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All's good if Socratic is really your style. If not, there's no harm in being more direct like 2C suggests. After "laying out the charges" I can think of two approaches: Don't shut the door on the kid advancing. Just ask him, "Are you sure you want to go before a 1st class BOR next week? Or do you think you should give it another month so your scout spirit -- especially when it comes to obedient and courteous -- could shine through?" Put it on his honor like he claims at every meeting's opening. Remind the boy that he can always ask you or the ASM if he's doing a better job. Call it an "SMC on the fly!" In this case, the BOR would include a discussion of the problems and ask what he changed, or what he's resolved to do from now on, to now be worthy his rank. If you must be a gate-keeper (and from this side of the net it's hard to tell). Give him some concrete tasks. The most important thing is that he goes and apologizes to the PL and APL for making their job harder than it needed to be. If there's some other reconciling to do (like demonstrating cheerfulness about the patrol name/yell) you can give him a list, but don't overwhelm the kid. You tell him as soon as that's done, y'all can move on. In this case, the BOR would not bring any of this up with the kid. Obviously, you can combine the two. P.S. - Does he know he left his book in your car?

I'm having a hard time remembering my SPL days, but I think I was "Mini SM" by virtue of the pleasure I got helping younger scouts. I wasn't about to be bothered by an organizational chart that put some PLs between me and the rest of the troop. I also loved to hear myself talk, so pontificating in front of the entire troop would have suited me. I've seen all three among the SPLs in our troop. I don't think I favor any one style. But I think if we can put some categories out there - ones that boys know about from having a few years of scouting under their belt, we might be better able to help a boy reflect on his own leadership style.

Noooooooooo!

We do share some values. If you find yourself wandering on your own in he wide world, the hospitality of an Iranian national is possibly the warmest you'll ever receive. An the notion that Israel, for it's Godlessness and injustice to foreigners, would be overrun by eastern invaders has its origins in the Old Testament, not the Koran. We are talking about fallen empires that the Western world treats as little more than a backwater billage. The man is playing on a very ancient theme. He needs his base to continue to feel the rejection of "the Western upstarts", but he also needs a little empathy from the West.

Unfortunately, having experienced a sudden tragic loss of one of our boys, I can "ditto" what Beav said. It might only be one or two kids that need professional counseling, but your SE, if he's had the heads up that your troop was on the scene, should be able to "fast track" that. (Without our council staff's intervention, one of our boys would have had to wait an additional 4 weeks to see a counselor!) There might be someone qualified to come talk to parents and help them be on the look-out for signs of post traumatic stress disorder. Stuff like that where you might think "We'll muddle through on our own." or "We didn't bear the brunt of it, so we don't need/deserve any help." That's where keeping your pros in the loop can actually pay off. A lot of the "talking it out" is for the parents. We had the boys get together the day after. They mostly laughed and played games while us old folks met upstairs and shed a few tears and shared some worries. You'll find that a year from now there may be a parent who doesn't want your troop to go back to that trail. If adults manage to talk that through in advance, it might help folks accept emotions that might re-surge down the road. Of course the boy's own troop will have the worst time of it. Getting your troop together might help you all figure out the best way to extend them your sympathies. Anyway, we'll be praying for y'all.

PL of PLs: takes cue from SM, mainly directs the leadership core of the troop. E.g., he will fill out a duty roster with patrol names, put it someplace central, make sure PLs get it done. Gets on them pretty quickly when something isn't happening as expected. Mini SM: gets to know each of the boys. Works with them as individuals. E.g., he will fill out a duty roster, and announce it to the entire troop at morning flag. Expects boys to work as a collective. Sees patrols as merely convenient groupings. Mini Advisor: trains the PLs but otherwise hands off. E.g., he'll hold a leadership cracker barrel, put a blank duty roster on the table and ask the PLs to sort out who would do what when. He might help the PL with a "tough case", but otherwise will make some suggestions on how to handle things and leave it up to the Patrol to figure out the best course. Those are the three I can think of. Just thought it would be neat to compare notes. What makes yours one way or the other. Is age, character, troop size, or troop culture your driving factor? If a boy is very much one type, how much effort do you put into helping him change?

Our district tried a "new scout orientation" Saturday program for a couple of years. But really, the best new scout reference I can think of is a courteous and friendly older scout! For parents, courteous and friendly committee members are a big deal. We have a troop website with the link to a troop handbook, but it's really the personal touch that helps us adapt from year to year.

