SSScout

It is often said that boys join (and stay in )Scouts because of the "program". If the Pack/Troop has a good "program", it will attract and keep boys. The "program" is more often described as the outdoors, fun, exciting stuff. Yeah, Cubs get the toned down, less dangerous stuff, but there it is: hiking, camping, canoeing, learning to use sharp pointy things. You go places and do things and learn about things in Scouts that other kids don't have the opportunity to, at least that's the ideal I hear about. So what do we ask them to "pay " for all this pazzazz? I don't mean the money. That's what the PARENTS pay, at least nowaday. I mean what do we ask the BOY to pay? What is the BOY expected to do or pay in exchange? I see the boy being asked to make a promise, or maybe make a series of promises, and then we ask him to KEEP those promises thruout his life. We try to show him that these promises are good things to model a life after, to keep in front of one as an ideal. As Scouters, if we are doing our (highly paid) job, the boy gets an example to follow, some practice at being a citizen in a small community, some practice in being a community leader, some practice in developing projects small and larger, some practice in cooperating with others in accomplishing those projects, and along the way gets some feedback or counseling in how to do it better the next time. He gets a chance to make mistakes and own up to being responsible for those mistakes. Along the way, he builds strength and stamina, does some mildly challeging stuff and has some fun with his buddies. Along the way, he might learn to overcome his fear of the untried and finds out that even if he gets dirty or bruised, he can get clean , pick himself up and be well again. It is the making and keeping of those promises that I see as the price of admission to the show of Scouting. If the boy cannot see the value of his Scout unit's program as equalling or exceeding the effort to keep those promises, he will not stay. Bad language, manipulative behavior, bullying, all argue against keeping those promises. Choosing the football team over Scouts may be in keeping with the promises, depending on the coach's vision, but ultimately the boy must see the promise as being sufficient price to pay for the program offered. The program will not keep him, if he cannot see the worth of keeping the promises. If our efforts in role modeling, in encouraging participation, in reminding the Scout of the promises' meanings, in "being there" are not sufficient to his need, then no matter how fantastic a program there is, the Scout may not stay. On the other hand, if the program is wonderfully challenging and fun, if the Scouts are given full participation and ownership of the program, the promises they make MAY begin to make sense to them and seem like a good thing to remember. But first we REQUIRE that they memorize them. That is the price we require for admission to the program. Is the show worth the price of admission?

In your recruiting, don't forget to mention the perks: No washing, cleaning house, cooking . Watching young men grow and mature. Even your own. Fishing. Boating (off hours). Hiking (if you want). Congenial, like minded adults (alright, in this case, in other campsites). Starry nights (we hope). The comfy cot you borrowed from the other ASM. Campfires , corny skits (go on, you know you'll laugh), songs and cheers. Whippoorwills (depending). Owls (Maybe) Forget the boss for awhile. At the last camp I attended (as an adult!), they even issued a letter on my behalf to my boss(es), extolling my virtues as a community minded person, giving of my time for the betterment of our future leaders and citizens (etc. etc.) and thanking them for allowing the time off from work. Signed by the SE! Nice touch. Do the same for yours.

Oldscout, did you receive my hyperlink PM?

Camp Hale? Nah... Camp Granada....

What is the topic? Unfortunately, the online version has no page numbers.... http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/toc.aspx

"Flaming Arrows" Yep, way back when....Took my Ordeal at Rooz. Looooong knotted rope to hold on to... Stations for the ceremony...

Scoutson joined Troop, went to Summer Camp. Twice. A couple of weekend o/ns. Next, Philmont. Seabase (sleeping on a boat. Could that count?) . Couldn't schedule Northern Tier. Our Yearly Meeting sponsors a summer camp program with highly trained and experienced counselors. 2, 3, or 4 week sessions. Middle School age and younger. Each week has three nights in camp, two nights on the trail, either hiking, canoe/raft. Older teens can opt for a Teen Adventure traveling camp of two weeks, either canoe/backpack or bicycling (200 miles!). Scoutson has done both Teen Adventure camps, and reported that only Philmont approached the physical challenge and personal responsibility inherent in the trips. But he couldn't count any of that for his Camping MB, or 5o Miler, or (?)...

