Scoutfish

Merlyn, I think --- "when the real policy and practice of the BSA does not agree with the stated policy and practice of the BSA, doesn't that indicate something's wrong somewhere? Aren't people supposed to follow the official policy? " ---- pretty much describes everything in life except mother nature. What you dsaid would apply to every form of government from local mayor to President of the United States. It would apply to free market, retail and wholesale sales, The music industry as well as Tv and theatre. It would describe the auto industry as well as insurance. Pretty much across the board in hospital health care, medical billing, and health insurance. Matter of fact, short of Mother Nature.. It would be hard to find any group, club, government or any form of organazation with people involved that actually followed written policy as intended. Just an observation!

Speaking of showers......the church retreat that we rent our campout at has a building dedicated to bathrooms and showers. It's a block building with two completely seperated facilities on opposite sides. 3 seaters and two urinals and 3 showers, and 3 sinks for the guys, and 4 seaters, 4 sinks, 3 showers and 12 mirrors for the women. LOL! Just kidding about the mirrors! The showers are not seperated.They are more of locker room style, but can easily be configured for privacy if you are willing to shower one at a time. There is a grate system in the shower floor so you are not standing in dirty water while showering. The buyilding has heat, but it's pretty much used to prevent pipes from freezing.. Honestly, I used a ton of baby wipes to clean up each evening and would have opted to not shower at all over using the shower facilities. No, I'm not a panty waist, but even Rambo has standards. As far as the kids....LOL... I did not see one child get upset over the idea of missing a shower for one night.

Nah, you are noyt becoming part of the UP yet. When you get out a tape measure to be sure that a Fluer de lis is exactly center between pocket and shoulder seam, and you use a ruller/ square to make sure it is dead center from side to side..then look out. If you find that the council patch is ALMOST an 1/8 inch below the shoulder/arm seam, and you demand it be fixed... Then you are there! But from what you describe, it sounds like you only have pride in the uniform and that you only want to see others have that pride too. Good call if you ask me!

So far, the only and last one I got was the red cover celebrating 100 years. I have seen the cover with a man holding a camera- online, but have not recieved it in te mail yet.

I find the wording to be funny. Not humorous either. Showers must be provided. But what exactly constitutes a shower? A 20 gallon cleaned out oild drum on stilts. Maybe one of thosr shower set ups like they used in the TV series MASH4077? Maybe one of thosr portable 5 gallon solar sun showers you hang froma tree branch? How about toilets facilities. At BALOO, one instructor mentioned one of those "tent sty;e" port a jons. I forget the name, but it's a 5 gallon bucket with a bag in it. It's built into a canvas collapsible bench surrounded by a tent. Has a box of more bags for te next guy and a toilet paper holder. Anybody know the name of that? Then tyhe very first question on the form: Is the site clean and safe from hazzards? By who's definition? Hopefully, not from some of the parents in my pack. Our council has a list of approved sites, they are all council and district sites and all surrounding state parks. Likewise, any competent person SHOULD be able to find a site that meets the trequirements, while at the same time, finding out that many if not all "approved" sites will fail to meet at least 1 if not 2 or 3 of the mandatory requirements. But I guess that falls under "reasonable" right? LOL!

Oak Tree Insurance isn't the reason I won't go along, but I thought it might be the icing on the cake. My reasons for going against it is as follows: *The Cub Scout Motto:* DO YOUR BEST Best what> way of getting around rules? *The Cub Scout Promise:* I "X" promise to do my best, To do my duty to God, And to my country, To help other people, and to obey the Law of the pack. Somewhere in there is does not say try to get around rules and regulations et by BSA, but under duty to God ande duty to country, you are expected to obey the rules and laws set by society, community and such - under God, we are expected at the least to make good moral jusdgements and to be honest and upstanding. *The Law of The Pack:* The cub scout follows Akela The cub scout helps the pack grow The pack helps the cub scout grow The cub scout gives good will So the scout will follow Akela, but what if he doesn't want to? What right have we to fuss if we as adults and leaders do te same thing against council? Goodwill probably doesn't mean sneaking around rules or finding loopholes. Now, I'm just too lazy to type the 12 core values,and it'snot like I just said anything you weren't awars of. LOL! For me it comes down to this: As leaders we are "supposed" to be trying to teach our scouts to make good rational and respectable decisions. We teach them that they need to follow rules even if they don't understand them or the bigger picture behind them. We tell our scouts that they should be upstanding and do the right thing even if it's not the most popular thing to do. Then as adults, we sit and scheme about how to get around a BSA rule intended for our safety? I have no doubt that you know the 12 points of the scout law in ways I cannot begin to understand. So looking at those 12 points, we as leaders would be killing trustworthy and loyal. We'd be totally destroying obediant and brave. Granted, we could pass out MB's for Thrifty, but I don't think that is the right kind of thrifty. Basically, it comes down to this...we spend meeting after meeting teaching scouts right from wrong, then as leaders we do the wrong thing becauze... "It might be fun." ? How screwed up is that? That is why I will not go along with the canoe idea at a pack family campout.

