Scoutfish

I think that if I were in your position, I'd start out with troop #2 for at least the first year. Let the new scouts stick with the familiarty of each other as they transition into BOY scouts. They can learn together, lean on each other and still be part of a group. Then after they get used to what being a Boy Scout is about,and are comfortable with the program, they can always transfer at any time. Not saying they should switch troops, but that they can if they want to. Other than that, it sounds like 6 of one - half a dozen of the other. One program is bigger (thus less one on one) but is also more agressive with more chances or oppertunities. On the other hand, the other troop might be more personal and one on one, yet they do not have as many oppertunities. I'd say that both are great troops, and in turn boys can opt to go to whichever one suits their personal style.

Well, that's where we need to step up as leaders and parents! Because that same peer pressure is also saying that your not cool if you don't smoke or drink. Peer pressure says you are not cool if you actually learn in school and make good grades, honor roll, key club, etc.. That same peer pressure thinks it's okay to have teen sex and skip school. That same peer pressure is where most kids start smoking pot, huffing butane and doing exstacy at tghese "rave" parties. So the way I see it, at 13,14,and 15 years old, kids are starting their approach to adulthood and hopefully, making good, responsible choices. We as adults and as Scout Leaders need to work with them on taking pride in their uniforms just as much as we work with them on saying no to drugs, abstinance ,and studying their school work! Besides, the same peer pressure that makes fun of the uniform also makes fun of even being a scout. Why not just let all the scouts to drop out? Maybe wearing a uniform isn't taking drugs, but is a beginning to personal responsibilty. Just as you expect your child to dres nice for a wedding or funeral..why not dress for the occasion? Wearinga pair of jeans does not change how I would feel about the deceased, but there is a certain amount of "proper attire for te occasion" to be observed. And honestly, it's not about the uniform. It's about the solomness of the occasion. It shows the scout what a big deal these EBOR are. Just as one day, at a job interview, your entire potential career with this company is dependant on the impression you make in those 5 to 10 minutes. And just as how my or your clothing doesn't reflect my or your ability to handle your tasks, it is a big part of every interview. Again though, I would not demand any scout be in uniform if any adult wasn't required to meet that same expectation! If the Adults can wear jeans and polo's, so can the scouts! And I'm talking about adult leaders,Sm's, ASM, etc...not non scouting EBOR members fromthe comminity.

I hasven't heard of it either. Now,I don't mean this in a bad way..but that's the dumbest thing I've heard of in a while! I agree, it should be for boys like yours who founded a unit too. Matter of fact, they should get something betwen a founder bar and a veteran bar. Maybe have "Founded 2007" on it. (unless you meant 2006 - the year just changed!) Now, I have no issue celebrating 100 years of scouting, but there's alot to be said for those who didn't just jump in during the party. Lets look at those who were here before the party started.

I would like to think that a uniform wouldn't be a consideration of more than 1% of the entire scout. I'd like to think all scouts would be judged on their inner attitude. But having said that, if a scout is going to wear his uniform, he ought to wear it correctly. At our den(s) field trip (all Bear dens went) last Monday at a fire station, my son was the only one who had his class A shirt tucked in. The only one. Now, the fact that the shirts weren't tucked in didn't bother me so much as the fact that nobody's parents asked or told them to tuck them in. And realistically, we are talking Cubs here: Little two legged containers of obnoxious energy!. I really wouldn't expect those shirts to stay in very long anyways. My point? Not wearing a uniform isn't nearly as bad as wearing your uniform wrong, halfway or imncompletely. At least in MY opinion. Pride, and attention to detail and maturity should make you want to wear it right!

Beavah, I really not calling you out. I'm just looking for clarification. Show me why you came up with what you did because one day, i might be in your position or in a position where I have to make that judgement myself.

