qwazse

"But I just want to hike and camp -- and other distractions."

"Did you do the requirements? Convincing yourself that your answer is the right one."

Back in the day ... No geocaches! Rock climbing? Nope. Compound bows? Rarely. Trap shooting? Not at camp. Rifle? Yep, but buy your own ammo. Line up at the trading post by the pay phone to call mom.

What about a man (my dad) who lets his 11y.o. son work at his beer distributor, hauling cases and legs into every bar in the county? Maybe he shouldn't have been a committee member. Very few of us are really in a position to throw stones. That said, if your profession is not one where you'd bring your kid, you probably have some thinking to do. And regarding the polished view of Thai bar girls, I met a woman who was widowed thanks to AIDS from one such "respectable" sex worker. She dug deep, forgave, and got to know some of the girls (most start their careers at age 12 and few reach age 18 - think the age of our scouts), nearly all were dying to get out, but nobody thought they were worth the time nor money to educate or retrain. No amount of religion can whitewash the fact that prostitution, wherever it occurs, exploits the most desperate in our society.

Put him with the den whose leader is most likely to succeed with the boy.

I think as parents of two girls who are getting fed up with the politicking, they have a say. But BP has a point. The best way to redeem the situation is to put the girls in touch with their leaders. It's really hard for a kid to complain about another adult. They want to be respectful. Plus, they may have recently acted like this adult (leaving not much room to throw stones). So you don't want the girls to feel like they have to complain about the person. What you want them to discuss with their leader is how they want what they say to be respected, and how they are afraid of certain program changes that may occur if the youth are ignored, and how the whole thing is robbing you all of a little fun. I'll endure a lot of crotchety old parents, but if a youth tells me that they are feeling bad about a situation, I'm stepping in.

P. - I think E was trying to connect a story with some experience guiding scouters who had adopted a similar attitude. E. - My cousin just teamed up with a cleric to ask hotel chains to stop offering porn on their subscription channels. Their proposal is getting some serious consideration. It may sound like he's swimming upstream, but there is a certain ebb and flow to these things.

I've heard that it's pretty standard GSUSA operating procedure. Not having ever need to deal with them, I've never bothered. Honestly, it depends on the type of camping. If you are in place for a week and working with fresh meat and locally harvested produce, bleach is a good idea. (Washing fruit in bleach before peeling is standard practice for travelers in the tropics.) Wipes are fine for a day and if you don't want to worry about a wet cloth molding up your pack, but they add a lot to the garbage in a large group after a couple of days. Hot water. Soap. Clean rinse (maybe with sanitizer). Sun dry. That's a lethal combination for most microbes. The three tubs is just an organizational thing. It makes it easy for youth to line up with their utensils/plates/cups and process the dishes. You have dozens of kids sticking their hands in the dishwater ... you want those hands cleaned before they grab the drying rack! Then a couple of youth are ready to clean pots and pans. Cleanup is done in minutes. If at all possible, I would train your girls to lash together a drying rack with rope and sticks. It really does add to the "cool factor" in a campsite if you can improvise the comforts of home.

Bead collecting is an adult instinct as old as stacking cairns at stream crossings. From time to time we let the kids in on it.

You know, there are folks who just can't stand it when something wonderful is happening. The kids having gobs of fun is not sufficient evidence that you're doing something right. The pull out reams of quotes from some adult oriented guide in an attempt to shame you for not operating by the book. Non leaders sit on their hands, period. They don't suggest. They listen to what's needed to be done and they support it. They offer time talents and cold hard cash where needed at the leader's approval. They stop doing what the leaders disapprove of. How complicated is this? PS I know nothing of what latitude your GSUSA council will give you. It would be a shame to slight the girl because of the parent.

Hate to say it, but if my council didn't make me, I probably would not have ... Did it make me drive better? Don't know. Did it give me a rough outline to review with drivers before every trip? Yep. Could any of my adults have avoided accidents given the training? Maybe. Could all that have prevented our troop's one fatality? I sincerly doubt it. That one was completely out of our hands. By the way guys. When you get a moment, check your brakes.

We have had the opposite luck with transfers. Even if we were a little more strict with MB acquisition, they stuck with us. Let's face it, if you join us, you're drinking our koolaide! Likewise for the parents. They were good people and greatful that we accepted their boys. We got real leaders from each of them. Now, one or two of those boys parted ways once he or his friend made Eagle, but none asked us to cut corners. Or, if they did, they accepted our "well, no" cheerfully. That's not to say some of those boys weren't anything but trouble. We do try to touch base with the old SMs, but we also take their report with a grain of salt. Sounds like you've done the same. So, don't let the bad apples ruin the pie. Have a warm handshake ready for every transfer.

Our council requiires Risk Zone training. It addresses those specific personal habits topics plus (this one that I've seen many adults ignore) no car caravans!

