SSScout

It boils down to how involved do you feel moved to become. Everything is a test, after all. There have been times when I walk up ane get involved. There have been times when, hours, days later, I find myself thinking "gee, I shoulda done something", but maybe it's too late, and but maybe I find something to do or say that helps prevent or improve a future event. Maybe. Whether it is that turtle you didn't stop to pick up and carry to the other side, or the Cub Scout who is waving a pocket knife around like an x-wing fighter, or the mother who is getting close to violence with her child in the supermarket, how and when and what regrets (or satisfaction) one feels is determined by past events, training, sensitivity to the movement of the Spirit in your life, whether or not someone helped you when you were in need. Lots of shoulda , coulda, mighta, comes up. In the extreme example, I am reminded of the following: ""First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. = Martin Niemoller = "" Think hard when an opportunity is presented to you. How will you feel later if you do not act or speak?

There was once a bank robber (in Florida, I think)who was quoted as saying he robbed banks because "that's where the money is". May be appochryphal, but it sounds good. Same thing here. In ACA, Follow the money. Despite any public moans from the insurance companies, guess what? They are now guaranteed income from the required need to sign on to health insurance. Competition lowering costs? Maybe. Big maybe. The alternatives are/were: Stay the same, single payer, some hybrid combination. Single payer? Somebody has to administer it and wow, what a gigantic government agency that would create. But then, we already have lots of them, and very successful and well overseen (?term?) too. IRS, Social Security, all open to public scrutiny when necessary. Private companies? Not so much. Our duelly elected representatives (we are a republic, right?) have settled the matter for the present. As has been said, the new ACA is not perfect, but it is a start in the right direction. It will be adjusted in future as the public gets used to it, I am sure.

I find the title of this thread perhaps inaccurate. The story told sounds more like a "firing" rather than a chance to "resign". I, too, would seek to be told the truth of the matter. Be polite, be factual and unemotional in your pursuit of the who and why of this, but be persistant. Insist that the folks that have told you that you are personna non grata stand behind their decision and give you the reasons. They want you to just "accept things the way they are" and move on. The reference letters from others that know you and your record are a good idea, but will likely not change the mind of the people in question. I would have them addressed to your Council President ( I think that is the GSUSA equivalent), and not just to the person that sent you the firing letter. Open their eyes to the situation. The reference letters will, however, do wonders for restoring your own confidence. And, the request for them will help tell your letter writers of your problem with (?) someone or with some policy or with THEIR (the firing letter authors) problem. The more light shown on a problem, the better. Let us know the result of your quest. You have my sympathy. I have been there and done that. YiS

About the only thing required for beading is that your WB SM and/or Troop Guide be present. Or not, I guess. My good friend wanted me to do the neckerchiefing and beading, (he claimed I had inspired him to take the WB) so I showed up at his District awards dinner (he was being made the District Chaplain) and so I came up front when he and his WB cohorts were called forward to be wrapped and woggled and beaded. And I sang too. No dance, just stood. It's been done at Troop CoHs, campouts, roundtables, Pack CoHs, church callouts, OA ceremonial dance contests, so why not a regatta? In the program, it can be called "Special Award" or some such.

And so, it's time for... the reeeeeest of the story (wish someone would rerun Paul Harvey's feature.) Crew returned from NMexico none the worse for wear. Stuff is getting washed and dried and put away. Story is that the dad in seegar need bowed to culture norm and requirements and left all tobacco in the trailhead locker. Scoutson reports a good trek. No big thunderstorms like last time, not like at home, where we had BIG thunderstorms.