And what exactly are you worried about? That you'll get a percent decrease in base pay? That your reputation as an easy going MBC is ruined forever? You know what happens when you do something (anything really) for someone (anybody really)? Someone is not going to like it! Thank the CC, and tell him/her that you'll do some soul searching and in the future you'll do your best to adhere to the letter of the requirements. Talk to the SM and tell him that you've heard rumors of boys thinking of quitting on your account and ask him to touch base with the CC about it. There may be other issues, and you might have been the first name the boys mentioned. Every now and then parents take something they hear and blow it out of proportion. Now if there was a specific requirement that's up for interpretation, give your district advancement chair a call or talk to those other counselors. Meanwhile, for which MBs can I send my son to you?

It is possible to be a venturer at some distance from your crew, but that usually is based on an established relationship, I would suggest you put the lad in touch with his council venturing committee. Maybe someone in the area is thinking of starting a crew, or maybe there's a crew putting together an adventure and they need one more person to make it work,

Both strategies should be considered. Don't write off the current troop. The boy might want to ask the current SM if he can still serve if he attends meetings less frequently. For example, QMs often need to put in hours outside of meeting maintaining equipment and tracking gear. A quick report every week to the SPL the day before the meeting might help the troop run more efficiently. Find out if any of the boy's Monday night friends might be interested in visiting a troop or crew. (Remember, venturers who already have First Class can work on Eagle with their crew advisor filling the SM role until boys turn 18.) Understand that this may also be his way of saying he wants to be less active in scouting. Be prepared to accept it for what it is and support the boy accordingly. I had one set of parents want to get their boy integrated in our crew, but after a few meetings, he concluded life was all about the band for him.

A humble DL taking WB? That doesn't happen in our unit. Hope you enjoy the weekends, at the very least you should meet some guys who've dealt with similar situations with varying degrees of success. Whatever you do, don't make this person's issues creep into your ticket. Your goals should be for your position as DL. It's the COR who does the final sign-off on all applications. They can be the "heavy" and say to a candidate, "I've checked sources, and at the moment there are doubts about you're being a team player, so I'm not signing you on as committee member just yet. I would like you to sign on as a scout parent and give it a year to prove them all wrong."

A hike through bear country might help. Oh, you're cubs ... First of all, be positive. Scout shop? "Yes, but when it's open it has the neatest stuff. Worth rearranging one's schedule for a visit!" Talky CM? "He may be long in the tooth, but what preacher isn't? We'd be nothing without him, so it's worth hearing what he has to say." This might not change her. It might change the boy. But your respect for the folks, adults and kids, who are putting their all in the program needs to be loud and clear. At the very least it will keep your attitude positive.

An independent's observation ... An elderly lady, a poet, in the building where I work gave me a bunch of posters that she made herself praising "Captain Obama". (Seriously, that was the title of one of her poems.) I have lots of pro-Mitt friends, but none of them have gotten that syrupy in any of their public statements. So I give cult-of-personality points to the dems.

Does the 22 hours include blogging on this forum? Work hard, play hard, sleep well. If your ship is any good they'll fill the gaps left by you having to devote hours to your job or schoolwork. I'm in the same position with my crew. Youth who should have time to volunteer at the peak of their skilsl doubling down to pay for schooling. I'm sorry about your school. They are victims of our dept-laden society. If each and every American just pitched in $40,000, taxes would worth their full value. There'd be a chance that some of that would go to pay for your future instead of our past. Our enemies know that and disrupt their side of the world enough to keep oil speculation high, so our gains in efficiency just maintain the status quo. All those things beyond your control are for a conversation between you and the Almighty (step #1 in the "sleep well" part). Measure the winds, trim sails, and set course. Excel in the classes you have. Build up a transcript that will make those other schools regret writing you those rejection letters.

I really wonder if BSA is doing that even now...post-Oregon and post-PSU ... or is it still same-o, same-o? The one case that involved my unit was not an actionable offense; and yes, it went up the chain and the authorities were called. In fact folks who should have known better kept it from me because they knew I'd make everyone tow the line. Don't know if you realize this, but folks have a palpable distrust of authority. They don't always act according to their training. Think about it, if your kid is the accused, how quickly would you make that call? Once you did, how certain would you be that if innocent, the system would vindicate him?

Internet attaboy! So what's next? Venturing silver? Hornaday?