Calico. Thanks! I get that, This is my biggest concern here (on this site and in BSA in general) I'm pretty new to this. Actually, I'm not in this...I'm new to CUB Scouts. So I only have my son's Bear cub handbook to go by just like sooooo many new parents. This year, I became an ADL because I happen to volunteer as much time and put in as much effort as many of the DL's do and our pack could stand to use at least 4 more DL's. Anyways, as a new person, I have soooooo many questions about this and that. Questions that the books, trainings and stuff do not cover. So what is probably the best thing to do for information in the "real world" of scouting? Ask experienced and current scout leaders. And by scout leaders , I mean any adult leader position wether CM,SM ADL or ASM. But as I am getting used to this site...I notice something: This SM with 20 years experience is argueing with another SM with 23 years of experience about what a policy (assuming it is a policy and not a guidline) means. So from my standpoint, I can take training in every single class BSA offers, but chances are good, that I might still not know what is Policy, guidline, actual full ruling or just "in the spirit of" . Now imagine a parent who is just a parent. A parent who is not a DL, ADL,SL, SM or COR on a committee. If they are not sure of something, where do they go to for help? Either in here or to their pack/troop leadership. But we already know that there are at least 2 sides ( if not 3 or 4)to almost every rule written. EBOR for example: Is a uniform requirement an added requirement or just expecting a scout to live within the spirit of scouting, which is a requirement if I read it right? I believe that if you follow the core values, you just about have to wear the uniform. So okay, it's really about the indescrepencies, but somewhere,at sometime, we all have to decide which way to lean. As a new person,I might have my CM say lean this way, because the rule means this. So then I go out, and as a DL next year, set up a plan and even go out and buy materials for that plan, only to have the ACM say : "Hey wait a minute there buddy! You are way out of line!" Now again,I'm new so I have not the experience to know who is right. How do I decide which way to go? The descrepancies in the book are no more common than the descrepancies of the experienced leaders who argue with each other! Or do I do like alot of parents and just say forget it! This isn't worth the trouble and drama! Okay, I'm not. I'm already planning the basics of how I will do it, I just have to get my Webelos leader training to see what it is I will be doing the way I'm gonna do it!

I thought it was funny! Sometimes we have to just step back and laugh at ourselves. Okay, the film wasn't so much about boyscouts but what they stood for. And even in that respect, it'wasn't so much what BSA stands for, but America itself. This was a satire of government in general. Big brother becoming to strong, too powerful. Becoming a socialist state. Not sure if you ever saw The Last Boy Scout. Bruce Willis was in it, He was not a Boy Scout. But he stood up against bad guys and was for right and wrong, even thoughhe had less than God like ways of doing things. There was some "Scarey Movie/Police Academy/Hot Shots/National Lampoon's Vacation " to it too. Just flat out slap stick humor. A little bit of " V for Vendetta " in it too. Basically, this was an ANTI- Too Powerful Government movie, and had a ALL american hero for a hero.... A Boy Scout! An American Ideals Boy Scout! You know...Captain America, Andy Griffith,Norman Rockwell, Pledge of Allegiance, Baseball and Apple pie!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Beavah..I have to respectfully completely disagree with something you said: > And here's why: I copy and pasted that page, meaning I did not write a single word of it. It clearly states that it is official Policy. Nowhere does it say guidline, or suggestion. It says "Official Policy". So, I'm wondering how can you say that it is a guidline and not POLICY? NOw, the very last part of my post was that I hope uniforms are considered no more than 1% of the total scout. My biggets point was to say the EBOR should follow the same expectations they put on a scout. But back to guidline VS policy. Again, this is copy and paste, Not me typing, mis typing or titling it myself. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx "Age Guidelines The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members' participation in camping activities: Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." So, again, something is wrong here. I have been told on many occasions (to the point I have passed it along also) that DEN LEVEL CAMPING IS NOT ALLOWED! BECAUSE OF BSA POLICY Yet... BSA has clearly and consicely labeled it as a "guidline". They did, not me. Well, from my position , it looks like people tend to change policy into guidlines, and guidlines into policy depending on wether they agree them or not. Another point: The issue I have right here and right now is this: So I have to follow policy, but only as long as I like it? If I can't seem to make the policy work, I can just do whatever? Now normally, If I was to write a post about any sort of question , such as asking what anybody else did about ..say,, geting enough parents to help with a campout..at least half of the answers will qoute some policy says and some will say " Go get some training, read your books, and also take BALOO. Then somebody will say :"Recruit some parents!" (Like I never thought of that!)" Great, but what about getting parents invoiolved? Now in that specific example, it was mention that I get training, Training in what? BALOO? But what if BALOO policy just doesn't work for me? Well, BALOO is just a guidline right? Again, I totaly agree with you on most of the uniform situation and how practicable it is. I'd rather each boy wear something totally different and have fun and learn something than just look good. But on everything else..well, I neither agree nor disagree. Actually, I'm just flat out confused. One minute I am told I have to strictly stick to rule # such and such, but in the next post, the older, experienced (read those who know better) Scout leaders say that they won't follow rule # such and so because it doesn't really mean anything. So as person new to scouting, I can just about sum up the biggest problems in scouting at the leadership level and Cub/Boy scout level with rules: Everybody wants rules and policy so everything is clear. They want the rules so they can say :"This is why you have to listen to what I say!" "This is why we are doing, what we are doing, the way we are doing it!" Unless of course..that leader/troop/pack/den/patrol doesn't like the rule. Then the rule doesn't matter, isn't important, or it's just a guidline and not really policy. So as far as I can tell, EBOR can not add any requirements , unless they don't like that rule, in which case, it's really just a guidline. Then they can add all they want as long as it works for them. See what I mean? I'm not calling you out so much as calling out discrepancies across the board. I'm just asking how you can justify calling - what is clearly stated as POLICY and a rule by BSA themselves - only a guidline. Explain it to me. I'm not argueing with you, I'm just looking for an honest answer here. And you know, I might totally agree with you too!. (This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I guess BSA doesn't mention anything about that do they? I suppose it's different for non uniformed members. But in that instance, I'd like to think they wouldn't be so braise to mention uniforms, or at the very least wear a somewhat dressy or at least casual/dress shirt and nice slacks. At the least that is,. Preferribly a dress shirt with tie. I wouldn't require a coat no more than I'd require a scout to wear a dress coat.

