qwazse

Paper half of the equation. And sometimes PDA may be the other half. When a friend was going through a rough patch, I could recall that just a month ago on an outing I saw the two give each other a morning kiss. That little bit of "data" helped to remind them that there was something worth working for. I suppose we all need positive accountability of that sort. Just like we need negative accountability when we're out of line. As for spouses "getting busy" behind thin walls. I try to warn them that if my Mrs. isn't around to stop me, I will applaud after a good audio play! Not sure if that's negative or positive accountability. I haven't had to give an ovation at a troop or crew event yet!

What do they boys think is the most fun? Ask your PLs to think back on when they were working on their knife and ax requirements. How much of a big deal were they to get those? What if you have a boy who just wont swim, but keeps your axe yard spotless and has the campfire in perfect order? How do you recognize his skills without doling out cards?

I'm sorry that your worst fears were realized. The PM is not that messy. No excuses. This is a dysfunctional troop, and until they decide to fix themselves, er's nothing you can do about it.

Outdoor, It's flat at p

Okay, I'll bite and toss out a few unfounded perceptions. Average age at first adult leadership position is usually 6 + age of firstborn son for pack leaders, 11 + age of firstborn son for troop leaders, 14 + age of first born son/daughter for crew leaders. Entry into distric/councilt leadership is usually 15 + age of youngest child. In general, the National Parks service claims that they have more visitors than ever before, so I'm skeptical of any trend that suggest older leaders are more likely to be outdoor type. I know here in PA few families have a member who goes hunting or fishing, but a lot more go hiking and biking. Experienced scouters have been my lifeline. I know the economy impacts how available those scouters can be. Scouting as youth. Doesn't impact program on a unit basis, but I'm sure that across a district, it's a whole lot easier to train the folks who've enjoyed the program as youths. I get the male role-model thing, but it totally stinks to lose women to other programs and then try to regroup them to come on crew outings 4 years later. For this and other reasons, our troop is really trying to put an end to the "old boy's club." On the other hand, maybe being a den mom is good prep for other work in the community that's not scouting related. That whole "sage, worldly" bit gave me a chuckle. There's always the side that isn't shown in the portriat! I think we still want to see that bit of polish in our SMs. But, there always has been and should always be that "overgrown boy" that makes the scouts know that fun is part of the game!

Is your boy a First Class scout? Not does he have the patch, but has he integrated all of those basic scouting skills? Is he grasping things like first aid, camp cooking, land navigation, and safe swim at a fairly decent clip? What does safe swim defense have to do with hiking? Well you may set up an aquatics area at a swimming hole on the trail, but that's not my point. Discipline is one of the key things that makes backpacking a success. A scout who knows there are boundaries for different types of activities will take what he's doing seriously enough to enjoy himself. You asked about physical prep. But honestly, the mental prep and maturity are the real anchors for the sport.

My last post didn't take. But 'Rat put it better anyway. The boys are looking to you all for leadership. This isn't a grand tribunal thing, it's a CC or COR pointing out a series of improprieties and one YPT violation. You should expect a "We won't let it happen again." (Maybe even an apology to the SPL from the gentleman. After all, a troop is trying to model behavior for their boys. And being man enough to admit when you're out of line is a hallmark of maturity.) If that's not forthcoming, then only one of them should be welcome on the same outing.

The other take is that engagements are family-based relationships. But, if someone my age had made a proposals to a 19 year old, I'd probably not to have him/her on the roster!

IMHO, if the boys think it will be fun, they should do it for a charity they like. Our boys go caroling and they proudly collect money for a local nursing home. All the money yor boys collect should go to something of the sort. For the winning patrol? I suggest a signature Dutch oven desert on the next campout. Courtesy of your old fart's patrol.

Look, if I can get yelled at for running off geocaching in the middle of a hike, they can get yelled at for inordinate affections. As far as rules that apply, Guide to Safe Scouting is very clear. They need a certificate of marriage to sleep together. It's that simple. Some of those boys will turn 18 find themselves engaged to a venturer. Same rules apply. There are plenty of outdoor clubs that will allow that sort of thing. They can shack up and not worry about the example to the boys or how they are representing their CO. I wouldn't throw them out just yet. But let them know that how they comport themselves is a violation of youth protection guidelines. You can be honest about the PDA being annoying, but don't confound that with the fact that if they don't take sleeping arrangements seriously they'll be asked to not come on any more outings.

All of the above, plus a cautionary tale: Had a 12/13 y.o. younger brother along on an early spring weekend in back-country once. I really started regretting it when a winter storm stalled over the Chesapeake and started pulling hurricane force winds across the mountain we were on. (We got nothing that compares to what DesertRat's had in AK, but that day we sure could have used those crampons!) If it weren't for an ASM who anchored his legs, the kid's nickname would have become "kite." That was one of my personal motivations for starting a venturing crew: to make a clear distinction between physical challenges. The boy's scars healed. At age 14, he went on a crew contingent to Philmont. He also stuck by our first group of young women who wanted to backpack -- committing to conditioning hikes while we helped them get the right gear. He returned to that infamous piece of country a couple time since. He drug us out winter hiking and camping, and I still get occasional reports of him roaming the hills on the weekends. So, it worked out -- this time. But, I'm not incline to repeat it. I'm not saying that you can't condition a younger scout to do that sort of thing. But it's a tremendous challenge to keep up with a patrol of older boys if they are in shape. And when things go south, everybody has to have their head in the game. I.e., be an anchor, not a kite!

