SeattlePioneer

> Generally speaking, BSA doesn't attempt to explain or justify it's rules in my experience. I would presume most of them are there because it's deemed good policy and wise decision making in a general sense. But perhaps it makes good sense to have CITs or those under 18 years of age teaching Merit Badge classes at Scout Camp. I would suppose that can be done well or poorly.

> 14 year old CITs are effectively Merit Badge Counselors in many Scout Camps. And I'm talking about CITs that don't know the skills they are teaching. > Election? What election? In my experience district elections (if they are held at all) are ritual exercises that merely ratify the decisions of existing leaders.

> Yes, exactly. Rules are for the guidance of a commander in carrying out his command and orders. But they may need to be set aside from time to time in order to carry out your orders and goals. It requires good judgement, something pretty generally emphasized when appointing leaders in Scouting. If it merely required the ability to read and follow rules, judgement wouldn't be necessary.

Hello Johnponz, You really don't know why such a rule has been adopted, or the extent to which it is intended to be construed as advice or whatever. Every Scouting position has a lengthy list of responsibilities, more than anyone can do. For myself I've decided that I will pick and choose from among that list the things I am either good at doing, that particularly need to be done or that I would like to do. In short I think such rules need judgment in how and when they are applied. I noticed than in our recent thread on applying Youth Protection rules, there were a number of people earnestly supporting the idea of not reporting YPT rule violations by reporting them to police, despite the clearest intentions that such reporting be done. It's easy as pie for some BSA committee to write stringent rules that may make no sense when you are confronted with a real situation. Keep in mind that those committees aren't God and they aren't writing the Bible. Of course you are entitled to follow such rules rigorously if they make sense to you. I hope you will discuss in more detail how that works for you and your district. One thing you didn't mention is the hardship on family life that can occur from placing unreasonable burdens on Scouters. At the extreme, it results in the divorces caused by Scouting being discussed on another thread. I have a Cubmaster who is being unreasonably burdened right now because of demands by his job, and my intention is to find an ACM to help him so that he's not driven nuts by demands on his time. Personally I think looking at the reality that confronts different people is a better way to deal with this issue than a one size fits all rule. Scouting literature also emphasizes that people picked for any position should be the best person to fill the job --- a person well qualified and able to carry out every aspect of that lengthy list of position responsibilities. If I ever encountered such a person, perhaps they WOULD be able to do every aspect of those position responsibilities, and that would probably be plenty for one person to do. But that's not the way positions are filled in my experience. When my DE proposed I be district membership chair in 2004, my response was "ABSOLUTELY NOT! You would be RUINING MY LIFE" if I took that position! Yet I found my name listed as the district membership chair a few months later at the district recognition banquet. I've tried to do my best ever since, despite my limitations. In my experience, Scouting is full of compromises. We have high ideals, and then we try to make them work in the real world. We inevitably fall short of the ideal --- at least that's my experience. But, perhaps your district doesn't fall short, and perhaps you wont fall short as District Commissioner.

The Washington State Jamboree is going on now --- "Washjam." A report at the district meeting was that a Japanese Scout unit was going to be there primarily because they can qualify for BSA and NRA shooting sports awards. Apparently such awards aren't available in Japan at all ---- didn't realize the country was so badly infested with liberals and Democrats!

> Sorry John, but you need a better argument than that. Personally I'm not aware that the Field Book of Commissioner Science is authoritative on this issue. Perhaps it's a nice goal for districts to have. If I hadn't stepped in to be Cubmaster of a pack down to a single boy, the pack would have failed years ago now. Instead, it's reasonably healthy. If I hadn't stepped in to be Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, that program would have failed since there was no one else to do it. After two years I found a capable person to take over from me. If my council and district doesn't want me to fill multiple positions ---- fine. But a comment in the Field Book of Commissioner Science isn't going to do it --- nosiree. And frankly, I'm not too impressed by those using such quotations for frivolous purposes, either. If you want to file a complaint with my Council Scout Executive over this issue you can PM me and I'll provide you with my name and council.

> The idea that a capable person can't do more than one job is, of course, just plain wrong. Before the first of this year I was * Cubmaster * District Membership Chair * Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner * Unit Commissioner Since then, I've found someone to replace me as Cubmaster and Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, but I'm now the Pack Treasurer. I've also added a Scout Troop to the Cub Pack for which I'm UC. As a retiree, I have more time to devote to Scouting than most people. More pointless Scout rules.

No loss. We'll be repeating it again in a matter of days. Pretty amusing end for that thread, though!

Hello Nike, Actually, I would suppose that a council's office management problem WILL be your problems too.

Conflicts could be an issue, and appearances of conflict could be an issue. I've been Cubmaster and District Membership Chair, and had leads for new Cub Scouts funneled to me to act upon and refer. I could have cherry picked those for my unit, but I didn't. And units neighboring mine got not only more of those leads than my unit did, but lots of help organizing their unit recruiting nights and such. They were getting enough leads and help from me that I don't think anyone would believe I was short changing those units. But it's certainly easy for people to develop those kinds of suspicions, even if they aren't true.