I agree, It looks as though he doesn't care about,or doesn't want anybody to know he holds that POR. As for sewing ...even if it was to hard, scout too lazy, etc..., you can get a patch sewed on by almost any seamstress/ tailor for a few dollars!

How do you : A) Keep your nechechief from going flat where its rolled up? B) Keep the slider tight? See, I layed mine on the counter, rolled it up all but 6" and put it on my neck (under my collar) and put the slider in place. Well,I'm not too concerened that the part of the neckerchief that goes around my neck is flat. It fits better that way. but once it goes through my slider, I'd like to have the "rolled" look, not flat. AS for the slider, well, it fit nice and snug against the necker at first , but after time, loses it's grip. Sure, the necker being flat isn't a help at all. So what can I do about this? Any tips I should know? Fabric tape glued to inside necker maybe? Thin foam strips inside the rolled up part of the necker? Any tips you give...I'm going to pass along because at least 1 of our cubs loses a slider every week. I'm surprised I haven't lost mine too!

Touche' Basement...Touche' Well, I guess our pack has a requirement too! WQe have been requiring all Cub Scouts and their leaders to recite the Promise, the Motto AND The Pledge of Allegiance too!....and I didn't even realize it even though I participate in it every time! OUCH! Good call Basement, good call!

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/01.aspx Official Policy The Boy Scouts of America has always been a uniformed body. Its uniforms help to create a sense of belonging. They symbolize character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. Wearing a uniform gives youth and adult members a sense of identification and commitment. Personal equality. The uniform represents a democratic idea of equality; bringing people of different racial, economic, religious, national, ethnic, political, and geographical backgrounds together in the Scouting tradition. Identification. The uniform identifies youth and adult members of the Boy Scouts of America, visible as a force for good in the community. When properly and smartly worn, the uniform can build good unit spirit. When worn on the correct occasions, it can attract new members. Achievement. The uniform shows the wearer's activity, responsibility, and achievement. What each youth or adult member has accomplished with program opportunities can be recognized by the insignia worn on the uniform. Personal commitment. The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. The uniform encourages them to take Scouting seriously because of the investment in uniforms by parents of youths and by adults. The uniform is a way of making visible members' commitment to a belief in God, loyalty to country, and helping others at all times. The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions. The Rules and Regulations and policy. The following pages contain our uniform policy as taken from the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. The chapters contain applications of the regulations to each program area. Neither the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America through its Program Group Committee. Now, I do not claim to have intimate knowledge of, nor a working relationship with BOY Scout policy. But I know how to read! I also know that if you were to get out 5 different current books and manuals and open them to related subject pages..they all might say , or at least word differently - BSA's policy on many different things. But looking at the above rules, and reading what each one says about BSA and uniforms - I'm not so sure that requiring a scout to wear a uniform for a EBOR, BOR or ANY Scouting function is actually an ADDED requirement. Looking at different rules listed above, specifically: "AHIEVEMENT: The uniform shows the wearer's activity, responsibility, and achievement." "PERSOAL COMMITMENT: The uniform is a constant reminder to all Tiger Cubs, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts, Venturers, and adults of their commitment to the ideals and purpose of the Boy Scouts of America. " So I can see wearing one's uniform as a sign of commitments and living the ideals of scouting, or other wise living in the Spirit of Scouting- which is a staple and requirement of being a scout and advancing. *******BUT********** "The leaders of Scoutingboth volunteer and professionalpromote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions." Is the EBOR or BOR less suitable than any other occasion? So...while I see it within the rights of an EBOR to have a scout wear his uniform as symbol of commitment, maturity and Scout Spirit, and not as an added requirement........ I also see that if that same EBOR, BOR , or any body of leadership does not follow the exact same policy expected from or of any scout , they too are not living within the Spirit of Scouting and are not committing to the ideals and purpose of scouting ! In other words, if the EBOR doesn't wear the FULL uniform, they have no rights to call out or question a scout on his lack of FULL uniform. To do so will only confirm that leader(s) of being a hippocrit! My opinion on uniforms themself? The uniform is just that. It is not the scout, nor does it reflect the total of a scout. It's just a very small part of a person and who they are. Some of the coolest kindest caring people I know look like hippies and dress like thugs and bikers. But they volunteer and give with their hearts every day. I also see clean cut, shaven, well dressed people steal, murder and defraud others all the time too. How you are dressed isn't the ONLY indicator of what or who you are. While I have always taken pride in wearing every uniform I have owned, is it not possible I put too much emphasis on outward appearances and not my true inner spirit? Could I be the well dressed person who defrauds? Wouldn't it be better to be the dressed like a biker guy who gives with his heart? So, it is my feelings that an EBOR is not out of line by asking a scout to wear his uniform (as long as they follow suit) , but at the same time, I hope they appraise it at no more than 1% of the scouts total personality!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I have sent a couple in the last few weeks. I sent one to Beavah, Old Grey Eagle and Scoutdad. I didn't specifically ask for any replies sooo.... 1) They read it but didn't reply since I didn't ask. 2) They readi and ignored it or luaghes at it (take your pick) 3) I screwed it up. I did just finally figure out how to do a spin off last night or 4) Somebody broke the Pm feature!

