qwazse

Good 'nuff for government work. Keep in mind the further north, the closer the longitude lines will be. That "wee extra" can amount several seconds. Usually not a problem for orienteering courses. For some geocaches, 40 feet off can yield a "did not find". For settling land disputes or staying out of Iran, it won't hold up in court. If you need to ensure that level of precision, there are plastic orienteering templates for various scales (including 1:2400) that include a degree longitude conversion symbol (it look's sort of like a curved funnel) for every degree lattitude. First place I'd look for them is an military surplus store. Lacking a template, my approach: with a yard/meter stick or tape measure, I would take the measurment from the edge (the one with the lowest longitude) of the map to my PoI, divide it by the measurment between the map edges at that lattitude, multiply by 7.5', and add the product to the lowest longitude on the map. Repeat for lattitude. What's nice about this method, is it works well if you are using a scaled down map that you downloaded from USGS.gov. And, it doesn't matter what measurment system your stick has marked on it (as long as the ticks are evenly spaced!). Needless to say, the finer your stick, the more accurate you will be. Obviously, because keeping things "square" can be a hassle, you can grid things out at the 2.5' hashes, I just don't like marking maps. I do write my calculations in the margin. This includes a couple of ticks representing my estimated error of measurement. (E.g. 1/8 inch, 1/16th inch, 1 millimeter.) It's really handy to know how far off you can be, when you hit that mark with the GPS. P.S. (from the school of hard knocks) - Once you write your calcs, have your buddy check them for errors!(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I have to sleep tonight, so there is NO WAY I'm following that link. Besides, when it comes to losers-of-bets-to-scouts these old eyes have seen too much ... But from the bottom of my heart on behalf of those boys: THANK YOU. There's one more pack who knows their CM loves them.

I have a boy with asbergers too (my son's best friend). And your right, my son would not make him sing for his stuff -- alone. But my son watches him like a hawk at camp and makes sure he tidies up. The boy has wanted to quit several times, and every time he as emphasized that it wasn't the other boys. It was primarily the bugs. He admitted he didn't like work. We told him that we weren't going to compensate for that. And sometimes he was very bitter about actions of other boys, yet he would find it in his heart to forgive them. But those bugs really annoyed him. He left summer camp mid-week, but unlike most homesick boys he was proud he made it that far and can't wait for the scouting year to start again. He's looking forward to those winter campouts! So I don't think it's "no big deal." But I'm not going to minimize the importance of picking up after yourself just because this one boy will require his buddies to step up and sing with him.

What changed with the Imperial slave trade was Wilberforce read his Bible and did what it said. Where not some scribes meticulously transcribing their people's encounter over centuries with what seems to have been a very external yet unnervingly personal force, we may very well have been importing servants from our vanquished enemies today. Our sons would then bring their children to scout meetings to sing for unclaimed equipment! (There would probably be paperwork to file if an SM made the son of a slave owner sing for his pen-knife.) Now was Wilberforce responding to the morality of humans, or of God? His writings tell us what *he* thought, yet you are more than welcome to come up with more material causes. Regardless, that many men attribute their strength to do great things (somehow in opposition to the madness around them) to the work of The Spirit, that in itself is a cause for reverence. I guess that means I'm siding with the Rabbi on that one.

Scoutfish, those medal slides and cubs just don't mix. Have your cubs make their own slides ASPAP! (Each den could have a contest.) The easiest one in my opinion is a simple Turk's head out of leather thong. Grips, lightweight, can be made distinctive with beads and such, and cheaply replaced. Just sayin' there's nothin' in the book requiring the metal slide. And if someone tells you there is you have a right to take their uniform police card and cut it in two. Fun for every one.

OGE's hurt from the snipe hunt was not just about the deception. There was abandonment as well. And the next time the same kid pulled a simpler stunt, that abandonment comes into the equation. He couldn't get past that to see his an opportunity to meet boys from all the other units at camp. How does the "humiliation" of singing help a boy become a better scout? Well, he gets an opportunity to share in the humiliation the leaders feel when they have a site with stuff littered around. He might for the first time in his life begin to understand how bad it may make mom feel to have to clean up after everyone with no thanks from anyone. And he is spared the humility of me dumping my stuff on his front yard and him having to pick it up.

BP, I don't thinks it's always groups. I think some well-meaning individuals who find solace in a certain form of piety will raise concerns. Some of them, you could almost figure out their favorite radio show, but others just call things at face value and don't realize that snap judgements are often the wrong ones. Usually if you point out that ceremonies were chosen in a way not to offend Native Americans (e.g. they avoid calling on gods an actor might not believe in) they can meet you halfway. That means inviting them to observe how things are done and explaining why things are the way they are.