I think echaney has heard all the good answers here. Make sure the IH and COR are informed of what has happened. Make sure the DE and Commissioner know about what happened. Speak to the school and see if there was a break down in communication and authority (teacher OKing the project when the Principal should have?) Picking up pieces and moving on to new unit with rest of sinking ship survivors (metaphor?). Exploring the possibility of the noted project actually serving as the Eagle candidate's project. Possibility of a COuncil EBoR under protested circumstances (maybe not needed yet). Extra info: In our newly balkanized council/service area/district, there is a tradition of the Troop (thru committee approval and SM approval) passing the project on to the District Eagle Advisor for approval. I have seen several projects get tweekked in Troop committee, committee members having knowledge of construction or other skills. When the project is OKed by the DEA, then it is up to the Scout and beneficiary to make it happen. The District sponsors the Eagle Board of Review. They are scheduled twice a month, if no one needs to be seen, they don't happen. Might be three held at the same time, in the same church basement. Each board is chaired by a member of the District Advancement committee, and the other three or four folks on the board are volunteers and usually include folks that bring the Scout for his EBoR. Yes, might be other parents. The SM escorting the Scout does not sit on any EBoR. The few I have sat on were more than congratulatory efforts. We read thru the records and sometimes found discrepencies to explain, either by the Scout or perhaps the SM. We also found lots of things to celebrate: worthy projects, glowing recommendations, indications of a Scout's history and culture. The conversations ranged from complaints about Philmont's food to memories of learning to fix blisters and being satisfied about the completion of the project. The EBoRs that I have participated in were all "successful", and we gladly signed the paperwork involved. I heard stories, however, from my fellow Scouters about some that were not, but that is for another ecracker barrel. I think echaney's boy will learn from his experience and a(with the right attitude) be the better for it. Whether the SM in question will learn from his experience remains to be seen.

"I'm sorry you feel that way. Here's what it says in the Academic and Sports BeltLoop requirements (see http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Cub%20Scouts/UniformsAndAwards/sanda.aspx ). ((Editor's note: Perhaps mom would like to review the "Good Manners" BL)) "I am sure that the Council Program Director will be glad to speak with you. Here's Mister Mxyzptlk's phone number. "As to the Aquanaut pin, I can accept the fulfilling of the requirements at a YWCA pool. Have the Pool Manager review the requirements and send me a note that little Reginald has passed them. " I am gratified that you are so involved in Reginald's life. Many other parents are not. I'm sure Reggie will appreciate your concern when he is older."

How very sad. Echaney: I hope you can bring this situation to the attention of the COR and IH. Make them understand. If there is more than a few other Scouts and parents of like mind, gather them and make your case as a group. Legalistically speaking, I don't think the SM by himself can kick a boy out of Scouting. It takes the agreement of the WHOLE committee (what was the quorum? Oh. yes. Whoever shows up... another point to make to the IH and COR),and the IH and the COR Due process? Answering charges? Innocent until proven otherwise? And of what, exactly? And if I remember correctly, all that has to go thru the Council hands and National hands too. His name will be on the charter until rechartering time, too. As to the project(s), I am glad to hear a "Council Leader" is aware and helping. The more this problem is heard of, the better. I hear your passion. Give vent to it. Show this problem the light of day and make the SM answer to his self made situation.

I hope that the Scoutleaders in question understand the possible family dynamics at work. *It is possible that the mom/dad is bribing the boy for his love/affirmation. Unfortunate, but it happens. * It is not only the spoiled rotten kid syndrome, it is the "I don't dare refuse him" syndrome. Pity the poor parent who is afraid of saying no to his/her child. At age twelve, it is almost too late. * And, If the parent has lower expectations of their boy, who is he to rise above them? YOU set YOUR expectations and watch the boy meet them at camp. Here's where the SM Minute can be used to good effect. * True story at CSDC: Dad comes up to Asst. CD and asks if they know anyone he could PAY to take his place as a DWalker. Pay the DWalker, pay the boy to be a Scout. There are such people out there. * And here is where the ScoutLeader must make the Real World come into contact with the Fantasy World of the "I can do anything I want" mentality. Med forms, candy stocks, cell phone/text tablets, sugary soda, if they have them, it's because you made the rules and did not mak'em stick. WHen I was my daughter's soccer team coach, I made my team drink a cup of water BEFORE they went on the field, made a big difference in their performance first half. I also asked them which of them had suger pops for breakfast, which had other breakfasts, and we compared notes as to who had the stamina and who didn't. One parent brought mini sodas for the half time snack, and I had to say no, and asked them to go get something else. Fruit, Capri Sun, not soda. I asked the team to make their own conclusions about what gave them stamina/energy and what didn't. Seemed to work, we had two winning seasons after one losing one.