Way back when... Scout had to earn the ranks in order. Earn and be awarded TF, then SC, then FC. And there were time limits between , as I remember, one had to wait three monthe between TF to SC, and three months to FC. AND THEN Scout could work on /earn MBs. I think a case can be made for some of our troubles having started with the idea that Scout can fulfill ANY requirement as soon as he can. Hence my comment about the FAMB being equivalent to the FA requirements for TF,SC,and FC, automatically. In one fell swoop, the boy has fulfilled parts of TF,SC,FC,Star, (and by implication, remember, it is all cumulative) Life and Eagle. If the skill is learned, the knowledge attained, it is checked off for ever and ever, amen. It cannot be questioned again. If the Scout Leaders encourage the EFFICIENT passing of rank requirements, heck, no reason a Scout can't "earn" Eagle by age 14, easy, even without his wanting to. If the Troop sets as a GOAL rank advancement, it will happen. If the Troop sets as a goal SCOUTING (see any number of other threads), the advancement will happen, whether you want it to or not. So maybe the answer (what was the question again?) is the Troop does "games with a purpose": the games being camping, hiking, living out in nature (even for a mere weekend) , the purpose in this case being the retaining of the skills. Knots, lashings, first aid, cooking, fire building and safety, alot of these things are also cumulative and need cooperative activity among/between the Patrols. And along the way, the boy learns about setting goals , working cooperatively, the value of loyalty and being trustworthy. M'lord Beavah, what say you , the title of that spun thread I should begin? (This message has been edited by SSScout)

M'Lords, I do apologize for the multiple posts. I prithee accept that if the Scout has thus passed the First Aid MB and thus the 2nd and 1st (and by right TF! as so noted by my learned collegue), the Scout has jumped that far ahead of his advancement trail. Let us now consider how this Scout can jump ahead still further. I put to you a "nature" merit badge class, so construed as to fulfill the appropriate sections of the 2nd and 1st class badges. And thus too, a "Cooking" MB that leads on to the selfsame requirements in the two ranks. So I have seen a Troop in my pervue thus advance multiple newbie Scouts to First class in less than a year. Spring CoH, the Scout receives Second class, First Class AND a half dozen MBs. Troop does do alot of camping... At the other end of the spectrum, I knew a very active and supportive Scout (served as a very good SPL) who just couldn't get his last two requirements (recruiting? Nature ID?) from FC. At age 16, he was awarded FC, AND Star at the CoH. Never made Eagle, but had a ball in Socuting. Staffed at Heritage four years that I know of.

Just asked Scoutson what he might like for earning/receiving Eagle (CoH next month). He said "Just to happy". I think the letter idea and SM trinket is appropriate, but it should not be "expected" necessarily.And not publicly presented, but privately. Hey, how 'bout a 4wheel drive F150, bright red?

Ye Lordships, I put it to you a Scout who earns and is awarded his "Scout" Badge. And then I say this Scout joins the semi annual First Aid Merit Badge class held by the ScoutMaster. I put it to you this Scout attends 6 or so after Troop meeting classes and thru dint of effort is awarded his First Aid Merit Badge at a duly convened Court of Honor. Now, I put it to you for consideration: Has this Scout thus concurrently passed the first aid requirements, ipso facto, for the both the Second Class and First Class ranks? And thus should have those requirements signed off in his Book? What say ye,?

Ye Lordships, I put it to you a Scout who earns and is awarded his "Scout" Badge. And then I say this Scout joins the semi annual First Aid Merit Badge class held by the ScoutMaster. I put it to you this Scout attends 6 or so after Troop meeting classes and thru dint of effort is awarded his First Aid Merit Badge at a duly convened Court of Honor. Now, I put it to you for consideration: Has this Scout thus concurrently passed the first aid requirements, ipso facto, for the both the Second Class and First Class ranks? And thus should have those requirements signed off in his Book? What say ye,?

Anyone out there in Scouterland have any memories of Camp Roosevelt? Down near Cheasapeake Beach? Lusby? Calvert Cliffs? Sharks teeth? Sea Nettles?