Well, as a new ADL this year,I learned that we too will be having a total pack crossover. I didn't know last year, because as a parent, I had prior obligations during the event. Anyways, it's a formal ceremoni for the cubs who stuck out the entire year. At our "official ceremony" we cross over each rank: Tiger, Wolve, Bear..etc and when the cross the bridge, they are handed a book and neckerchief of the next CS rank. When the Webelos cross over, we use AO Indians and go bit more ceremonious ( is that a word?). It's all in fun and inclusion for all the lower cub ranks and helpsthem understand tyhe signifigance of the Webelos crossing over to Boy Scouts.

Well, I was never involved as a Cub or Boy scout as a child. Matter of fact, I am just now in my second year of scouting as an adult and my first year in a leadership position. While at a pack family campout, I was helping with teaching BB guns ( oooooh yeah, we know NOW that - that was a big ole NO NO!) So anyways, I was helping teach..ahem.. something, and had a small shy Tiger Cub come up and try toi shoot. I went over all the safety stuff and what not, and it was time to shoot. He took his five shots and missed each time. Well, that Tiger Cub looks at me and says" I suck at everything!" I told him to wait and after we cleared the range, went to fetch his target. I had a siding nail in my pocket, and as I took his target off the bale of hay, I poked a hole around the 7 to 8 point area of the target. When I showd the Tiger Cub the hole...he gave me a high five and a hug. Then ran of real happy to his next event. Later on, after everybody went through the "not so allowed" BB gun activity - LOL! This same Tiger Cub came back and asked if he could try it again. I said sure and we did it again. This time, 5 shots - 5 hits, 1 bull's eye! WHat was different this time? He had confidence! He gave me another hug and then drug his mom over to introduce me: " Hey mom! Mr.Mark taught me to shoot!" NOw, I'm sure I will have alot of memories to go with that one, one day..but right now, that is my greatest one!

Really? I got mine 3 weeks ago! LOL! Nah seriously, I was wondering where mine was too. But I wasn't gonna be the first to say anything since the last one was my first and I wasn't sure of the schedule. But noticed the online version ( which is not even close to good) has been out for about 3 or 4 weeks.

And while I will not try or nor would I consider trying to change your ideas and beliefs.. I will answer another question you asked: Well, if we break everything down to a straight up scientific method and use all know laws of science, physics and theorys too ( which is what my HS science teacher said was man's way of saying HOW God did it)and break it down to the Big Bang Theory or even before that.... all science notated and accounted for... where did the very first atom or molecule come from? What was it's orgin? Where did everything start at ona cellular level? Sure, I know you can say the same for God. So what would we say? "You are right, how does science explain that? It doesn't! Must be magic or a higher power!"

yann, Let me answer your original question: WEll, I do not let them, and I also do not - not let them. To be honest, the policy, the decidon and choice was not mine. It was the policy of a group that was already in existance when I joined. Truth be told, I have no problems with athiests as it will not change how scouting teches my son about scouting stuff. And intelligence is not constrained by either religion ( or lack of) beliefs or sexuality or ethnicity.

Another fine example: A couple weeks ago, our Cm asked me to present awards for popcorn sales to our Cub Scouts.Something came up at work unexpectedly and she could not make the pack meeting. She called me 1 1/2 hours before the meeting. Like I said, it happened unexpectedly. Just before the meeting, as I was sorting out the prizes, paperwork and patches to go with the cubscouts... a mom approached me. She asked me if I was in charge of all the popcorn stuff. I said no and explained exactly why I was handling any popcorn stuff that night ( which was only handing out awards and recognition). She then asked me if her so was going to get an award. Then tells me that she has handed out over $450.00 in popcorn to customers, but hasn't collected or turned in any money yet. I told her , that while I wasn't an expert in popcorn sales and distribution and collections, I assumed that he probably wouldn't get any prize or award until the money was turned in. She got all mad at me and showed her butt and walked away muttering under her breath about me, the pack , and see if she ever helps out again! Didn't matter that I had just told her I was only handing out prizes as it was listed on a piece of paper that I had just gotten less than 30 minutes before. The money was actually supposed to be turned in a long long time ago as you all probablt know. I cannot say with any certainty, but I'm sure our pack paid for ( translation- Lost $$$ on ) that popcorn. So, I wonder why packs have a hard time getting people to sign up as leaders? LOL! And in other thoughts... has a study ever been conducted between the relationship of late stage adult alcoholism and post active scout leaders/ committee? LOL!

