SR540Beaver

Liz said, "some of our patrols have a tendency to choose menus based primarily on which one will require the least amount of clean-up". Remember Liz, a scout is thrifty!

Two drops of Camp Suds will do the trick while backpacking.

BadenP: "No more attacks or insults just a spirited exchange of ideas" Bob White: "I have nothing more to add on this topic" Great! Wonderful! Stupendous! We now have it on record. The feud is over. You and a few others here are damned lucky that I am not a moderator, because I wouldn't tolerate the childishness as long as these fine moderators have. I am a HUGE proponent of free speech, but posting here is a privilege and NOT a right. The oath and law should be sufficient in most cases excpet where those individuals refuse to follow them. Being kind and friendly never cost anyone anything. Be it! Live it! I will now climb down from my soapbox.

Lisa, A wise council would be well on their way to organizing and promoting Jambo. Sadly, my council is in the same boat as yours. I was selected as a leader for 05. Back then, our cost was 1900. We had 4 troops and had to give 1 up because we couldn't fill it......and we worked our tails off recruiting. This time the estimated cost is 3000. I'm wondering if we can fill 3 troops.....especially since council is dragging their feet getting up and running. Kudos to those who have selected leaders. Our application cutoff was a week ago with interviews and selections still to occur. That means promotion and recruiting is still a ways off. Last time we did monthly payments of 100 for 18 months. As it stands now, I hope that those wanting to go are socking cash back for when council finally gets their act together. Who knows why some don't think ahead.

Baloney! What keeps lawyers in clover is splitting hairs and parsing words that the average common Joe uses plain common sense to understand. Sure, BSA professionals have workplace rules and regulations just like any other employee in any other job. To suggest that the BSA rules about sleeping arrangments at scout events somehow doesn't apply to a professional scouter is......baloney. You can try to justify your client's actions counselor, but most judges are not buying it. Just because the 14 year old girl looked 18 doesn't cut it. Just because you thought the spped limit was 70 instead of 40 doesn't cut it. Let me ask you a question Beavah. You are on an outing with a Boy Scout troop and one of the dad's pulls out a can of beer to drink with his dinner. Or an adult sits around telling dirty jokes and using foul language. What are YOU going to do? Just say different strokes for different folks? Just look the other way and act like nothing happened? I mean after all, the persons in question are grown men responsible for themselves and you have no right or obligation to say or do anything. Is that what you are saying? Is there nothing anyone can do that you wouldn't have a friendly word with them to set them on the right path?

Pack, you are an odd fellow.

BadenP, With all due respect, could you attempt to show a little more tact and decorum in your exchanges? Your behavior is extremely unscoutlike.

No. My SPL son of a boy led troop just staffed NYLT this summer and loved it. Different strokes I guess.

Adams, welcome to the forum and thanks for the additional insights. Like I said earlier, this isn't rocket science. One of the points I have made on these forums over the years is this, Scouting didn't choose me, I chose it. When I joined, I joined with my own personal expectation of abiding by the policies and procedures of the organization. Why would I have joined if I didn't agree? I'm a Baptist. If I move churches, I'm not going to move to a Catholic church. It isn't a good fit for me. If I did join a Catholic church and decided to "act" like a Baptist and change the Catholic church to my liking, I'd be wrong. Same with Scouting. On my honor. Trustworthy. Loyal. As a Scouter, I am not free to do as I please within the confines of Scouting. I am honorbound to follow the program. Why would I be here otherwise.

OK, time for a reality check on asking marital status. I'm an ASM in a Troop with around 60 boys on the roster. I know the marital status of each and everyone of them and I've never asked a single one what their status is. When a boy registers, it is pretty apparent from the contact information submitted whether his parents are married or divorced. Since we use Mr and Mrs in our Troop, it is pretty obvious if Mr Brown and Mrs Green bring Timmy Green on campouts that Brown and Green are not married. Yes, she could be a professional who kept her maiden name, but her son would most likely be Brown instead of Green. This ain't rocket science folks. While there are some folks who drop their kids off and never darken the door, we still have some clue about their family life if we are doing our jobs of working with their kids.

GW, why do you question Ventura's being a Navy SEAL?