There's one more kind of wild, and if you have youth (or adults) with issues around partying, etc ... you will want to think long and hard about Seabase, look over their website, and call them about the options you're interested in. There are plenty of resorts, etc ..., and your time ashore depends on the adventure you choose. This is very true in the Bahamas, where each day scouts are welcome to use local facilities on each island. At one stop, my wife was amused when, while the bartender was pouring ice in my nalgene, a lady beside me turned and asked "How much do you want to forget?" (It was clear she was trying hard to forget something.) The locals know what's expected of scouts. There's no law saying they can't serve them alcohol, but it will be on the radio that evening, and as soon as captain hear's about it, you can bet you'll be off your boat on the next flight home. Our contingent was very respectful and disciplined. (We all know how useful that is.) But obviously, with some kids you may want to select a more isolated adventure!

Ah, but TT made a practical tweak. And using the EDGE method, enabled his boys to follow it. Since that method doesn't require reading any reference, in a couple years the boys may never know their doing things differently! Regardless, you get the "super achiever" parents. Even doing it "by the book", I still hear a little of "so-and-so" needs to be APL/PL/ASPL/whatever. I'm not sure there is any good solution but to hold the boys to their decisions and work with them to smooth out the rough spots. Listen at the SM conferences for the upper ranks. Ask about the quality of your election process. If a boy suggests trying something different, you may want to give it a go.

If you sign on as outings chair, the really cleaver thing to do is ask one of your parents "I don't think I can make the next committee meeting, would you mind going and taking notes for me? You can breif the folks planning outings when we meet for coffee next week at ..." This works well if you do have parents who can spare the time, but are afraid of taking that "leadership risk." It doesn't work so well if you have parents that are pulling double shifts just to make ends meet.

And what of that boy who left his belongings? He who has no respect for his environs, who cares little who for the goods his parents paid dearly for, who expects his fellow scouts and scouters to clean up his leavings as though they were his chaimbermaids? He has humilitated his own troop. No doubt at home he expects his mother to abase herself, and by his repeated or occasional action (or, rather, inaction) broken her to his slothfull will. It is the likes of him who make the self-appointed gaurdians of wilderness recreation areas cringe when they see a trailer with the fleur-de-lis pull up to a trailhead. That make them say, "Wonder what 'goodies' we'll find on the trail Sunday afternoon!" Will I use harsh words toward this boy? Not at all. Will I cut him off from our unit? Nay! Beatings? Heaven forbid! A fine? Please, no more paperwork! Rather, I will have him join in the humility that we all should should feel when we realise that our material wants, along with our inability to manage them, have rendered us less than perfect. And that, my friends, is what singing has to do with leaving your site less ordered than when you found it.

As mentioned in the other thread. We sing. What I didn't explain: If a boy's shy, the SPL and PL's will join him (half the time, they have to sing for stuff anyway). Usually there are several items, and the boys line up together. Our crew doesn't meet as frequently, and they do a lot of organizing online, so I was toying with making venturers post a Youtube of them singing to claim the stuff they left in my van. But the president wisely nixed that one!

Hey I'm an old crow! One year old, that is. We'd line up after the Antelopes, focused and determined. Ready to ... Ohh, look, a shiny!

Have your son write the publisher. That'll make sure the correction gets made in the next printing. It's also a good experience to get a note back from the editor. Most do reply to these sort of things.

One would do well to think of the HA bases as training centers. They are pretty tightly controlled environments. You can find much wilder for much fewer $$, but you need more conditioning and team building to enjoy it to the fullest. For example, I asked our captain at Seabase Bahamas if he ever hosted any Sea Scouts. He hadn't. That made sense to me after a little. Being on someone else's boat following someone else's well refined float plan is not something a successful sea scout ship would be interested in. Certainly NT is the most isolated, if that's what you mean by wild. And most folks tell me Philmont is probably the most physically exerting. That said, eagle rays with 15 foot tails don't just rise up in front of you out of the deep in the boundary waters. And, you ain't dodging coral scrapes and sea nettles to harvest conch in the rockies!

Who is this "we" you speak of? Our troop PLC sets the dress code. If a scout comes to them about something that should change, they consider it. The SM only steps in if it's a flagrant deviation from the National norm (e.g. bermuda shorts with the tan shirt). Our crew ... well, let's not even go there.

We sing for stuff (as individuals or in groups) all the time. In fact, I've gotten so good at it the boys just give me my stuff back and sometimes "forget" to ask me to sing. I would never call that hazing. Why? It demeans what true victims of hazing have had to endure.