The BOR didn't start because the scout didn't wear the uniform that was added to the requirements. As a side issue though, I would ask the scout what a full uniform consisted of. I mean, I wouldn't cancel the BOR, but I would ask: "If you were going to put your uniform on, why not ALL of it?" Find out why just the shirt was okay, and why not his SPL patch, Star Rank,and sash?

DYB, We may actually be arguing the same point here, but with different words Toe may toe.....tah mah toe No doubt you have to plan something, I do not mean just show up and do whatever strikes you first. Okay,I was vague on one thing: "Let's just go camp, have fun and just do stuff that is fun just for the sake of it doesn't matter for anything!" On that part, I meant it wasn't purposely and specifically aimed at getting a badge, Arrow Point etc.. As far as learning: 3 legged races - would be both physical exercise, and learning teamwork and coordination. Telling jokes - a talent or even biggest nastiest burp with teach you (or at least give you experience) standing up in front of people and crowds. Kinda shows you to perservere even when you are pretty nervous. Blindfolded and listening to team mate #3 to guide you: again team work, but also trust. Horseshoe contest: well it's pretty much simple competition, but you also use hand-eye coordination, physical skill, honing you aim, and also is a great place to show good sportsmanship. When I said you might not understand, I meant that I wasn't saying to ditch planning, learning, or scoutlike behavior but saying that planning, learning, and scoutlike behavior do not have to include or revolve around merit badges, pins, belt loops, or anything that might be done in a den meeting! My view of life is that anything can be a learning experience it you let it!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I think I might just print that out and tape it to every scoutbook, manual, notebook ad bag I have. I might print it out for every parent too! That is gonna be my new ....what do you call it?...motivational poster? Something like that! LOL!

DANG! Don't you just hate when what your thinking doesn't quite come out right when you type it? "Overplanning" : I mean determining before hand what activities you will do based on what you think certain scouts might need. For example :Even though activity A is more fun to the Cubs and they always seem to enjoy it more...you plan activity B and C because they can get new badges = or pins they don't have. But it will be tight and close. If we cut lunch and free time back by an hour, then we will have just enough time to get activities B and C in. That's what I mean by overplanning. At least, in my head! LOL! Maybe you understand what I mean!