Hello Abel, Sorry, but I don't have such a report.

Hello Hawkins,

Frankly, I know very little about this program. Does it suck money, time and attention away from traditional Scouting or does it add resources to traditional Scouting? Does it serve a useful Scouting purpose or would it be better to abandon this program? I'm not talking about Exploring here, which is recognizable as having a Scouting purpose and use something like Scouting methods.

Ummm. It's disappointing for me to read Eagle 92 list of complaints. I really don't have ANY of them when I'm rechartering. Once again I discover that I am blessed with a council that is effective and well organized. I listed my complaints in an earlier post on this thread, but those are problems mostly imposed for reasons by the council or BSA, not because they are careless or inefficient. Unfortunately, that probably means that Eagle 92's council really is screwed up and doing a poor job, since other councils don't have those kinds of issues.

Hello Basement, I would presume that a Scout Executive needs to be a lot more than a "program guy." He's got a large and complicated organization to run, and concentrating on one set of problems like program is a waste of time if it means neglecting other problems A Scout Executive needs to identify the various issues and problems a council faces, and to come up with ways to deal with those varying problems. Perhaps you aren't seeing noticeable program improvements because there are other problems that need to be settled. I find that I have several opportunities to address questions to my SE during the course of the year, and get replies. As an example, at our University of Scouting one course period people can sign up with is a meeting with the Scout Executive and the Council President, and usually a dozen or more volunteers elect to fire questions at these council leaders and get replies, if not answers. Fairly often before or after council volunteer activities the council executive makes herself available for questions. You might want to look for that kind of opportunity to ask "what about the program emphasis you talked about?"

Hello Walnut, Sorry, I don't think much of the rules you've identified for Unit Commissioners. The position of UC is far too fluid to impose a lot of rules on what someone does when they do unit visits or identify problems, in my opinion and experience. I see three basic conditions units may be in: 1) The unit is doing OK. No real action needed. 2) The unit is doing pretty well but has some issues that need attention (recruiting would be an example. Finding new adult leaders another common one) Chatting with the unit leaders and Committee members ought to be enough to start dealing with those. 3) The unit has major issues that are being neglected and no one is dealing with them. This is the toughest situation for a UC to deal with, and the most important. Whether the UC is in uniform or what color tabs he wears isn't especially relevant to dealing with these situations.

Heh, heh! For openers, "change of command" may not be the best way to characterize this transition...

Thirty years ago when I was Scoutmaster, the troop tradition was for OA members to wear their sash at Courts of Honor. I think that was a good tradition. However, perhaps it doesn't meet a strict reading of OA rules. If not, then perhaps OA members who undertook some task at the COH might be encouraged to wear their sash ---- manning the sign in table to welcome those who are arriving, for example.

Hello JM, > I use yard signs in Cub Scout Campaigns where they are marginally effective. I would use them in Boy Scout recruiting campaigns, where the appeal needs to be on a personal invitation to boys to visit a troop, in my experience. My council has Boy Scout targeted flyers which I use, adding an invitation to visit a Scout troop. I like your assessment of the goals of the Cub Scout, Boy Scout and Venturing programs based on youth maturity.

It was Scouter network with the multiple posts in the mess hall...

Hello Fehler, I'm hoping that this is the biggest issue your pack has to deal with!

I'm usually pleasantly surprised by the reasoned arguments people make and the minimal amount of hate visible on these boards. People are typically pretty decent to each other in my experience.

In general is it worthwhile to ask about camping on military bases? To whom should such an inquiry be directed? Our Scout troop received an interesting tour of the Manchester, Washington naval fueling depot several years ago and that included an invitation using the facilities on the base. That invitation was withdrawn a few days before our visit when some other outfit had priority, which was inconvenient. In that case, a Scout district chair was part of the base leadership.

> I'm sure NAMBLA would say exactly the same thing. Imagine the idea of people being locked up and beaten up because of their NATURAL sexual impulses! The basic motivation of the sexual liberation movement is "If it feels good, do it." The basic motivation of traditional natural law regarding sexuality is using ones sexual parts for their intended purposes, which contemplates the reproduction of children. I understand that this distinction has been lost after being the norm in western civilization for nearly 2000 years.

Yes, I would compare the issue to those subject to the draft during the Vietnam War. Those who chose to burn their draft cards made a showy but empty gesture. Those that chose to go to prison, or even leave for Canada to avoid being drafted were making a pretty profound moral statement. They were being counted. In the same way, a person returning Scouting awards to BSA to protest the gay issue should be respected for taking a moral position and should be treated as a serious person, in my view. Expunging their record of membership in an organization they no longer wish to be associated with is a way to treat them decently and honestly, in my opinion.