Scoutfish

First things first: Of what matter is the matter you refer to? What is the problem you want advice on? Lazy, in motivated, chaos, lying, fighting, non attendance?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

let me tell you about one of my personal observations: Golfing is absolutely one of the stupidist, worthless, purposeless, and high risk "sports" i ever saw. You hit a ball away from you only to chase it down, just so you can hit it away again! Pretty much you just stand there and swing - not high physical sport if you ask me. Way less if you use a golf cart. Might even be some beer involved. Sometimes way, way too much beer! All in all, no benefit I can see. But then about 8 years ago, my nephew joined his school's golf team. He got alot more exercise golfing than he did playing the X-Box. He also spent more time in the great outdoors soaking up fresh air and sunlight. But something eklse happened. He learned to set goals forhimself. He mmade a point to not only commit to something, but to increase his skill at it. I have been told by many golfers that they started out for just fun, but somehow,, you always challenge yourself to get better at it/ You always try to lower your score. It becomes a competition with yourself. Now, I used to work at a goilf course for a few years when I was 18. Never took advantage of the free games or cart useage the employees were allowed. I just did my job so I could get home. The only thing I got out of that job was an obsession for a neat manicured lawn at home. So, here's the thing: While I see no usefullness or practical application to playing a game of golf...so what? I don't play. But I won't argue to those who do enjoy golf that they shouldn't. Some people paint, some dance, some go jogging. Others build stuff or fly model planes. I like to fish and camp. It's my thing. Maybe you could look at this scouting thing as your SS's and wife's hobby. It doesn't have to be yours. No big deal. Hey, if nothing else, you could go fishing, bowling, watch old war movies or even go golfing while they are scouting. And your wife won't be calling to ask when you are going to get home. It's a win -win situation! As far as the sleeping bags.. If you can figure out how to get SS to clean up after himself...write a book! I'll buy it and so will millions of others! Then you can retire in a year and do more of whatever it is you do while they go camping!

Having re-read the above statement, I will again say give the patches to the kids. You would not be GIVING them the patches as they have earned them! They participated, so under BSA guidlines.. they completed the requirements. Now, here's where it get's tricky: We need to determine what is actually happening. Is the pack just "giving" away the patches or is that Old School's personal opinion as he sees it? Seeing as some parents made their kids completely finish the requirements, anything less may be ( in their opinion) not completed. But fortunatly for the other kids...those parents opinions do not hold weight over BSA's opinion of what completed meant. Sometimes when we go the extra mile, we inadvertantly move the bar higher without realizing it. Some parents in my pack do not consider getting your rank badge good enough for the year, but expect a few arrow points and at least 3 or 4 belt loops too to have "Earned" your rank. To them, anything less is giving the patch away. I am soooo glad they do not write BSA policy. The Tiger Cub patch is earned by participating (which also satisfies completion) in den and pack and whatever else your tiger den has planned. now we can argue about wether or not forms are signed off or not, but that is 100% speculation and guessing on our part since that was not stated in the original post. Old School never said that the Den leader gave out patches even though requirements were not signed off. and as other pointed out, not being signed off might also just be because it was accidentally forgotten.

I do not condone fighting! PERIOD! But I don't jump at the gun either. I would not excuse physical violence in any way. But having said that, I completelt feel that on the spot suspension is not the right answer either, I might first have all invovled scouts under "tent arrest". See, I will not say that since the scout is special needs, that he is excused. He's not. But I have to wonder.. was he put up to this by other scouts on his "side" , or did he just take ths stick of his own accord? Was he previously teased about not being man or scout enough to get the stick? I mean, even with a good group of kids, you all must have seen that my side vs their side mentality. And given the oppertunity, even the best behaived scouts will prod and egg on other scouts to do less than normal things in the name of fun or competition. Basically, what we say when the kids all get together at family events: "It's all fun and game until somebody gets hurt!" Horsepklay gone wrong may be what happened. Again, physical violence should not be tolerated! But exactly when did it start?