bear dad, Although I am only an ADL, and i have only been invovled in scouting for 2 years.. I completely understand where you are coming from. Last year,I mentioned somethimng about possibly becoming an ADL this year. My son's DL almost did back flips. Earlier this year, ...somehow the conversation came up about being DL's. I casually mentioned that I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of being a DL next year. WOW! I'm almost certain I heard angels sing and thousands of doves fly to the heavens! LOL! Before I knew it, I had several other dls all patting me on the back, invites to every Cub scout/ boy scout lreader training ever thought of ( not to mention I am suddenly on a dozen mailing lists for classes) and Had the CM, ACM, as well as the CC call me in less than 48 hours - just as happy as a pig in mud to talk to me. THis year, I have been to leader and committee meetings. I really made a point of listening to parents and what not during den and pack meetings. This is what I have learned: 15% working for 85 % is more apt. Every parent can tell you exactly what is wrong and how bad it is, but cannot for the life of them give you a soulution or help you fix it. Parents do not have time to even hold a door open for you, but have plenty of time to drive 20 miles to get to Wal-Mart and go shopping and have dinner while you are watching their kids at a den meeting. Those same parents do not have time to work with thei own kids, and usually don't have a clue as to what their child is doing.. but know without a doubt that on pack meeting nights - their kid should gwt an award for "something" because " they have been in it long enough!" And I don't know about any of you guys, but I hate when somebody spews "If you had the right program and training, everybody would drop their personal lives and line up to help out!" BS! That's the whole problem! The parents don't care! They do not want to get involved even if you offered to pay then for their time! They are not interested and won't lift a finger . Why? Because then they couldn't complain about who was responcible for things that went wrong! And that is the biggest reason I see parents who do help burn out: They do the work of paid professionals and catch flack from people who have no clue and no willingness to bother helping!

Oak Tree.. You sure about the insurance? Li4e I said, I have no intentions of canoeing, I will not support the canoeing, not will I assit or help anybody else with the canoes. But if I as a ADL , along with other pack leaders help scouts bget into the canoes KNOWING it is a DIRECT violation of BSA policy and against written G2SS guidlines, AND WE WERE AWARE OF IT BEFORE THE FACT.... couldn't BSA say that the permit was null and void as we did not foillow and adhear to the "contract" of the tour permit, BSA guidlines and policy. I mean, If I was part of whoever is in charge of handling insurance.. I'd say "Oh no! We aren't coverimng that at all! And I'd argue in court that the reasons were that the pack mislead and lied about their intended activities when they filled out and filed the tour permit. Granted, you would have to prove the pack knew beforehand that the activity wasn't allowed, but wouldn't a wavier for canoeing be just that proof?

Artjrk.. Yeah, actually, I didn't say d0o whatever during a designated family time. I just said whatever they do before it starts is up to them. On our campout flyer/form or whatever you want to call it, it says that the camp/retreat opens at 4 pm. Well, actually, the gates are open all day long. Well, to be honest, the gates are always open, but it's used as a figure of speach implying when we are expected to show up. So if family gets there at 2:30 and decides to go canoeing before anybody else shows up.,that is their buisness and not any part of a sanctioned pack event. Now don't mistake what I am saying: I DO NOT LIKE THE IDEA! I AM NOT TRYING TO GET AROUND THE RULE. I AM TRYING TO KEEP THE PACK FROM GETTING AROUND THE RULE! ( not yelling, I'm emphasizing.)

I suppose I'll just have to make sure that if my son ever gets stranded ( wether by airline acident, train wreck, or hiking incident) that he gets stranded next to a Long John Silver's or Mikey D's! Because everybody knows that fast food was never "killed" it was just born into patties!

"Definition of "ACTIVE A Scout will be considered "active" in his unit if he is 1.Registered in his unit (registration fees are current) 2.Not dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons 3.Engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (informed of unit activities through Scoutmaster conference or personal contact, etc. 4.In communication with the unit leader on a quarterly basis. (Units may not create their own definition of active; this is a national standard.) If the Scout does not initiate communication, the unit leader is to contact the Scout and ask if the youth wishes to remain in Scouting. If the answer is negative, then the unit leader should no longer communicate with the Scout. If the answer is affirmative, the unit leader should provide the unit calendar. After six months of nonparticipation, the unit leader may cease to contact with the youth and drop the Scout from the unit at recharter time. The Scout may return to the unit at any time while on the unit charter. At any time a Scout is dropped from a charter, the youth may re-apply to a unit for readmission; the acceptance of the application is at the discretion of the unit. The youth would be reinstated at the rank and level that can be documented by either the Scout or the unit." So why the new definition? Because the old one wasn't quite as clear. Is this one perfect? Not hardl;y, but a bit more clear and precise. Before, you could pay your dues and never show up, never do anything and that was okay... as long you paid your dues each year. Funy about the associate position though...That one sounds like you can pay your dues, but never show up, except at re charter to pay your dues. Just a way to keep the money coming it. But hey! If those scouts or parents want to keep giving the money... let them!

