Scoutfish

Well, no! Just the oposite. I think anybopdy who pays taxes has equal rights to public facilities. PERIOD! Religion, race, sexual nature, ethnicity . etc.. are just unrelated details to using a public facility. Public is pretty much recognized ( very loosly, okay) as citizens who pay the taxes. Anything after that shouldn't matter: race, religion, favorite color or sport,income, job title, age, etc,, shouldn't be considered or even thought about. I do not have any thing remotely as being exact numbers, but I am GUESSING that *AT LEAST* half ( could be way way more) of the tax paying citizens of America believe in God or some sort of god or higher diety. Now,, if *AT LEAST* half of all taxpayers believe in some sort of god or higher power, and since the government( voted on by a nation half made of religious tax paying folks) has never specifically said we should follow any one particular kind or form of religion.. then why should government funded entities - such as schools - not be allowed to charter a BSA pack/troop? And more specificaly, and as an example, the pack that I am an ADL to, is CO'd by a Methodist church. So far, in the two years I have been a part of this pack, we have not had any Methodist achievements nights or had any meeting of a Methodist persuasion. To be quite honest, The most prominat association I can see with the CO is that we get to use their building and we hold Scout Sunday once a year. That's it. No other influence than that! All kinds of groups and clubs of like minded people use publicly funded and built buildings all the time. So what? I may not follow their beliefs or even like them. But as long as those people pay taxes that maintain those buildings, and nobody is harmed, killed or held against their will...then have at it! Likewise, since scouting is a group of folks - who joined of their own free will - to be with other like minded folks of their own free will.....and nobody was brainwashed or forced to join...then why all the fuss?

In our pack, we really don't put much signifigance on permission slips, even though we send them out. It is our veiw that by having a parent bring their cub scout to a meeting, pack campout,field trip, or paying for an event, etc....they are giving permission. But in a few cases, it's different: We had a Bear scoutlast year who lives with his grandparents. Both parents died way back when somehow. Well, the grandparents were not about to go camping. They knew the cubmaster pretty well personally, so that particular permission slip said that the cub scout could go to the family pack campout. CM was responcible for the Cub scout ( being due to the friendship, not CM duty or expectation), and all YPG were followed( privacy, seperate tents, public/in view at all times). Nothing happened to challenge the scout from being there...but a signed permission slip was on file just in case any issue arose.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

What would your definition of a "tax supported entity" be? If you made a list of "tax supported entities" - who would you put on it?

Being a CUB scouter and not a BOY scouter myself( ADL) - I could be wrong, but have to ask: Isn't holding a POR or leadership positio within a patrol required for some advancement? I mean, I guess ther are possibly different rules for lone scouts ( no experience myself) but at the same time, it sounds like it just couldn't work.

Just a simple statement. But also wide ranging and very complicated. So how do you define a "tax supported" entity? I could easily say government or even public schools. I could say the US Armed Forces and National parks. I could say public hiways and public beaches. I could even say your aunt and uncle and possibly you too. Why? Well...it all depends on YOUR version of what "tax supported" means. I am not a state employee , nor do I work for the federal government. I install garage doors for a living. I do it for a private company. I used to install commercial /industrial garage doors, but switched over to residential garage doors about 8 years ago. Am I "tax supported" ? You tell me. As a commercial installer, I put doors in at several federal and state courthouses. I put some in on several military bases too. A few in highly restricted and 1 even in a classified area. I have installed doors at the end of military runways and at ammo depots. I have installed who knows how many at state ports. I also put garage doors up at hiway traspotation maintanence buildings for the state. I have installed at state and federal parks ( maint bldgs). So, due to the government( both state and federal) I was employed at my job and made wages due to state /federal money which came from taxes. I have furnished my house, bought my transportation and had vacations due to federal and state money. My father in law worked for the NC state Maint dept for over 40 years. My mother in law was a techer in NC. My Father was in the USCG for 22 years 3 months (yeah, that is an odd amount of time). So pretty much at all points of my life, I have eaten food or stayed in some sort of dwelling that was paid for in part by "tax supported" entities who supported me or my family. Now, I go to work each day on hiways that trhe state and federal government build and maintains. You know that each of us alone can't pay for all of that. I live 100 yards from the intracoastal waterway ( created and dug by a federal govt project) and 300 yards from the Atlantic ocean - who's beachfront is supported by state and federal renourishment funds. I have ridden on trains (federally funded money suck holes) traveled on free ferries across state waters. I use telephones and internet and tv/cable channels that are regulated and supported by federal laws and rules. My neighborhood is patrolled and protected by local police and county sheriffs who are tax funded. And the freedom of my country is in fact all due to tax supported/funded men and women of the Armed forces. So, who among us is not supported, assisted, or helped out is some way by taxes? Who can say that they live a life here in the good ole US without any tax funding or assistance in any shape, way or form. Now another question is this: Where does that tax come from? What kind of people? What do they do, what do they think, and what are their beliefs? What race, what religion ( or non religion), and what ethnicity? On that last point: All people pay those taxes, so therefore, the Government HAS AN OBLIGATION TO EQUALLY SUPPORT ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THOSE BELIEFS, RELIGIONS ( and non), AND ETHNICITIES! Otherwidse,it would be taxation without representation! And before you spew off about seperation of church and state, that only say the government will not establish a religion or respect only 1 of the many. The state cannot favor, nor disfavor religions , just as it cannot favor or disfavor non religions. The job of the government is to support ALL who pay taxes. Yeah...that's MY view on it! What's yours?