Well, first,I want to thank everybody for their answers. I will seriously use them im ant thoughts and decisions I make.. But I want to be clear about two things: 1) I am in my second year of CUB scouting, and in my first in a leadership (asst) position.I was a very active parent in my first year and asked by the pack to be in the current position I am in. I was also asked by the CM and ACM as well as the COR to head up a Webelos Den next year. So far I have had the following training: Scout Parent Unit Coordinator Unit Commissioner Fast Start This Is Scouting Youth Protection Training Youth Protection Quiz Trek Safety Weather Hazzarda Fast Start: Cubmaster Pack Committee Fast Start Fast Start: Wolf/Bear Den Leader Fast Start: Webelos Den Leader THose were all online classes. I have taken BALOO this past weekend and I am slated for Leader essentials and Leader specific mid April. 2) If I do take Wood Badge, it would be towards the end of this year around November before it's offered again in my Council - at least, that's what our Sr DE said . But he also said don't qoute that. LOL! So If I took it, I would have at least two years activity in the scouts at the time it was offered. Again, I do not want to rush it as I want it to be for the benefit of the scouts, not me. Thanks everybody for your replies! Mark

I'm very proud of my leader uniform, but lately, I have found a slightly unsettling reason to maybe not wear it so much in public: I have walked into too many gast stationds and "food marts" and had too mant people suddenly relax AFTER finding out I wasn't a sheriff deputy. WHAT? These people were kinda nervous and tense with me until they realized my khaki and green BSA leader uniform wasn't a khaki and brown sheriffs uniform. So what if I happen to encounter a gacked out druggy who shoots me because he thought I was a cop only because he did not know what my uniform was? Now... I am still gonna wear my uniform. If I stop at a store before or after a scout function...so be it. I will also eat at restaurants and stop by Wal-Mart too. But you got to wonder what people are really thinking when they stare at you!

Brent, I never said we changed any requirements. Especially since they don't exist. I only said we like to see the cubs dressed from the waist up. I NEVER said we changed altered or made up requirements. but I DID say that BSA does not require uniforms. But I also stated that I personally will praise any scout who does wear the uniform correctly , while not admonishing or belittling any scout who does not. Seems to me that EXACTLY fits: "The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions." But while we are at it: So, when did BSA authorize your troop to change the uniform reguirements? When did BSA authorize your troop to add to the advancement requirements?

Yeah, but that could be said about any cub rank when concerning anything a parent did or didn't sign off on. How would the CM, CC know if a parent didn't just lie also? Participation is the only requirement. There are no tests or exams. They participate , they get the badge. This is 1st grade. Not high school or college. Put thumb screws on a 6 year old and you will not see that boy as a Wolf, Bear, Webelos or Boy Scout. Instead you will see somebody who has a issue with scouting.

Here's my viewon it: I filled out an adult leader application last year I am currently an Assistant Den Leader foir a Bears den. Nobody asked me about my sexual orientation. Nobody asked me about mt religious beliefs. They saw my wife right? Yet, they never saw me kiss her ( not that - that is proof!) at a pack party or B&G. They didn't ask proof that my son was my biological son. Maybe I'm a guardian or adopted him right? But at the same time, OI never really volunteerd that info either. I had the blessing of two comittee members, 3 adults leaders including the CM and ACM as well as the COR. Point is, it never came up. Now to fill in some background. I am a heterosexual male who is a non practicing Episcopal. I just don't see eye to eye with any current religion although I do believe in God and yhave my own views. Thing is, at any and all scout function, I do not talk about my sexual preferences or religious views. I talk about scouting stuff. We do have scout reverance, but it's a pretty much watered down non-denominational thing . It's more of a "code of general good morals " than anything else. Why? Because we have a few Jewish kids,m a Muslim, a Bhuddist and the rest are various "christian" denominations (although actual practive of is debateable). Ok,here's my point: Why not a Don't ask, don't tell attitude? I didn't walk into the scout meeting talking about my sexual preferebnces. Why shouls a gay person? I didn't talk about my religious views..whyshould an athiest, agnostic or Deist? If you want to be a part of scouting for the sake of teaching and coaching kids...why not go into it with that attitude: IT's about the kids! Not about you or me or our own preferences. I presonally don't care how gay you are or are not when you are telling my son about hos to catch a fish or the best way to strike flint against..whatever you strike flint against. I don't care if you are Muslim, Bhuddist, Pagan or Christian - or none_ when you teach my son the best way to dry a wet tent after a rainstorm. Point is, anything and everything I have taught so far is taught as a camping/hiking/backpacking/lets build something out of wood scout leader. Not as a - I want to have sex with a guy/girl/ inflatable doll while rejecting/embracing God scoutleader. Leave the sex completely out of it. Use general good morals as a Interfaith thing and it covers all, not just one!