Trev: I don't think it was that, so much. I was the senior fella in my classification, and got to pick time first, so my habit was to save up my leave, and, instead of scheduling a week here and a week there, as some of my buddies did, or maybe an extra friday or monday, I would claim the whole month of July . Or August. But the idea of "better scheduling illnesses and emergencies" stuck with me. I have no idea what Mike did. He would pick up his pay stub, look at it right at the dispatch window, and ask for a leave request slip. More than once I heard him say to himself, "ummm, 9 hours of annual. I'll take this friday off."

Ancillary topic: Once, in a discussion of the financial condition of our Meeting, the discussion swung between the number of families donating, the various amounts (no names were mentioned), the idea that it seemed to be always the same families and how to encourage others. We were reminded that folks give as the Spirit moved them, and possibly as an indcation of the importance of Meeting to them. It was then suggested that , as an indication of how important Meeting was to folks, perhaps we should charge admission. This suggestion was not adopted.

The test of something like this is to see if it has been done before. Will people PAY to see someone do flag stuff? Specifically USA flag stuff? http://www.usarmyband.com/events/twilight_tattoo.html Oh, wait. That's free admission. http://www.nps.gov/fomc/parknews/us-navy-to-perform-at-twilight-tattoo-ceremony.htm Nope, free to the public.... I think the offer of a proper flag ceremony is good. Witnesses to the things Scouting should be about. ASKING for a "donation"....ummmmm, no. Accepting one if offered, maybe. Reminding folks what the US flag represents, appropriate.

I believe Humpty Dumpty might be a candidate for the postion of Director of Requirement Limitation and Deliniation: """When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all."

That's the idea. Organize, delegate, schedule, ask for help and donations, make sure the social hall is available, try granddad's sauce recipe and multiply it up. Make sure someone knows how to boil spaghetti to "al dente", not "al mush". And fill out the Form , see Basement dweller. Oh, and have fun.... Do the "Search" function above for lots of confusing comments about all sorts of fund raising.

The Local Option.... One can "interpret" the written requirements however one wants, but the Scout will know whether or not he has fulfilled them. Yes, he wants the badge/patch. Yes, he wants the recognition. But he also wants the knowledge and skill. If the "participation" only requires standing and watching others clip, haul,unclip, fold and walk ceremoniously, then that's easy. Tell the boys how to do it and sign it off at the dinner table. Yes, the boy will "do his best" , but at what? Give them the opportunities. That's the unwritten part of the Law of the Pack, you know. That's the line that was left out by that unnamed, too tired secretary so long ago. The Cub Scout follows Akela, The Pack helps the Cub Scout grow. The Cub helps the Pack GO. ((The parent helps the Pack go, too)). The Cub Scout gives good will. Oh, the results of that oversight. If only.... But luckily, most parents see the gap and provide the missing words, at least in their mind's ear. In the case before our etribunal, I think the need is to provide opportunities for the Cubs to DO flag ceremonies OUTDOORS. This involves adults becoming knowledgeable about flag lore, history, ettiquette and the physics of poles, ropes and clips and pulleys. Yep, school flagpoles , fire depts, camps, Isaac Walton League , baseball games, CSDCs, backyards, all can be used. Usually, some ex-Scout dad or ex-military mom will see the need and step up. But how about the not so experienced parent? Point them in the direction of the Wolf or Bear book, which repeats much of the US Flag code as to how to display and fold and take care of the flags of our nation and state. Or contact the DE, or Commissioner, or Council an they can recommend an experienced person who can pass on the needed lore and knowledge. But don't short change the boy and leave him thinking even this can be had by osmosis. What, after all is he absorbing, by watching, rather than doing? By the way, when yo go into your local hardware store and see the display of US flags, ask them about your STATE flag? Bet they haven't a clue about how to get them to sell to you.

true story. I was once called into my super's office. She was attended by ANOTHER super, so I knew something was up. She hands me a paper that listed all the paid leave I had used over the past year, and told me that this indicated a "poor use of leave". I looked it over and noted that it included my prescheduled vacation time, several pre schduled doctor appointments ( for both me and my daughter, I was then a single parent) and a number of emergencies (flat tire coming to work, daughter injured at school, etc.) I mentioned the above observations, that I still had several hundred hours of leave in my "bank", and I knew of several of my coworkers with NONE in their banks (use it as they get it) , I asked what she meant? She said she wanted me to (wait for it....) "better schedule my illnesses and emergencies". I thanked her for her concern and left the office. I sent a copy of the paper and my comments to my union office. Never had another mention of "poor leave useage" again. I am not anticrastination. Definitely procrastination. Never put off until tomorrow the emergency you can have today.