The requirements for Eagle rank have changed over the years. The requirements that I fulfilled are not the same as those that Scoutson fulfilled. (he will be awarded the Eagle at the CoH next month). On face, the requirements are still daunting, but they are , afterall, cumulative. If the Eagle candidate seems lacking when he is at the point of final application for the rank, it is not for the final "sign off-ers" to look back and say, hey, this or that is not up to OUR standards. Can you tie a square knot NOW? Well, that's not relevant. He tied it THEN. If the candidate passed SOMEONE'S standard, back then, then he cannot be held to task now. Yes, it is ultimately up to the candidate to make sure he has all his i's dotted and t's crossed, but it is not up to him to say HOW or WHETHER they are crossed and dotted. Do the Adult Scout Leaders have a say in this process? Of course. They should keep track of who is and who is not active, who is "showing up", who is available and interested to help. They should encourage the PLC and SPL to hold practice and competitions to keep your Scout Skills sharp. Encouraging the Scouts to be ACTIVE on the trails, so to speak. Go places and do things. But the ASLs can not look back and say, "hey, you were not active by our definition" when the Scout HAS been active by BSA's definition. They cannot ask, "prove that you can identify the local trees, like your Forestry Merit Badge says you can". Been there, he's done that. Not relevant now. In some ways, Scoutson's Eagle was tougher than mine. I had to prove service to my community and Scouting. Scoutson had to find, plan, execute to their satisfaction a work project to benefit a non-profit community organization. Merit Badges? Yep, we both racked up sufficient number. His included some I never had to face. Personal Management? Never heard of it. Troop Leadership? We both had fun being PLs and other things. JASM and Bugler counted for mine. No JASMs in his Troop. ("What's that?") So times change. Maybe for the better, maybe it doesn't matter. Explaining to Scoutson what an ignition point is might be illustrative. He and I connect with automotive things. He grasps the theory of electromagnetism and sparkplugs, but no modern car has "points" . The magneto on our lawn tractor is different, and the Hall Effect module on our old Dodge van is another. Scoutson complains "dad, it's not fair. You didn't have to learn as much history as I do". He's right. But if he learns about points and magnetos and Hall Effects and why diesels don't have any of those things, he will be that much further ahead of the game. It is ultimately up to us ASL to be true to our calling and make sure the boy meets the requirements THEN (if he wants to), not later. If the boy met the requirements, doesn't matter when (before 18!) only if. It is too late to say "hey , you should've been doing this a year ago" when the boy thought he had been doing it. We should have been saying "hey, a year from now, you might not want to look back and think I shoulda been doing this". YiS. (This message has been edited by SSScout)

"Age issues". There you go. It is not so much Webelos 1 or Webelos 2. Those appelations are for the adults more than for the boys. They are not (as has been mentioned) official BSA nominclature. If a boy gets the Scout bug and joins at age 10, in late fourth grade (doesn't have to be in September!), depending on his Webelos Den Leader and his parents support and his gumption, he can easily earn the AoL and move on to Boy Scouting in less than a year's time. AND... There is nothing a first year Webelos can't do that a second year Webelos wouldn't want to do. It all depends on the "comfort level" of the Den Leader. Can they earn any and all the pins? Absolutely, no restriction. Can they both go Web Den camping? Absolutely, follow the guidelines. Can they each be invited to accompany a Scout Troop to a Webelos Weekend? Go for it. It all boils down to the competance and comfort level of the Den Leader. If he/she wants the boys to go out and get dirty, they will. If the pin earning is moving along (class in Boyle's law? Scientist! Run and do sit ups? Fitness!), they will use that opportunity. In Webelos, it is no longer ONLY up to the parent and Cub. It MUST be up to the Den Leader. If the Den Leader is not comfortable in hike leading, hey, find a Assistant DL to help! We go from a Scout program that is Parent orriented ("here Stanislaus, let me help you have fun"), to adult oriented ("Here's how you tie that knot. Now you do it"), to Boy oriented ("Mr. Olafsky? Is this Poison Ivy?"), to Boy Led ("Hey guys, we have to plan this trail trek. Bill, will you be Grubmaster?"). So where do the W1s and the W2s stand?

SMT224: You done good, but could do better. I see no "cruelty" in the ice cream at the following meeting. Everybody has covered all those bases. But here's how I might have doe it: 1) Announce the M&C course, the reward for completion ahead of the campout. 2) Do the ice cream on the trip home. Must be some restaurant or 7-11 on the way with the ice cream available. 3) Did they earn the Orienteering MB? Make it so. Award at next CoH. 4) OR... present a special woggle or patch or cheapy compass dangle at next meeting. We went on a canoe trip. It should have been a simple, 12 mile flat water with some ripples day trip. Turned into a 16 mile trudge that didn't come out until after dark. It deserved and we created a special dangle for those that went and "survived". Stopped for dindin ont he way home, too. I agre the complaining MC needs to understand why the ice cream. If they had been given a special patch, I doubt there would have been a problem. I think HE wanted the ice cream!

Question: Is the "Troop Guide" the same as the "Instructor"? In my experience, the T/G is a specialist, an instructor in Totin'Chip, Whittlin' Chip for Cubs, Fireman Chit, LNT, Knots and Lashing and ropes, Nature, etc. He would be a "more senior" Scout, and preferably really involved in being SKILLED in his specialty, not just for the patch, but for the fun of being really good at something, the "Go To Guy" for that stuff.

"Scope creep": (slang)N.Phr. A person who uses mouthwash for many other purposes, ie: fire starting, dish disenfectant, foot cleansing, tire sidewall scrub, etc.