My pack doesn't use theme per se: We might kinda/sorta follow some ideas on a very basic level, but that's about it. Even within one ranking ..say Wolves for example - 3 different dens might do 3 different activities ina given night, but we plan ahead for things like field trips. For example: This week Den 1 might work on ropes and knots. Den 2 might cover flag raising. Den 3 might be making toolboxes. But we planned ahead earlier in the year so that next month, all the dens are themed around our visit to the local police or fire dept. But even as far as subject matter from the book: You might have a knot class just tying knots while another den may actually make a net or " Cub trap" out of rope. I bought a Cub Scout helps book last year, but it was more for sparking ideas than just following pre determined themes.

AWESOME! While covering CPR during our BALOO class, I , being a former EMT ( Emergency Medical Technition ) for the state of NC - mentioned something that made alot of the other students feel better. Alot were scared they might do something wrong. I toild them under the best of circumstances, people's chanced were limited. Doing CPR WRONG on a person who wasn't breathing and heart stopped was still better than doing nothing! Anw when done correctly, victem's ribs WILL still break . So at least try! But awesome job!

Okay, I made a few calls. Out CubMaster did not attend the meeting that night due to work obligations. I called her and explained how the meeting went. Seems nobody thought to bring up anything to our CM. Not saying they avoided it, just didn't think about it. The CM is going to check - just in case- to see if pack family rules are different than district or council. CM doesn't like the idea of it, but wants to make sure so there is an absolute and correct final word on it. After talking to a few other leaders, it turns out quite a few don't like the idea, but just didn't want to be the odd man out. Honestly, since this cost was to be covered by "passing the hat", I think it would have died for lack of funds. If nothing else, I personally did what I felt was the right thing to do and I did not back down or let others sway me. At the very least, I made the other leaders and committee know my views.

Sctdad, I personally think that is the bigger issue here. Since it is intended for cooking, I do not think it would violate any rules because it is not being used as a BEVERAGE. Common sense should say as long as everybody doesn't get drunk or high off of eating linguini, then no problem. But it's that whole "common sense" thing. Some over protective parents might totally freak out! Then a molehill becomes a mountain. But between you and me, I'd think any normal ranger probably NEEDS a nice shot of Jack or a couple cold ones after a week of scouts running around! LOL!

Phibbles, http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=268481 Different situation, same issue, same answer!

Phibbles, http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=268481

I agree with that line of thought.... You could mix your seasoning in with your wine, and even put chuncks of onion in it too. You might even use it only at the adult campsite - far away from the scouts. But if that "one " parent gets knowledge of you using it... there could be some serious headaches. Council gets involved. May not do anything, but before you know it, you get a bunch of parents in an uproar. Then like OGE says... "How would you defend yourself?"

Not that I really want to try, but how much cough syrup would you have to drink to get drunk? Could you actually drink that much without puking first? LOL!

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Thanks! I am not a sticler for every detail, and I do know that some rules are just plain stupid, but in this case... I don't like going against the rule. The more I think about it, the less I like it. Now, I wonder about something else: How may core values are we ditching by doing this? What parts ( if not the whole thing) are we ignoring in the scout promise, motto, and law of the pack? Now,I'll be honest: This bothers me for two reasons: 1)Because of everything I mentioned so far..and 2) The person who's idea it was is usually the one to put us to task of "doing the moral thing" or "setting a good example under God." I guess it's only important unless you want to do it, huh? Granted, I helped break a BB gun rule last year as a parent, but knowing now what I do, I won't make that mistake again. But this time, we know about it before hand and are plannuing on working around it? Nah, that's just not right! Well, everybody, thanks for your imput. Time to go and step on some toes!

THANKS! THis is just what I needed to hear for an issue in another forum!