Here's the Local Option again. It is up to the passing/signing off authority. Of course, this can be done anywhere an outdoor flagpole presents itself. American Legion, school yard, hockey game, soccer pitch, baseball field, Forth of July picnic. You can arrange it many ways. Here's one opportunity: At our CSDC, it means "participate", not just "watch". To that end, we erected three flag poles: US, State, and Camp. (Pioneering chance for the Boy Scout helpers!) That meant that other than the first day's flag ceremony (done by staff), each flag ceremony needed at least four(Cubs) times three (flags) Cubs. And maybe one to call the commands or read the history (see below). Alot of the Cubs had already passed that requirement, so they could pass on the opportunity. Therefore,after Monday's ScoutSkill Pavilion about Flag courtesy and folding, each Den could field 12 or 13 Cubs to do the ceremonies. From a local Troop, we borrowed a collection of reproduction historic American flags (13 star, 15 star, 34 star, 48 star, and 50 star) so each day we read a short history of that flag as it was presented and raised. Here was the schedule: Monday morn, Staff does it with a 50 star flag. American flag, then state, then camp. Smartly done, Staff practiced this the day before at least once(!). Monday eve, Den one does the retrieval. The 13 star flag is displayed and mentioned. Camp flag, State flag and lastly US flag is lowered and folded. CG marches (walks? strolls? they are Cubs...) off the field. Tuesday morn, Den two does the honors (three flags) and the 15 star is flown and spoken of. Tuesday eve, Den three lowers the flags. Weds. morn, 34 star (Civil War time), Den four. Weds. eve., Den five. Thursday morn, 48 stars, Den six. Thursday eve, Den seven. Friday morn, 50 star (did you know it was designed by an Ohio art student?), Den eight. Friday eve, Den nine collects the flags. And, before the final lowering, we try to arrange a retirement by fire of some worn and torn flags. Needs another Den to help with that. This too, is an "outdoor flag ceremony". Now, mind you, these are Cub Scouts, doing this with only alittle rehearsal (usually at lunch time) and with ALOT of adult or Scout coaching and help with ropes and knots and such. But it is worth it when "the plan comes together". Fewer Cubs? Less than nine or ten Dens? Adjust accordingly. Tips: Make sure the pulleys run freely and rope is not too big for the sheave. DONOT use twisted rope, use braided. DONOT try to have Cubs tie flag on to rope loops, Use clips:Color code the clips: Blue carabiner for the UP end , red for the DOWN end. Tie clips on tight and tar tape over knots for security. Duct tape falls off and gets gooey, tar tape (also called friction tape) is more permanent. Consider using a string between the clips to prevent the EMBARASSING occurance of the rope falling and running up the pole without a flag attached (then you have to drop the pole to retrieve the rope!). Flags may not be all the same size, so clips need to be "adjustable". But to my mind, "participate" means "participate". PM me for the scripts, if you like. MiF KiS YiS(This message has been edited by SSScout)

Bdweller: Where were you when the Fed Budget was being written? Save us taxpayers a heap o' money. BDweller for President!

The most "creative" Eagle Service Projects are those that, when the boy saw a need, he worked to fill it, not merely find "something to do" to meet the requirement. The lucky ones are those that didn't go around saying "I need an Eagle project" but found themselves saying "Hey, here's something that needs to be done. Can I do this for my project?" * Wanted to renovate a whole barn at the County Fair grounds. Paint, replace boards, new roof, rot replace, level edges, new rollup doors, heavy up electric panel, etc. Barn Supervisor helped him whittle it down to a much needed roof edge/eave encasing. Two full days, 25 boys, Scouts, 4H members, skilled men tutoring boys and girls in construction techniques and pride of craft. * His Faith required a witness about the draft. He and his Scout buds and church youthgroup researched the Selective Service, the law, drafted a booklet about registering for the Selective Service and choices as to Consciencious Objector status. Got it edited and Okayed for accuracy by knowledgeable folks. Published and disseminated it nationwide. * Boy's family had made use of the McDonald's House at the cancer center. The McDonald's House needed a patio and furniture for it's visitors. Raised funds, oversaw landscaping (by hand), bought and assembled furniture. Lovely place to catch sun (SPF50 covered, natch). * Historic area. Boy researched area's sites, he and buds got permission to put up signs in front of historic sites, developed walking/driving tour. Wrote and publish tour guide, available at local museum, restaurants. Scout signs have since been replaced or removed as unnecessary or updated by park people. * Boy visited local historic site often, lived nearby. Saw "benign neglect " was taking a toll, even tho site was under the care of three local service clubs. Consulted family member who was knowledgeable about landscaping, etc. Obtained permission to redo landscaping around site to help prevent flooding, repaired stonework, brought other needs to the attention of the clubs' leadership. Much handwork by Scouts and school chums. This is not to denegrate the "I need a project" Scout, but only to note that we can do the Scout a big favor by helping them to SEE with an eye to fill a need , rather than an eye to fulfill a requirement. Does that make sense?