Braces. Dark Green. Walmart.

Take your small, 2 AA light. Cut a length of cord, maybe 4 feet long, tie knot to make a loop. Duct tape your light to the loop. Keep it around your neck, able to use both hands, see your feet, find stuff, not have to fumble in pocket, never lose light at campfire, amaze your friends.....

Off point slightly, but here goes.... I once visited a Mexican restaurant that went like this: You paid a fee, entered a cafeteria line, loaded up on chalupas, frijoles, enchiladas, etc. and went to your table. When you wanted seconds, you raised the Mexican flag on a little pole (2 feet tall, little rope, guide eyes, ) in the middle of your table. Waiter came and took your drink order or other desire, put the flag down, and walked off to fetch your desire.

I have reread back some and I notice that the discussion seems to revolve around the specific act, the "prank" or "joke". Whether it was physically harmful, or demeaning or dangerous. I think what is missing here is the INTENT, both the prank initiater's (prankOR ?) reason for doing it and the victim's (prankEE ?) perception of why he was singled out for this "learning experience". If the prankor(s) make it clear that the prankee is now part of the crew and hey, we love ya, ya big dummy, then less harm done. If, however, the prankee perceives that he was the center of a mean spirited entertainment, accomplished purely for the laffs of the prankor, then what has been accomplished? Less loyalty, more resentment, a desire for revenge, lesson learned NOT to trust those blankety blanks? This is Scouting? There was a concept in psychology popular a few years back called "Cognitive Dissonance". In this, if a person is required to go thru such ugly, embarassing activity, that he must convince himself that the organization he wishes to join MUST REALLY be worth it, regardless of any other values inherent there-in. The fraternity might be in a decrepit house, inhabited by dangerous miscreants, but the initiation I just went thru makes it necessary to REALLY feel that Alpha Omigosh HAS to be the absolute BEST house on campus. Is that what we want a young TFoot to go thru? What is our intent? What do we want our young Scouts to feel IS our intent in wanting them to do certain things?

"Dark Suckers", Ah that brings back memories... Scoutson becomes of that age. We take him out to puchase camp gear, tell him he has met the Troop, gone Cub camping, gone camping with church group. Gone camping with mom and dad. He knows what he wants/needs. We tell him we will HELP him buy anything he wants, within reason. He picks out a 5 D cell Maglite. I talk him down to a 3 D cell Maglite. He takes it on the AT with the Troop ONCE. Next trip out, he borrows one of dad's 2 AA cell mini lights. Next trip, he borrows one of dad's headlamps (three AAAcells). likes that best. Now the Maglite is dad's when he drives charter bus.

Pack and Beav: There are three distinctions here: I see the difference in the idea that in one instance (poker, Risk, other games of chance and skill) the players are there VOLUNTARILY, with foreknowledge and expectations that ALL involved are playing by the same rules (and expectations). In the second instance (rope stretcher, Snipe hunt, smoke shifter, etc.) one scout (the "victim"?) has no foreknowledge, does not know that he is/will be the object of scorn and derision in being so DUMB as to fall for the setup. In the third instance (tent up a tree, short sheet, snakes in tent) the victim also has no foreknowledge, but can be appreciative of the "trick" , if he is a certain type of person. I haven't quite decided what that type is, but I know there is one. Maybe the difference would be between the old crusty Scoutmaster and the newby Tenderfoot. There is a difference nowadays . Some years ago, a fraternity would not think twice about putting their pldges thru all kinds of "pranks". Now, it is more often seen as childish and not worthy of an organization that prides itself on service to others, brotherhood and loyalty, academic excellence and , wow, even ecologic right thinking. ? Mmmm, now where have I heard that description before? Such actions of the second type (now called "getting punked" ) might even be seen as a type of bullying. Putting the youngest Scout in his place. Make him know who's the boss. Make sure he knows how little he is appreciated, that there is very little he can do to "measure up". I would not place Allen Funt's classic show "Candid Camera" in either of the above classes. These are (were) stunts calculated to demonstrate the foibles of modern America. Closing New Jersey. Talk to the mailbox. Carry my puppy. These MIGHT be under the third class, but not the second. I'd love to see reruns of those. The modern "Punked" shows are grotesque tries at the master's example. The only "prank" I favor is the "Ugliest Man in the World" skit. But the it is best done with the knowledge of the victim, to avoid future problems.

**Why did my screen suddenly go wiiiiide?** My aha* moment was when I visited Salt Lake City and had dinner at the " Carlos' Ratzkeller Pizzeria"