Ooops! LOL! So I meant to add: On Friday, after you set up your own tent/ campsite, you are free to do what you want. If any individual family wanted to go swimming, canoeing, rock climbing, snipe hunting, etc... as individual families.. Then that's up to them. But they should bring their own canoes and not ones the pack rents.

IM_Kathy: I don't have any issue with what you said. My son and I go boating ourselves. Matter of fact, I let ghis steer and run the throttle a little bit here and there too( rest assured I'm standing right behind him). You know... because it's cool and fun. My problem is: 1) Are we teaching Scouts to find a way to go around rules they don't like? Where does it stop? 2) If somebody really did want to sue.. well, I beleive a jury would say: "Since your pack contacted the canoe rental, rentred the canoes, rented the canoe guide/ life guard... and did it all during the middle of a pack family event..you are indeed resposnsible for anything that happens. Furthermore, by trying to use a wavier as a scape goat, we are actually proving that we did indeed know it was wrong and proceeded anyways. But you are right about what yopu said: If anybody shows up early, and does something on their own accord.. that's their buisness. This camping area is actually Church owned retreat/ get away/ camping/ lodge area, and we are renting the use of it. It is not a public park or national parks/ camp ground. We show up Friday afternoon and set up your own tent, and help out with the "dining hall" ( big tent) . Then you are pretty much on your own Fri night including your own supper. Saturday, it officially kicks in at 8am ( allows time if you didn't stay Fri night) We start with a pancake and bacon breakfast. Diferent dens are responcible for helping prepare meals, clean up, etc.. W do some activities, until lunch. Another den helps with that, Around an hour of free time and then more activities. Later we have supper and some free time. In the fall, we have a campfire gathering and just talk, hang out, do both cub and adult skits. For this spring, we are having out "official" Crossover ceremony with bridges, OoA Indians and also have lined up a handfull ofactive military for a flag retirement ceremony. Sunday morning, it's a hot chocolate/ coffee and honey bun breakfast. Scout's reverance. Break camp, clean up and do the LNT thing.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Okay, I am wondering about this: Isn't there some sort of unwritten rule or traditional expectation as to what camp dinner is going to be? As a child, I never expected fried chicken or strawberry cheese cake for dessert while camping. No chocolate Mousee, no eclairs, no steak tar tar. I mean, I know there are no rules and you should do as you like... but come on, this is camping! Supposed to be hot dogs, hamburgers, steak or chicken. Fish if you want to carry the oil too. If you feel your gut can handle it, beef stew or chilli! LOL! You know what I mean? Not saying you have to eat hot dogs all week, but this is camping, not culanary school. One weekend of not eating fine dining won't kill anybody.

Yeah, I think it is the nature of the position. It sucks too! Yet anybody who becomes a S

Merlyn... My line of thinking is this: Anybody who pays taxes to the government deserves government representation. If you are straight, gay, athiest, diest, complete radical nut, or just crazy! I'd draw the line to groups that promote and actively participate in harming or detaining others against their free will. I take my son to see the local Christmas parade. He is just looking at all the cool floats. He doesn't seem to follow a Christian connection to Christmas/Jesus / Christmas parades. He just like the floats... mostly the military and fire depts. So a parade interuppted a publicly taxed, created and maintained roadway. Tax funded police officers had to block roads and direct traffic for a religious ( well used to be) event. So what? Don't those same tax dolars on public roads also allow gay pride parades? Don't they also allow the Rose Bowl ( sports) and any and all those ethnic parades Chinese parades, Mexican, Polish, Itailian, St Paddy's day ( Oh Lord help me: Drinking and Catholic Sts! ) I have religious beliefes, but not sure I can personally claim any organized religion ( that I am aware of) as being my own. Man kind has scrrewed with too many things in the name of powwer for me to follow trhose. But I do not care if those groups use schools, parks, our nation's hiways or what not. They paid taxes too. Therefore the government cannot deny their use. Merlyn, you pay taxes too, I assume. So I have no issue with you using any of tose same buildings, hiways, parks, etc. Now, I don't want to sound stupid, ( but I don't care if I do!) But I have to assume that you are either gay, athiest, or both. That's cool with me. Since you pay taxes, I have no qualms about the government funding, allowing use of their buildings or whatever to gay or athiest groups. I am not gay. I am not athiest, I don't necessarily share your beliefs ( although I do not personally think being gay is a choice) but I completely defend your rigfht to your beliefs and your rights as a taxpayer to be able to hold meetings, and clubs/ groups activities at govt funded places. No matter what your beliefs are, they won't affect my beliefs. Mine should affect yours. So what's the big deal? If the parents of scouters pay taxes, then there is no reason why schools shouldn't be able to charter BSA. If there was such a thing as athiest ( or Diest) scouts... I'd have no issue with them being CO'd by a school. Doesn't matter to me if the Purple Juice drinking NIKE wearing fanatics want to have meetings at the school as long as they pay taxes.