No, there should not be a gatekeeper at camp asking questions. That is because the gatekeeping should be happening back at the unit level for scouters or council level for professionals. My son and I were part of a troop for about 6 months when he first crossed over. We left for a number of reasons, most of all the troop being very dysfunctional. But one of the reasons was also two committee members who were living together and always shared a tent on campouts. They also serve each year at summer camp as commissioners and shack up together there. That is the council's issue to resolve. While I understand and appreciate that they love one another, they are forcing their views on children against the wishes of their parents. Look, the world is a bad enough place these days with all the attempts by the media to sexualize children earlier and earlier. I can turn off my TV and tell my son NO to certain movies. I can even limit where he can go on the internet. When he goes to a Boy Scout camp, I expect the adult leadership there to follow any rules of the BSA. They are put in place for a purpose. They are not optional. I'm serving on Wood Badge staff and am inbetween weekends. Our course director's husband is serving on support staff. We have two other couples serving on support staff. Even though it is perfectly fine for them to stay together at camp, none of them do. Even though no boys are present, they take "modeling" behavior serious enough to practice it even when kids are not present. You can't fault them for that.

E, Your points are valid and well taken. Our council had a committee that interviewed contingent prospects. At least one person was a doctor. Being an insulin dependent diabetic who is rounder than I should be and with high blood pressure, I got a lot of questions thrown at me. My conditions were under very good control. Also, having been around for a while and being seen in action helped in getting selected. I agree that old timers who have been around forever or people in poor health should not be selected out of a good old boy network. My council treats Jambo like Wood Badge by mixing leaders who have been to Jambo before with leaders who have not been. What they avoid is taking someone who has been an ASM or committee member for a very short time and making them a contingent troop SM. Experience counts. That was my point.

No offense, but one does not gain experience by serving as leadership at a Jambo. Experienced leaders get selected as leadership for Jambo. Jambo is a large undertaking that requires leaders who alreay have a good deal of experience leading their troop back home. To put an inexperienced leader in a Jambo leader position would be doing a disservice to him. While there are certainly rules and guidelines for selecting staff, each council puts their own spin on it. I'm surprised if any council wouldn't entertain someones request to serve on staff. You then have to be "hired" by Jambo folks. As far as the newer physical requirements, that is BSA treating a symptom rather than a root cause. You are living in a city (tent) at Jambo and not carrying a backpack up a mountian in high elevation. The health issues at the last Jambo had more to do with BSA going full speed ahead against the wishes of the base medical staff than it had to do with the condition of the participants. If the military suspends all activities to sit in the shade and drink water, how smart is it to march 40,000 people on blacktop on a black flag day?

From the current years plannimg, pioneering, climb/rappeling, float trip, mountain biking, wilderness survival, cooking, cold weather camping, fishing, hiking, camporee, webelos woods, staffing cub day camp. Those are what I can remember without a calendar in front of me. We also do a troop annual high adventure trip to Philmont or Northern Tier or one we make up.

I think calling it "secret" is a stretch. Asking participants not to share too much about the lesson the game teaches isn't asking too much. It has far more impact if everyone gets to participate fully instead of knowing what will happen beforehand. In the courses I've been involved with, a request is made that any participants who know the game sit back and let it unfold naturally. Another request is that for those who see it for the first time, they not give it away to future participants. It has nothing to do with secrecy and everything to do with respecting the experience.

Kittle, I have to agree with the others. There are at least 5 troops within 4 miles of our home and we joined a troop across town which is a 20+ mile trip one way. My son liked their program the best.

Loud Snoring Bear, Personally, I draw the line at a paid position vs a program specific volunteer position. Staffing at camp is paid. Staffing NYLT is supposed to be Boy Scout youth teaching other Boy Scout youth about Boy Scout troop and patrol leadership. They model what they teach. Nothing against girls....I like them as much as the next guy.......but having non-members staff NYLT is wrong.

John, Our council has 30,000 registered youth in 24 counties, so qualified boys could have been recruited. I'm not laying blame at the NYLT SM'S feet for enlisting the aid of the girls. I think it was a case of wearing too many hats. This same lady had been the SM for the spring WB course and camp director for cub resident camp before being NYLT SM a couple of weeks later. She went with a known quantity of camp staffers she had spent the past 6 weeks with and had worked with in previous summers at camp. In her shoes, I might have done the same thing. Staff development was done on the fly a day or two before the course began. I'd like to see the council run NYLT with the same committment they have to WB. Eagledad (Barry) used to run NYLT and I know his was much more organized and prepared.