Cub Scout Leader Fast Start Training. Youth Protection Training. This is Scouting. Been there - done that! Taken 10 overall. I want Wood Badge, but I don't want to rush it! Kinda like cooking a 200lb pig. 350 degrees for 8 hours. Not 700 @ 4 hrs, not 1400 degrees for 2 hrs. Can't ruch it, just let it take it's time. But with Wood Badge.. I don't know what the time to take it after other courses are.

I agree with Evmori. After each and every day... After each den meeting, pack meeting, scouting event. After each campout or Blue and Gold I attend...after going to anothetr training,,my views are changing. BSA does not require a uniform. They may want you to wear the most com-plete uniform you can, and may want you to show as much pride in it as you can WHEN you do wear it... but I'd call neat in appearance : Any teenager who is wearing pants that are not torn up and stained , and his hair is combed and he isn't wearing a mustache of the pizza he had for lunch. To be honest..I'd almost call that a miracle.

I just finished my BALOO training this past weekend. I'm slated for leader essentials and leader specific as soon as it comes around again in my council. I have taken 10 online classes through BSA too. While taking BALOO, two if our seven instructors were were in the middle of Wood Badge. Another instructor had finished it 2 years ago and another had finished it before that. Matter of fact, two were Owls and two were Beavers ( Or flat tails as one lovingly called it!) Nobody had anything bad to say about taking Wood Badge, and did nothing but praise it. One of the Beaver Patrol students happened to be a retired Army colonel . He said that Wood Badge : A) Is like the PhD of Scouting....and B) You really learnmore about yourself than Scouting. All in all, just the way the four Wood Badger's talked, most of us were very impressed and I myself want to take it. But here's the thing: I'm not into collecting training or just seeing how many I can take in as short a time as possible. I want to do it right, I want it to count, and I want it to be something that not only helps me, but also helps my pack, and most importantly - helps the boys. To be blunt, I do not want to bite off more than I can chew, nor do I want to take it too soon. I want to take it when time says it's a good time to take it. So, I guess my question is: How soon is too soon? How much experience should I have under my belt? Other than Leaders essentials, leader specific and BALOO , ( online I have Youth Proitection) should I do something else first? All commenst and theorys are appreciated, but please do not say: "Read your book." If it was that simple, I wouldn't be asking right now. I already read my leader books. If it's in another book, I don't have it!

I have a question, and I mean this sincerly and openly: How awkward would it be - after starting the 3rd patrol - to take a 4th older scout, who's ben in it a while, and make him the SPL? But Not so much as bing senor, but as being a co-ordinator? I guess you could almost call it a Senor Patrol Co=ordinator instead of leader. THis scout would not so much be in charge, but would be an organizer of the 3 patrols, Is this dumb, impractical ,or possibly just doesn't make sense? I am asking as a parent who's entire scouting experience is only with CUB scouting and not BOY scouting whatsoever!

EXACTLY! Bret, I never said I didn't respect the program. I jusy went by the program. If the Tigers show and and "DO THIER BEST"... Then the have met and completed trhe requiremnts for the Tiger badge! And by giving them that badge, you are not only respecting the program, but are following it!

