SeattlePioneer

Hello packsaddle, > I simply proposed a thought experiment in which Bandos willfulness in acting out inappropriately would be returned in kind. He didn't like it when the kind of thing I suggested was imposed on him as a thought experiment. I'm not surprised. > That's what Bando said in his opening post describing his actions, although he wants to mute the abrasiveness of what he did in later posts. He still thinks his bad behavior was justified. Of course that's common among those convinced that they are morally righteous. It is used to justify a lot of bad behavior.

Nice!

Hello Nike,

Hello second class:

Well, it sounds like a good use of the ideals and patrol spirit, but I'd be surprised if you get that much mileage out of a piece of kindling. I can hope I'm wrong, though. I hope you'll report back on how it works.

Hello jblake, > >>

I've been working for several years to make our Webelos program a much better transition into Boy Scouts. So far that has met with meager results, although we did have one second year Webelos do a hike to a mountain lake with the nearby troop July 14th. Unfortunately, not much interest by the troop in taking more of an interest in the Webelos den and not much interest by the Webelos den leader in being more a part of the troop. Neither party is really motivated to do what needs to be done. We have five second year Webelos. A good program with the troop might result in all five transitioning into the troop. Without that --- one will likely transition to the troop where his brother is a Scout. Whether more will do so I don't know. Frankly I consider that a crying shame.

Hello Wingnut, I have heard frequent complaints of hostility towards men from Girl Scouts. They seem to be inclusive towards lesbians but not fathers, and not towards other men. That's not the program that would fit in with my Cub Pack, which is part of my interest in American Heritage Girls, which doesn't seem to have that as an issue. I'll note in passing that I'm really not interested in railing against GSUSA not being "inclusive" with respect to men. Girl Scout is welcome to persevere with it's program. I would simply look for another program that meets the needs and interests of my Cub Pack and use that as a program for girls. American Heritage Girls sounds like it would be a good match.

Remember what you posted Bando: > I simply pointed out how other people could duplicate your willfulness, but that clearly doesn't appeal to you. For how many people did you spoil the ceremony? Quite a few apparently, but you didn't care.

> >>

Hello Wingnut, Your experience suggests that my inclination to have a Girl Scout or American Heritage Girl unit chartered by the same group as the Cub Pack and run by a common committee might avoid the kind of problem you describe. Does that sound like something you think would be worth trying?

It's well established that Eagle Courts of Honor, like other Courts of Honor are troop functions. It's intended to carry out Scouting purposes.

So what's a Baden Powell group? Would you be doing that in conjunction with the Cub Pack or separately?

> Hello SM_Travis, The trouble is with the very broad language of BSA's rules. It seems to me that the plain language of those rules requires such incidents to be taken seriously and reported. And we are TRAINED to follow those rules, and BSA has the receipt we signed for that training. It sounds like we can agree that such rules are over zealous. But are we entitled to ignore them and substitute our own opinions and judgment? BSA appears to be CYA with hair trigger rules. Perhaps (I hope) there are good reasons for those rules. I'm not an Xpert in the subject and that they SOUND over the top doesn't mean that there aren't good reasons for them. I just think we are trapped by the rules BSA has adopted and which we have been trained in and agreed to follow. I don't see it as my job to substitute my judgment for BSAs rules. Scoutmasters are supposed to train youth in Youth Protection rules annually. Perhaps the smart thing to do is to point out to boys the hair trigger nature of these rules and why doing stupid stuff that violates the rules may be a very bad idea.

> I would agree that the flag code shows one scheme for displaying the flag in a respectful manor. As I noted earlier, I took my own survey among veterans that I encountered, and most said they thought it was more important to display the flag than to take it down at night. But perhaps you will be pleased--- six months or so ago I removed the flag that had become tattered in that service, and I haven't replaced it ---- yet, anyway. Does that make you happy? I ask that as a serious question, since the alternative would be flying a replacement flag 24/7.

Ahh. So willfulness only looks like fun when you are the one being willfull and others are being tolerant of your willfulness. When others impose their willfulness on you, it's not fair.

> Hello Basement, So how about organizing a Girl Scout or AHG unit right along with your Cub Scout Pack? That really seems like a natural to me, and since AHG has chartered organizations like BSA that suggests you could have two units chartered with a common committee organization and Chartered Organization. It seems to me that a lot of Cub Packs in particular would be hospitable to support a unit for girls in addition to the Cub Scout program.

Hello Bando, You don't mind acting out your own willfulness, but you don't seem to realize other people can do that as well. As I noted earlier, had I been your Scoutmaster, I might have ajourned the Court Of Honor after your political speech without awarding you the honor. Perhaps I might have awarded you the Eagle at a later regular Court of Honor, along with the Tenderfoot and 2nd Class awards. Or perhaps I wouldn't have awarded it to you at all. Perhaps the District Committee would choose to mail you your award. If you want to organize against BSA politically, you are certainly entitled to do that. I have no objection whatsoever. But organize your own forums --- don't hijack an awards ceremony to broadcast your political opinions. That is rude and disrespectful.

My district welcomes Girl Scout troops to Camporee and Klondike Derby. I would suppose they would welcom AHG troops as well.

Too bad Bando's comments at his COH weren't followed up by that District Executive making his Friends of Scouting pitch. He probably could have gotten away with that easier, since it would have been a more appropriate use of the COH than a political pitch by the Eagle honoree.

I fly a US flag from a flagpole I constructed 24/7. Sorry, I don't have the resources for dawn and sunset flag ceremonies. I don't think that indicates disrespect for the flag. I've asked vets their opinion on the matter fromk time to time, and most say they are happy to see the flag being flown. I do replace the flag when it becomes tattered and worn, usually about once/year. Sorry if you find that annoying, but that's life. I guess if the Supreme Court finds a constitutional right to burn the flag as a political gesture and act of contempt, my effort to honor the flag is consistent with the law.

> I'm designing the program I want to build, you are free to do the same. If you want to build a program for 6-11 year old atheists and homosexuals, help yourself.

Ridiculing the religious beliefs of other is a poor practice, in my view.

The trade marks and brand identity of BSA IS valuable. The Congressional charter is a bit of prestigious trivia.

> We'll just get rid of the Scout Oath and Law and let people make up their own ideals, because we don't want to be JUDGMENTAL. Get rid of those BB guns in Cub Scouts and rifles at Scout camp, because we don't want to encourage the use of weapons. We'll have vegetarian meals at Scout camps because eating animals is not politically correct. We can go on and on refining Scouting until it meets all the ideals of modern liberalism.