My 15 year old son staffed cub resident camp this summer and had a blast. There were about 6 girls aged 16 to 18 on staff. I believe most of them had staffed for at least the last couple of years. There is only one staff cabin area with a common shower facility. They have a camp director who runs a tight ship and will fire any staffer who wants to engage in any unscoutlike behavior. There were no issues this summer. I came in for one unusually heavy session where additional help was needed and worked in the dining hall. I was highly impressed with each girl on staff and the relationship of all staffers regardless of gender. Where I did have an issue was the NYLT course held a week or two after cub resident camp. The staff was largely made up of staffers from cub resident camp. Three of the girls were "staffing" the dining hall for NYLT. When my son got home, he informed me that the girls did course presentations along with him and the other guys. All of these girls belong to active crews, but NYLT is BOY SCOUTS. I don't have an issue with girls staffing summer camp, but I do draw the line atStaffing NYLT.

Mike, While that sounds like a good idea, you make an assumption that all Eagle Scouts are skilled in the wilderness. Sadly, that isn't always the case. While I think my 15 year old Life Scout son who has been an APL, PL, ASPL and SPL and has backpacked Philmont and canoed Northern Tier as well as other high adventure trips would fare well, I know others who wouldn't. Another Life Scout in our troop is 16, will only seek the Librarian position and only camps if his dad is going probably wouldn't last a day. Both are close to Eagle. Depends on the Eagles you sent to Alaska.

twocub, All good suggestions. Our troop has a planning document I can send you if you PM me your email address. Our PL's poll there patrol members each year prior to the annual planning meeting to see where they want to camp and what kind of program they want to do. They then set down on a Saturday to come up with the annual schedule. Actually, any boy is welcome to come and have input and vote. Once they have their plan, boys volunteer to be the planner for the outing. Younger boys who have never planned an outing volunteer to work with the boy planner so they can learn the ropes. An adult volunteers to mentor the boy planners. The adult only guides or assists where needed like if a credit card is needed to secure a reservation. They will usually just ask the planner how things are going and if they need help or advice when they see each other at a meeting. Often, the adult has little to nothing to do. The boy reports to the PLC what progress he has made in his planning as his outings gets closer. We have operated with this method for years and it works for us.

I do know that our scout camp does have staff as a crew. On the other hand, our cub resident staff does not. They must all be registered in a unit back home, but they are not a crew. The girls who serve on staff are in crews back home. they have a staff uniform that consists of the scout uniform except the shirt is replaced with a red polo staff shirt. Making staff into a crew is more about inflating venturing numbers than anything else. Councils do inflate these numbers. Go to www.scouting.org/venturing/venturinglocator.aspx and plug in your zip code to see the "crews" registered in your area. Ever heard of 80% of these crews? Probably not. At least that is true in my council where some organizations are listed twice, every JROTC is listed and even the county juvenile detention center is listed. I'm involved enough in my council to know these are paper units with people registered who are totally unaware.

Dan, Talk radio is like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. Last I checked, radio is free.....so there you go. Most of those guys are egotistical, self centered individuals who like to hear themselves talk and think they have the answers to everything. Heck, they will even tell you how to vote. Their "valued" opinion and 10 cents won't even buy you a cup of coffee. Keep in mind that what makes them money is ratings and they will stoop to all sorts of lows to get ratings.

I was glad to see his comments on the method of adult association and its value in teaching character by example. One of the aims of scouting is character development and some of the methods are ideals, adult association, personal growth and leadership development. I don't believe any aim or method is more important than another, that all are equal and work together to achieve an end result of citizens of good character. Uniformed boys in the outdoors grouped into patrols are the methods used to enable the lessons of character. While teaching boys the skills needed to care for themselves and their patrol mates and to be able to make wise decisions independent of adults is vastly important to the whole process, it isn't the whole process or purpose. The behaviors you want them to develop must be modeled by the adults in the program for everything to come together. It is like a puzzle and all pieces must be present to see the total picture.