Here's my .02 on it: Name anything that isn't discriminated against in some part at some place. I live within, between 10 minutes to 2 hours (any direction) from 7 military bases. The closest being Marine Corps Base Camp Lejune. As I have lived in my area since 1977, I have met many , many fine marines. Many kind courtious and helpfull sailors too. But let one Marine or "boot" get into a fight at a local bar, and all you hear about for 6 months is "Those stupid jarheads!" Nobody sees, notices or remembers the marines who do good deeds, work with habitat for humanity or cleaned up and rebuilt the local kids park. There are about 6 different churches in 3 square miles from my house17 in a 20 sq mile area. Not a big deal, But each church gets a bad reputation due to a few "self rightous and egotistical self proclaimed saints". Let 1 member of any church be a braggart, and the whole church gets a bad name. I'm not so sure scouting is any different. Let that one mom or dad brag about why Jr is sooooo much better than your kids because he can tale a pine cone and create a nuclear bomg and luanch it into space with a super popsicle trobuchea? ..Uhhh..catapult! Those parents kids just sucks up all the "glory is me" attention and soon becaomes conceted. Nobody likes that kid either! That parent makes you want to punch them when they talk about their kids. You hope your kid never turns out that way and as a matter of fact, you do not allow your own kid to join! In NASCAR, some fans get the notion that if you can yell louder than anybody, not only are you smarter, but your driver somehome magically becomes more skilled! So, my point? Let one conceited scout( or his parents) stand up, yell louder , harder and more self rightously than anybody else.. and that's all the public sees. Not the other 50 scouts in the same pack who are normal and do great stuff for the community for the sake of doing it! Anyways, we as scouters see the discrimination against us, but everybody( groups) gets it. Some more or worse than others.

Greaves, Although it wasn't directly applied to BSA or Cub Scouts in particular, I once heard it said that: "A great leader will know when to dole out responcibilities and duties to others in order the get the best results for getting the job done!" Sounds like you are ahead of the game! And listening to ScoutNut's reply... I'd say anybody trying to do it all by themselves would actually be detrimental to the Webelos program!

Brent, I agree. I never said we changed anything. I said we don't require pants. And then Iexplained that I myself will praise a boy in full uniform, but will not criticize one who is not. BSA does not require unifroms. BSA would love for everybody to have one and wear it correctly. But do not require oit for participation. Now, I will also add that "I" feel like that any child who stays in the program and is going camping, hiking and what not esach month... ought to be able to have a full uniform. I would think that if you can afford to buy tents, backpacks, knives, sleeping bags and all the necesarry equipment as well as all the extra non essential equipment... you can afford a uniform. Personally, I wear my unifrom with pride, and UI try to wear it as best as I can. If I have the sligfhtest doubt ( such as temo badge) I will ask in order to wear it correctly. But as I also read from a wiser member in here... common sense should always prevail over BSA policy such as wearing a uniform ( at Klondike) when wearing warmer clothes is the rule of safety.

I have to agree with OGE. You want to do what you can to include everybody, and you also want to take thier circumstances into consideration, but there is a line that should not be crossed: The line of physical safety. I can tell you all day long that my son might not really know what he's doing when he breaks your son's arm.., but that arm is still broken, it still hurts and it could happen again. The overall welfare of the group is more important than the welfare of just one!

I pretty much don't follow things I see. I go by my uniform guide or the diagrams at the back of the books, My confusion came about because some patches seem to have rules based on the particular patch and not the standard unifrom guide. I doo see people put big gaps between council and den number patches. I see den numbers on the wrong side. I have seen people wear "Trained" patches without having more than committee fast start training. But I never saw a BALOO patch until I was handed one after completeing my training. And one instructor had his on his right pocket, but another instructor had a Wood Badge patch there so his BALOO was on his right arm.