"Blinders" are in the eye of the beholder. But I've seen more folks get a grip on their own faith as I've been able to spell out my own. Anyway, seems that Merlyn finds it hypocritical that we might give a youth 7 years to decide if the Statement of Religious Principle is not for him, and we'd drum an adult out instantly. My approach is a matter of pure practicality. Some American boys change their religion as often as they do their underwear. Imagine the scenario: Monday (at scoutmaster conference): "I'm and atheist." "Okay turn in your membership card, and I don't want to see you in that uniform." Tuesday (after his buddy talks to him): "I believe in God now." "Okay here's your card back. Wear your uni if you want." Wednesday (after his girlfriend jilts him): "That's it, there's no God" "Give me your card. And take off the uniform." Thursday (when he remembers about the campout this weekend): "What was that 'sum of stuff' line that Mr. Kudu stuck me with? That's my higher power now." "Here's the permission slip, get your folks' signature..." Friday (after he hears me slip a cuss word about paperwork): "Ya know, if you don't take it seriously, then I'm not ..." "But we just bought all the food for the weekend. Now go find me a believer to take your place!" There's no way on Monday that I can tell if a boy will be a strident unbeliever or more like the kid above. So do I buy into that roller coaster in some feeble attempt to "keep a pure flock" of scouts? Or do I shut my mouth and give the boys the time and space to grow into their belief while watching me try to sort out mine? Well *my* religion says I gotta let the tares grow up among the wheat until I or anyone else can tell them apart. So that's my plan. Sorry, I didn't write the rules (nor did the BSA) ...(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I'm no universalist, by any stretch of imagination. But, I know that for many post-moderns (i.e., nearly all of our boys), quoting verses is idle story time. Your religion might as well be another walk-through of a video game. In that sense an animist may very well "get it" better than some text-parsing theologian. But, regardless of where you are on that spectrum ... *You* are the best scripture a boy may ever read. How you act, not what you say, will help him determine if this reverent thing is all it's cracked up to be.

OGE, the point is that God (now matter how generally we define it) is a distinctly human construct. The boy's puppy isn't concerned about it at all. So, he's come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to be either. We want to show him that other people think differently. Now we can argue 'till we're blue in the face about that construct coming from external or internal sources -- wether it's personal or impersonal. (I tend to believe, after these few years of living, that it's external and quite personal. Some of my psychologist colleagues say otherwise.) So, to rephrase Kudu (a foolish thing to do indeed), say to the boy "come hike with us". On the hike, point out the few things that really amaze you. At the end of the day, explain (in a couple of scentences) why the things your saw give you a higher regard for the God you worship. Give the boys a chance to chime in -- there may be a boy who's particularly good at that sort of thing. Sure, maybe quoting Spinoza would be the scholarly thing to do. I don't think it's essential. As the boy grows he may want to know why nearly all of humanity buys into this higher power thing, but for now he's focused on "what's in it for me?" The out-of-doors is the best tool for dulling narcissim that I have ever seen. Lather - rinse - repeat. More outings, less talk. MattR - for some questions, there's no point in answering with words.

While we're talking $$'s here, if you think the price for you to go is prohibitive, you may want to consider staying at home and sponsoring a young man or woman to serve as staff or adult leaders. (I knew two who went last year, one as an ASM and the other as a climbing instructor, they did awesome work and had a great time.) Jambo fees are half for 16 to 25 year old volunteers, but even that can be prohibitive for a college kid or graduate student. You were just toying with going yourself. Maybe you know a young person who would be a great volunteer for an event like this. He or she might do you the favor of checking in on your son every now and then. All they might need is a little encouragement on the financial end. And he or she would be less likely to load their uni with knots making them look like 3rd world dictators!

Your expenses as an essential leader may be considered a charitable contribution. This includes fees, travel required to get to the event, and uniforms that are expressely purposed for the organization. Your kid's expensenses are not. A contribution you make to your chartered organization so that other kids can go to the event may be. Depends on the nature of your chartered organization and how they account for stuff.

I think with younger kids you want to start with the dictionary definition. I could care less if your statement of faith matches mine, if you are generally disrespectful at anyone's religion (or lack thereof), that needs to change. If the kid can handle "respecting the religion of others" for now (e.g., not being disruptive in church if he has to go, not teasing his friends or enemies over matters of faith), that's a start for Tenderfoot. You do need to inform the parents about the discussion, and the expectation in scouting is that as the boy matures his opinion will grow (however nebulous) towards respecting a deity. And it needs to be clear that advancement to Eagle depends on him being able to describe that in his own terms.

I'm now at the fish-or-cut-bait point of stepping in and disallowing some of the appointments or not. Fish. (I think. If by that you're meaning work with the boys appointed.) In a month have the SPL pull up any lines that aren't "hitting." Recently the SM and I had to admit to the committee "The popular boy - not the best leader - got elected SPL. As much as we don't like it, we'll deal with it." It was a risk because some parents of younger scouts were in the room. We had already lost a few boys because parents didn't appreciate our willingness to let this youth have the reigns. (They formed a new troop, so we didn't feel all that bad about it.) But, the parents in the room got that some day it may be their boy about whom everyone is having doubts. Like Stosh said, the more mature boys will find ways to serve. For example, one boy planned our spring backpacking trip for us -- including any necessary training and equipment procurement. No instructor's patch required. But like us, you or a tactful ASM will probably want to have a sit-down with parents to explain the challenges ahead.

I love pulling the "not my job card" on upset absentee leaders! SP's right. I know folks whose Pack treasuries "disappeared". A little wisdom and accountability is in order. Point is, you want to encourage the old guard to stick around, so thank them for jumping on this because even if the kids don't appreciate it, it's good to know that responsible people care about these boys $$'s! Encourage them that even though it may take a little more of their time, helping train these young parents will pay off in the long run.