Well, it's just like I said. The Wolf scout has it in his mind ( and I really don't know why) that his dad MUST be the one who works on stuff with the cub scout. When dad gets home.. he's done his work for the day and can officially ignore the whole family until bedtime...except on cub scout night. On those occasions, he brings the son to the meetings and sorta just fades into the shadows of a corner. The den leader ( not me by the way) tried all kinds of things to get this scout to get involved and learn even the basic Bobcat stuff. The boy is just there, sometimes he might actually be listening, but doesn't seem to hold it. The rest of the time, he's just waiting til the meeting is over so him and dad can work on whatever the den is doing. Why does he think this? Beats the hell out of me since dad hasn't done anything yet! Maybe it's hopefullness or just a sign of missing the picture. As far as the den leader... what can he do? If all the other scouts are ( for the most part) advancing and earning their rank badges as well as Arrow Points, and a few BeltLoops here and there.. I can't say it's the way the den is run. No. it's not a special needs situation either. Just a kid who wants to do stuff with his dad so badly, he's misleading himself over the idea that dad will suddenly become Baden Powell himself. But as far as the den leader goes... what can he really do? Hold the kid down and tell him that he MUST listen and earn his Bobcat and Wolf Badge? Can't do that. Should he say that if you don't meet this percentage of advancement...you're out? Can't do that either. Granted, this isn't every cub scout or every DL either. But there are a few parents who do not participate, and do not really care. It's their kids who are falling behind. With this new Cub Scouts 2010 idea... DL have quite a bit more leverage and power to see that kids participate and actively do things. As it is now, SOME parents do not bother to lift a finger, and the book promotes family and home participation of activities over den participation. Meaning home time gets a higher percentage of importance over den time. Now honestly, it should be that way. But parents should also have alot of interest in their kids lives. But when they don't. Cub Scouts 2010 steps up and takes the initiative. But as for my son, your son, and many active parent's sons... I doubt any of them would even notice a difference. Honestly, I think the reason behind Cub Scouts 2010 is an antidote to the above mentioned parents: Those who don't do anything and don't care to, yet expect all kinds of trophies and awards..... even if they don't know what for!

Clapping!

Okay, despite that some of the later posts indication that advancement would be held outside the den meetings, I am going with the original post that states that MORE advancements and requirements would be handles at den meetings. This is what I have observedthis year: My Brother in law, is pretty much a total slacker. Period! He has complained about Pine Wood Derby because..gasp... he had to help his Wold son cut the car out. He could not understand why BSA, our pack, or his son'sden leader would expect a 8 year old to use a table saw, chop saw, and a drill press! No, I don't know what kind of car he was going to build that would need all that equipment! After one of out pack meetings, my BIL pretty much told me he was upset his son didn't specifically get called up for an award. I asked him what award was it he thought his son should get. The answer: " I don't know." I asked what his son was working on "I don't know." What has his den done lately? "I don't know." So I asked why did he think his son should be "specifically" called up to get an award. " Because he's been doing it long enough." So here it is: A parent takes his son to den meetings twice a month, sometimes 3 times, goes to 1 pack meeting each month and occasionally goeson an pouting to a fire dept or police dept. AND HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HIS SON OR SON'S DEN IS DOING? He has no idea what acheivements his son has completed or is currently in? Basically put, come B&G, his son has not even earned his Bobcat Badge. Why> Because dad does not know what that is. UI talked with the Den leader who is pretty frustrated with dad. He has told dad time and time again what needs to be done. Dad says "That's why he's here!" The den leader has tried to work with the boy, but the boy thinks "Me and dad are gonna work on that together." and doesn't want to do it with the DL.. So what do you do?