As the temps drop around here, we find a buddy has helped protect a lad from hypothermia. So, 2 minimum is what we promote. We're fine with 6 in a tent, although sleep deprivation can be an issue like 2nd class mentioned. Our youth bring their own tents. That comes in handy if they want to go camping with their family or friends. (For example, son #1 and his girlfriend used our family gear to take 8 friends from their fellowship camping this weekend.). Over the years, we've kept a variety of tents from 1 to 6 man in the garage. Of course that strategy only works if one in three families are interested in helping their boys maintain their own gear. Finally, if an SPL or JASM would rather tent on his own, that's fine as long as there's a berth for everyone.

It sounds like your 3 oldest should move up to JASM, that will give them the free time to found a crew with their girlfriends! More importantly, it will give them the authority to guide the new PLs. Your basically training them to fill your present position. With any luck, one of them will have time to help ASM in the future. On the other hand, if your older boys have had their fill of intense leadership positions, they may want to go back to being "just this guy in a patrol." If they are willing to be good followers, that's OK. If one of your high school boys wants to have a crack at SPL, or wants to have a do-over because he wants to improve, that's fine too. This may be one of those things that you bring up with the boys. They may have an opinion. Or, in may just be time to hold SPL/PL elections.

You raise a good question, sail. Should board of reviews in the venturing program different in any way from BS BORs? I would suspect Quartermaster would necessarily be different because the nature of the award is very specific. Silver is a nebulous entity. Not sure a BOR could be tested. Never gave it much thought because my crew is not there. Also, let's face it, we all come off as having a law unto ourselves sometimes. But any of you who have crews that awarded Silvers, what guidance have you given your committee?

Maybe that's as good a reason as any to encourage a target date for eagle of age 14 or 15. The probability of a boy having every scout skill, symbol meaning, and point of history in his head at the time of BOR is higher. Fact is, a 17 year old boy who forgot WT Boyce's name and knot or two, but is working on understanding his religion and his sense of moral obligation will get a pass from us. (At least at the SMC. We read the riot act and warn him to study chapter 1 of the BSHB before he meets the board.) A twelve year old, on the other hand, we might ask if he wants a do-over, maybe next week. In other words, after going over what he has or has not retained, we'll put it on him and ask if he should make rank not knowing x. Participation? That "invisible boy" had better be able to tell me what good he was doing instead of scouting and why he felt we weren't worth the time of day to call and explain. Why? Because I have a handful of boys in line for Eagle who do just that. Heck, I have soldiers who call me to apologize for not making a crew activity because they got called up for active. So the excuses are few.

Out of state? We don't even transport in state! On the flip side, there's no shortage of dead ash trees.

No BD! Don't ask! You know what will happen. The GTA seems to give units pretty wide lattitude, so actually I think most troops are indeed "by the book". Most boys are by the book. In fact I'm usually trying to get them to chill and not make requirements seem harder than they actually are. If something is confusing, I give my DAC a call. He'll research, and give me a call back. His answers have proven to be solid and when there was a conflict, the calls to national came down in his favor. So I'm taking what lattitude is evident at face value and running with it.

[laughing out loud] I've had parents say nearly just that about me!

Truth be told, I never read the AG. Most of what I know about comes from: 1. Going to roundtables and taking my DAC at his word. 2. The posts on this forum. It's amazing how far you can limp along on the plain English of the BSHB and the Eagle application!

Don't think Romans were into face paint. Took my daughter to a Steelers v. Seahawks game when she was 4. It was all I could to dress casual for a game. Football being near religion in these parts, I was raised to wear suit and tie for Game day. We were told never to dress like a player unless you were willing to play like one. Times change. We were also told to keep the good looking women in the stands with us. Don't parade them around the sidelines. But I think that was just a Pittsburgh thing to explain why we don't have cheerleaders.

Some folks seem to just want to keep the BS in the BSA! LB, no offense, but you sound like an DE used to reporting paper membership to meet the pay-grade. Just as I would never hesitate to confer an elevated rank because of an adult error in record-keeping, I would never encourage an SM to confer an inappropriate rank simply because folks managing the roster were not honest with themselves about purging it annually. The requirement is "show scout spirit." Those of us who did band + youth groups year 'round, or who had a son who lettered in 5 varsity sports + girlfriend + advanced placement classes before making eagle, have a pretty clear vision of what that looks like. Last night, I sat in on an eSMC for a boy who was steeped in other activities, but still took the time to SPL the troop. He didn't have to. There were several other POR's that he held while Life rank. G&C's scout has effectively said "hurry up and give me this bird, never mind that there's no chance you'll see me on any of your stinking outings." If he changes his mind, great. If not do the boy a favor, give him the district advancement chair's digits so the lad can start writing his appeal while the troop is off camping.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Ya know, it's the closest relationships that are generate the coldest glares. Learn from it as best you can. Make love not war! Ask for your most independent person to be UC of this particular unit. You'll want the CM to have someone who she can be frank with, and who can give guidance to both of you. Not merely be a voice over the Internet.(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

How are you punishing a youth by giving them proper recognition of their abilities? IMHO, SP and his SM were finally according this boy his proper rank. That is not a punishment. Making the boy do push-ups for every end-around his parents pulled ... that would be punishment.