We just had one of our pack leaders meetings a few days ago. WE talked about the usual stuff and also talked about our spring pack family campout. Lots of stuff was talked about and the details would bore you to death. One thing that was brought up by a den leader's wife was the possibility of renting 4 canoes and a registereed lifeguard during our April campout. The cost would be somewhere around $200 for 4 canoes and the lifeguard for 4 hours. I brought out the books and it showed that Cubs can not do this sort of thing at a non council or district sanctioned event. Well, it seemed like that was the end of the issue until the leader's wife insisted upon a vote. So this brought up arguements about the ramifications of such events, liability insurance and such. Now last year, we had BB guns and archery. I was just a parent then and had no idea this wasn't allowed. Alot of us didn't know ( or check). We let it go as "Ooops! Won't do that again!" This time we do know. Well, some how, it was determined that if we had parents sign a waiver that basically states: " I understand that this is not santioned by the BSA, "X" Council, "X" district, or Pack "X". Futrhermore, in the event of unforseen accident, I understand that the risk is "At your own risk" and that any of the formention groups are not liable for accident or injury." - That it would be an individual activity and not a pack activity. To cover the cost, a hat would be passed around. Okay, why do I feel like this is not just wrong, but trying to get around the system? What if those parents want beltloops for this? Why not a safe cracking beltloop too, or a "legal loophole" beltloop. I mean, if we can justify this, why not get waivers for skeet shooting and mortor detonation too? Maybe get a few 4 wheelers and a ski boat too. Hell, lets just set the woods on fire too...as long as they sign a waiver? Am I being too strict minded to have an issue with the canoes? I feel like the biggest message we might be telling the scouts is this: "You can go around any rule if you just apply yourself." And I feel like that is just the opposite of what scouting is supposed to be doing. Man, I can't wait until I'm a leader next year! (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Truer words have never been spoken! We have around 35 parents who "volunteer", but the funy thing is, only about 8 to 10 of us show up for each event or actually set up, clean up, cook, organize, etc. When it's time to meet and vote, ALL the volunteers show up and "decide" what's the best thing to do. A week later when we start, the 8 to 10 of us who ACTUALLY do it decide on what we are going to do. The ones who voted but never show up - somehow don't notice the changes. Granted, I'm in a pack instead of in a troop, but parents are parents. They are the same either way. If you wanted, register them as comittee members. There is no rule saying you can't have a car wash committee, aa auxillary equipment committee ( flags , banners, etc), cooking overview committee ( for adult meals at campouts) ,etc. You can make up all the committees you want so each adult has a position as a membver or even a chair if you like. Might even help to say committee chairs and leaders registration and recharter fees are covered by the troop , but general committee members have to pay half. Sounds crazy, I know, but those random committee people may one day step up and be your main help or main committee leaders.

Truer words have never been spoken! We have around 35 parents who "volunteer", but the funy thing is, only about 8 to 10 of us show up for each event or actually set up, clean up, cook, organize, etc. When it's time to meet and vote, ALL the volunteers show up and "decide" what's the best thing to do. A week later when we start, the 8 to 10 of us who ACTUALLY do it decide on what we are going to do. The ones who voted but never show up - somehow don't notice the changes. Granted, I'm in a pack instead of in a troop, but parents are parents. They are the same either way. If you wanted, register them as comittee members. There is no rule saying you can't have a car wash committee, aa auxillary equipment committee ( flags , banners, etc), cooking overview committee ( for adult meals at campouts) ,etc. You can make up all the committees you want so each adult has a position as a membver or even a chair if you like. Might even help to say committee chairs and leaders fees are covered by the troop , but general committee members have to pay half.

More true tales..... Back when I used to run fire/EMS/ water rescue: A fella runs out of cigarettes one day and doesn't have the money to buy another pack. So he gets creative and busts open a Lipton tea bag ( orange pekoe I think?), rolls it up in a rolling paper and lights up. When we got to his house, the sheriff;s dept already had an amonia caplet brokeen and under the guys nose. REode all the way to the hospital barely conscious. The guy ended up just making it!

evmori - You owe me a Mt dew and a new keyboard! I just spit my drink out! LMAO!

The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic BEVERAGES and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members. le Voyageur. Back in the day, I tried a few shots of Wild Irish Rose, Thunderbird and some other "hobo" drinks. We used to get a small bottle for parties. Everybody would chip in 2 or 3 dollars into the kitty, and then we would see who could hold down a shot for 5 minutes without puking. Nobody ever won. Now, I don't want to judge, but I don't suppose you use cough syrup as an alcoholic BEVERAGE do you? LOL! Granted, had we tried that, I would have won that bet many times!

T2Eagle...so what your saying is this: They have to pass the bil as is, then each side gets out their erasersand whiteout and says" Oops! When we said apples, we really meant oranges in paragraphes 34, 45, 68, 99, 326, 1232a, and sub sections A through ZZ!, so we are just gonna put in what we "really" meant to start with!" LOL! That would almost be funny if it wasn't true!

The moral aspects of it??? I dunnoh! I think "Killing for food, not sport" is a GREAT moral aspect! THings is, store bought meat is still killed. To say just because you didn't kill the meat that youare going to eat - is no different than saying "I didn't rob the guy who's money I am about to spend.....my friend did. The animal was still killed either way, You still eat it either way. The moralistic point here is that you do it only for food and not for sport or trophy. I teach my son that we do not keep any fish we do not plan to eat or give to other to eat. I love venison and deer jerky. I love rabbit and pheasant too. Even had some fried alligator. I don't have a problem with it. But I do not respect those who kill animals just for their antlers, hide or feet and leave the rest of the body untouched. And as mentioned, how about for survival? I never did see any wild Spam trees or Dinty Moore beef stew trees in any woods I've been to.