Twocub, DYB Now,I get the scouting program. I understand it. But you missed my point: I'm talking Pack FAMILY campouts. They are campouts and not den meetings. My first point was what I and you see in here alot the past few weeks: people asking "What can I do this yar at FAMILY camp because everybody is tired of our usual program. Now this is family, meaning that brothers AND sisters who are not Cub will be there too. Do they need to work on merit badge activities? Is the pack gonna give them a badge too? And overplanning every little detail was completely about the campout too, not the rest of the scouting program. See, there is a big difference between a 1 hr den meeting vs a full day or even weekend of "fun" activities. It's one thing to plan for an hour, but what if a kid gets tired of "Structured fun"? Do you tell him "Scouts with true scout spirit pretend like they are having fun"? Come on....this is a family campout by a group of folks who happen to be in the same den. They happen to be scouts. But having said that, "POINTLESS FUN" doesn't mean vandalism or commiting a crime. Matter ofvfact, the first copule examples of "pointless fun" showed team work, the ability to laugh at yourself , speak/perform in front of crowds and physical activity. Now I bet you could find a way that the core values fit into that without even breaking a sweat! No as for overplannimng...I saw some overplanning at our last campot. The parents and leaders even planned exactly how the cubs would react and how much fun they should have. but guess what...Nobody told the cubs they were supposed to have X amount of fun and react in X amount of enthusiasm. Some kids went fishing, some played flag football. Some read their scout books. That's what they did in their down time. And they had fun in their down time. Again, I just want to point out that this isn't a den meeting, it's a pack FAMILY campout. Or let me say it this way: I saw several responces in another blog about how Scouting was supposed to be the exact polar opposite of school. Yet, it sounds like some people are trying to make the campouts school - but just in the woods. Look, all I'm saying is this: Not every function has to be within certain parameters. And the Core Vaules should be applied to anything and everything in life, not just scheduled scout activities. The only Core Values that may not be observed during my examples of a campout are Citizenship and Honesty. But I really don't see them practiced in whittling, fishing, archery, BB gun shooting, hiking or many other activities. But then again, CITIZENSHIP is showed at an opening and closing ceremony such as colors ceremonies and flag raisings. And HONESTY sounds like something that would be practiced 24/7 no matter if its a campout, den/pack meeting , at home, or school. So what's the problem concerning the 12 core values?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Tell the boy that scouting is kinda like video games. You just don't go straight to the finallevel - rather you start at the lowest level and work your way up. Ask him if he ever plaid a flying game where fitrst you had to demonstrate the ability to control your aircraft. Then you had to perform a few manuevers. Then you flew a mission only to identify friend or foe. Then if you continueously pass each of those levels , you get to fly in combat or in this case...camping! That makes sense?

Well, I know there is not a "one size fits all" answer. Same with me at work, but "MOST" of the time is more right. In case your wondering, I have no intentions of becoming a SM or ASM. I am a ADL now, will be a Webelos leader next year and the year after. Then I will stick with the Cubs wherever I can be best utilized. I figure I have worked with my son since he was a Wolf and will work with him through WI and WII. By the time he is a SCOUT, it will also be time for me to step back, cut the strings and let him do his own thing. I'll have the rest of my life to give any advice he asks for and some he doesn't ask for, but needs. But as a Scout and a kid, he ought to have some seperation and room to breath. I mean, he can't spread his wings if I'm doing all the flying right? So, again,in case you were wondering, I have no plas to be a SM or ASM..I was just curious.

So, after reading about the differences here and there between CUB Scouting and BOY Scouting...I'm just curious: What - in YOUR OPINION makes a better Scout Master or ASM: A former DL, CM, ACM, or just a new parent or adult leader who had no position( but is properly trained)? On the surface, I would want to think a former Cub leader of some sort - wether CM, ACM or a DL would be better.. But after reading in this site about the different styles , procedures and programs..I am almost inclined to think a Non Cub experienced person might be better. Why? Because in my experience as a former fire fighter and in my current position at work... I have learned that sometimes it easier to train a new person from scratch than to re-train a person who is set in their different ways. Your more experienced SCOUT thoughts here!

That sounds like a great idea! Wether formal or just proper manners while dinning in public. Don't know about you, but In hate going places where a person at another table is sooo obnoxiously loud on their cell phone, it dominates YOUR conversation too! But I like the formal thing. Tell the guys they can use it during prom one day.

Stupid computer! It irks me! LOL! Double posted for some reason.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Beavah, I may be wrong, but it sounds like one of her sons as well as 4 other Scouts are serving in multiple POR's at the same time. meanwhile, there are several scouts who are not able to serve any POR because the others have already taken the positions. Might be ( but not specifically saying these exact particular positions) that The SPL, PL, ASPL and DC could be the same scout.