Was this a trivia question? Or do you have a situation?

Ya know what's funny? We both said "rich kid's dad" instead of "rich dad"! Whatever you failed to describe to us, in that phrase you conveyed an sense of impoverishment not offset by $$'s in the bank! Anyway, this kid and his mates seem to be worth keeping to you. Hopefully, he'll appreciate it as you ask a little more of him. I look forward to hearing how it plays out.

We use boxes for camp within 200 yards of the trailer. They are stand alone with nooks for legs, a fold-up two-burner stove, a patrol mess kit, utensils, a small propane lantern, wash bins, towels, and soap/spices. They open on the two largest faces, so you get substantial work space. What I don't like is the screw-less leg system requires extra space/weight on the sides of the box for tight holes into which the legs slide. They slide in at an angle so the box stands low. (Fine for younger scouts. For older scouts not so much.) We have a hodge-podge of gear to outfit backpacking. We also have round plastic tubs. Not used as much.

Sounds like we got three potential stories: 1. The glass is 1/10 empty. 2. The glass is 9/10 full. 3. Hey, there's a glass!

Those 13 year olds ... First of all, friendships are a good thing. But somehow you have to get it into their heads that for friendships to last, they are going to have to nurture them. The patrol method is for just that. Really, you should not have let a do-nothing PL go for 3 months. But now, right now, you should ask those boys to seriously think if one of them could do a better job. Tell the PL that it was just the wrong position for him, and you're suggesting a break until he is ready to start giving back to scouting. I honestly think you've got plenty of ideas from everyone here. Don't got a clear idea of the rich kid's dad. Is he trying to do the right thing, or does he not have a clue? Anyway, if there's a chance your parents' are capable of "getting a clue." Get them in the same room and let them know you want to raise the bar for these boys, but you also have 50 others who deserve your time and respect.

Dean, I think your boy gave the best possible answer given the situation. As he gets older, he'll get better with the delivery. Frank and 2c, I've had both results. Some people make a comment hoping their 5 second protest will shake you to the core and they'll never want to talk to you again. Others are actually reaching out in a bizarre sort of way and will buy your coffee trying to figure out how to see things your way.

Geez,224, Next thing you're going to "no big deal" that my 21 y.o. male co-advisor and I can't take the ladies in my crew camping without a female adult. Thanks for lacking the love, man.

OGE, I don't see it as an abuse of trust. But from what I see middle-school kids dealing with, this is small potatoes. Some people have always had issues with scouts. When I was a kid, it was the whole anti-military sentiment. Other folks simply saw us as pretentious. Unlike a snipe hunt, which is a contrived situation, this is real life. If you put on the uniform, it will likely offend someone for reasons no fault of your own. We might think that an adult present would solve the problem, but that's not entirely true. Sometimes adults make things worse, using the power they have (e.g. my snarky response, Federal's taking notes for authorities) to push the boy aside and fan a few flames. Although he might not feel that way now, Dean is in the best possible situation. His boy met some opposition and later talked to him about it. That brought up two opportunities. The first was to discuss real issues about real people. (Middle school is when many boys begin to dealing with this stuff in more than fits and giggles.) The second, was to teach the boy a little courtesy in the face of discouraging remarks. It wouldn't be the first time a youth just being a youth changed someone's opinion of the program. Now, obviously, if DeanRx jr. doesn't ever want to knock on a door again because the neighborhood is full of meanies, we've gone too far.

It's called isolating the problem. Ask the boys what they think would make the troop run better. Ask them if patrols should be reconfigured. A patrol of four isn't unheard of, but even if it's those 4 and a couple other boys, it would change the dynamic. However, these boys might be smart enough to realize if it's all them, then it's all *on* them. Either way you're getting the message across. Put a priority on activities that are really challenging to them. Picking fights doesn't help get you 35 miles down river, or 10 miles up the trail! The boy who is PL, tell him he's not taking care of his boys. Give him four weeks to pull it together. If he's not up to snuff, ask for the patch back. No leadership, no advancement, no problem. If the uniform thing is a disappointment to you, briefly, but as courteously as possible let each boy know about it. But realistically, work on one issue at a time. Uniforming comes after pitching in to help their patrol. Also, be prepared to listen. There may be something going on outside of scouts that's driving these boys. Maybe their grades aren't all that great and the other scouts tease them about it. Maybe it's the other way around. Try to help them figure out life so they can get more out of scouting. Good luck.