OUCH! That's a tough one. Now, right off the bat, I almost said no, make them earn it! No freebies. And I would have agreed about it showing you can slack off and still get the badge. But then, I also look at it this way: The motto is "DO YOUR BEST!" Not "Get-er-done!" Now , if it's only tigers and not the whole ranking of the pack..it may be less of a deal to give out the badges for participating than trying to drag them in next year as wolves. That make sense? Let them have them, They will be excited and proud to show those badges off, Next year, they will be happy to come back, and at that time, you can work more on really earning those badges. I'm not saying give anybody a free ride by any means, nor do I mean to imply that it doesn't matter...but the CUB part of scouting is pretty much about getting boys ready for BOY scouting. And we are talking about 1st graders here. At that age, I'm just happy to see any boy sticking out an entire program year. Give them the badge. Nobody is getting away with anything. But for those that "truely" earned it.... well, that's extra satisfaction for them!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Basement,my specific example was our CUB SCOUT pack, but my answer was for either or both troops or packs. BSA does not require uniforms. PERIOD! Now, we can argue details about what each person calls them,what color they are or what fabric is best,but that has absolutely nothing to do with what the big answer is : Too much emphasis is placed on uniforms when they are required or if lack of wearing a uniform prevents advancement or participation!

I guess each pack/troop can decide what their "uniform code" should be, but as long as a scout is not denied advancement, as long as he's not denied participation or acceptance in the program... it would be okay. In our pack, we like our cubs to wear a class A uniform for pack meetings, B&G, field trips, and Crossover. It would be nice if they wore them to den meetings, but not a big deal if they don't. Now, our version of class A for the cubs starts with the official belt and buckle, and works upward from there. We do not require offical pants as we know that a brand new pair of BSA pants can be ruined in 5 mintes. Jeans just hold up better for our boys. Now, at any event where we are wearing the classA uniform, I will make a point of telling a Cub how sharp he looks when his shirt is tucked in and wearing everything right. I will not fuss at a scout who's shirt is out, who isn't wearing the hat or necker. Chances are good that mom and dad didn't say anything other wise, so he may not have a clue. AS the scouts get older, I do explain that looking sharp goes a long way with the publics view and other folks too. But I don't lecture or criticize them. That's what mom and dad are for. But I will tell them I expect their best effort for color guard duty. "Best" being the key word. BSA dsoesn't require uniforms. Don't judge a book by it's cover. The wrapping paper doesn;'t have anything to do with the present Yeah, all that other stuff too! LOL!

Skeptic, I have been laughed at for having a compass as well as a GPS Other people ask me why I even need a compass. First I tell them that a GPS doesn't work without power. Nor if they are in a bad signal area. Secondly, I tell them to stand still and tell me which way is north by using a GPS. GPS only knows whats going on if you are moving. Some GPS need a bit of movement to configure. Ask what happens if somebody gets stranded in a spot and then figure out if they are north, east, south or west ofthat landmark over there!

Yep... It's a re-learn. But it won't be so bad: It's not learning from scratch, but just going a slight bit into more detail on something he's already learned. Shouldn't be too bad at all.

This is probably a dumb question...but if you know me,...You know "I ain't scared to ask!" LOL! I just finished my BALOO training yesterday, and I wanted to sew my BALOO patch on my right pocket as a temporary patch. Now, I'm pretty sure I'm way overthinking this, and making a bigger issue than what it is, but here goes: Is a BALOO patch ok to use as a temporay patch? Should it be sewn on the right pocket or be secured to one of those temporary "hook on your button thingys? " (sorry, the name has totally eluded me right now.) Or do I put it on my right sleeve as I have seen some various leaders from various packs do with a few different patches?(or is that a different matter entirely?) Speaking of different packs..I'm not a member of the uniform police - but they would have had a field day at BALOO training yesterday. You could almost identify what pack was what by the way the patches were put on. Anyways, Where does that patch go? Not trying to pat myself on the back.. But I wouldn't mind sporting the patch around for a day or two before I put it away with my other scout stuff. Thanks! Mark