Yes, excellent plan. Mucho Congrats to you both. By the way, I vote for apple spice cake with cream icing ;-).

Badge Magic is a mixed blessing. Quick and neat, but it eventually fails and , in my experience ALWAYS leaves a residue. Dry clean, goo be gone, WD40, even tried alcohol and kerosene and gasoline (!), always a stain or residue. Big Safety Pins. ALways have some in my kit. When I came back from the National Jamboree, I had a collection of awarded and traded for patches. Took my red jacshirt, arranged patches with pins, took to a tailor, and had them sew'em on. Cost about $90. but much better job than I could do, both wife and mom-in-law said it's yours, you do it... I do handsew some and have nothing good to say about the plastic backing on the BSA patches. Maybe it helps preserve the patch, keep it straight and neat, but I have to tell you, none of the patches from my younger Scouting career are less neat without the plastic. Just as important to me, just as interesting to my Scoutson.

Since you did not ask the forum a question, I will put some to you: * How did you hear of this conversation? * This sounds like classic "bullying", a try at manipulation. How did you react to this report? That is to say, what ,if anything, did you DO? * If it had been me hearing of this, I would wonder about the following: It sounds also a little like jealousy. And insecurity about my decision. If I can't be a Scout (for whatever reason), I have to convince someone else of the same opinion so as to reinforce my own unsure feeling about my own decision. * I am reminded of the coach mentioned in another thread who disparaged Scouting. I do not remember what the Scouter did, how he responded to the coach's comment. * You are obviously "in " Scouting. How do you help the boys remember (realize? Appreciate?) that Scouting IS for losers , and winners, and everyone in between? And if football (or any other sport, by implication) is ONLY for "winners", what about the kids that never really have a chance at the first team? * I do not think, in Scouting, we are about "winning" in the sport sense. We are (should be) about the boy improving, obtaining skills, gaining confidence in his ability to respond to any situation appropriately ("Be Prepared"). Not just in the woods, but in school, in life. In football. * So how does tying a shhepshank, or making a wood tent peg help in this?

We need a Faith & Chaplaincy Forum. It doesn't change things, it just defines it from another perspective. Which is a good thing. I like the sentiment. What's really hard (unfortunate?) is when one party finds agreement in different language (saying the same thing in different ways) and another says "no way does THIS mean the same thing as THAT".

Solipsism. If no one heard the Supreme Court, would it exist? Does the SCotUS have a function if no one agrees that it does? Did Dred Scott have an alternative until 1868? (He was dead by then) Does YOUR "bad decision" mean that MY "good decision" is still "good"?

Brewmaster: Yes, the Pack can award whatever they think the Cub has "earned", but that is the operant word, "earned". By reading the requirements, one sees that the Archery Pin can only be earned at a Council or District sanctioned event, supervised by a BSA certified Range Master (use to be called Range Safety Officer). Therefore, even if it is not defined as such, it is heavily implied that the RM must okay the Cub as having fulfilled the APinrequirements so that the Pack may award it. Here again, the inexact language allows the locals to do it their way, awarding patches and loops and pins as they see fit. But how is that "the Pack helps the Cub Scout grow", if it only makes the Cub happy, and not fulfilled in his recognized skill? Can a Tiger Cub really excel at the skill represented by the pin? See friend Hawkins comments about the Denleader and the Generalissimo Cubs. "That which is too easily acquired is too lightly valued", even at 7 years old.