just the muddy zone in the middle. Cut to the chase BSA and change your name already!!!

stand in front of the presentation so that the audience can read some of the slide but not all of it.... for example a graph, where the presenter is standing to the side but in front of the Y axis legend..... so the audience has no idea what it is showing and the presenter is talking about it but never mentions what exactly that y axis represents.....