First, no mention of references in the project workbook. Second, no mention of method of collecting references on the application. Not even a citation to the advancement guide on the eagle app. The guide suggests a closed process, but -- although nothing on the application suggests that the boy should collect open references -- nothing suggests that council will collect closed references. So, I chalk it up to folks treating Oak Tree's quotes as guidelines, no mandates. In general, I write open references. I've never been in a position of having to say something extremely negative, and I have no problems writing about a person's "eccentricities." You can count on me talking about you to your face in the same way as I would talk about you to someone else. IMHO, that's what trustworthy means. So, if council did collect references, I would probably still give a copy to the scout. I suspect, in the OP's case, the boy's eagle mentor collects a copy of the reference for redundancy. A council can be a black hole when it comes to paperwork.

you should resign not the youth For what? Putting up straw men? If SMB is like this Advisor, he's gunning for retirement. His only problem is that his potential replacements keep tripping over the fraternization boundary! This advisor would love to have that problem. How bout this: Keep everything as above board as possible. Nobody resigns/suspends membership until asked. If suspended, someone discovers there is life outside BSA. (Life, you know, that thing we've been training them for? Where they might actually make more $/hour than camp staff?) Everybody grows.

Here, the boy collects them and takes them with his app to council HQ. We try to get him to gather them before the SMC. Saves stamps. Keeps the boy responsible.

Good. Sort of. First of all, rank, POR, and age are completely irrelevant. When you are wearing the MBC hat you should none of those things should be a concern of yours. You should consider ability. Some scouts can pound out a four page essay in no time. (One day they will add to the BS in the BS of A.) Other scouts don't have writing as a strong suit, so you will have to work a little harder or differently to make sure they've grasped the gist of the requirement. Some really do need a parent's or teacher's assistance. Look at the work that's turned in. Meet with each scout individually (as MBC you should do that any way) to make sure they've grasped the material they've submitted so far. Help each boy make an individual plan for completion of the requirements, and leave it up to them to call you for the next (and hopefully but not necessarily final) counseling session. I would spare myself the misery of talking to parents. If they are in the room when you discuss things with the scout, you've just killed two birds with one stone! You may need to have the SM or CC talk to dad of Scout #1 and tell him it's time to lighten up on the kid. Focus on participation and service, not busy work!

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

Boy, SMB, your crew must be cesspool of broken morale, envy, and divisiveness! You have one youth currying favors with your adult leaders via shared housing and another will soon do so via declaration of marriage. No doubt your other venturers feel marginalized. Any chance these guys want to transfer to Pittsburgh? I'm feeling a little burnt out, and my kids could use examples like these.

Thanks, Click, for your selective quote. Here's mine from the last highlighted paragraph in 7.0.1.0. ... "In any case, through the years, many councils have created new forms and approaches to the process, some including IT components. In an effort to gather and consider these potential best practices, councils are now asked to submit descriptions and copies of their blue card alternatives to the national Advancement Team." That's our lovely AG acknowledging that cards "don't have to be blue, they don't even have to be cards." And, national is open to the possibility of them being something completely different. But you do have a point. Kids, down try any of this without council approval and their accountability to national!

A little unorthodox here: single burner Coleman stoves are very durable, don't break easily and work well with your existing gear. One of those for each patrol is not a bad option until a few boys decide to invest in their own lightweight stoves. One cylinder covers a lot of meals, plus coffee!

First of all, the card doesn't have to be blue! It doesn't even have to be a card. Secondly, although we are trying to help boys lead more ordered lives, we all know that C. Callay's list is an abbreviated one! Thirdly, we want to give the MBC the latitude to sort things out with the boy. There's a difference between still being active in two sports (one season ending and on beginning) and having played your last game four years ago. But, that's not my call. I'd give the boy the MBC's contact info and my permission to start his journey. P.S. - It drove us nuts when Son #1 earned 5 varsity letters in four sports and never picked up this MB!

Our troop's never bothered with it, but I would ... Give the application to the SPL and have them ask the PLC what they think the right interpretation is. What do they think is better for the troop? Do they think it would be right to bend the rules because so-and-so has 10 badges from list "B" and none from none from the official list? Do they care, or would they rather just go fly-fishing?

So, what does this have to do with the price of tea thrown in Boston harbor? These kids, like colonists, want to have it all. They've experienced tremendous acceptance locally but there's this blanket sanction from afar that seems to go against what everyone has told them is proper behavior. Some of us agree, because nobody can tell us intelligently how a couple of adults with proper intent to marry puts our youth at any risk. Generally, we are not scofflaws, but when it feels like something is getting in the way of the greater good for no reason proper leadership tells us to work around "the rules." Now maybe it is a good idea to suspend a membership and help them focus on preparing for marriage. We all know that there is life outside the BSA, so in the grand scheme of things following the letter of the law should be no big deal. I, myself, am not a fan of long engagement. But I don't know the OP's crew and in general most advisors wouldn't tell kids to hussle up and tie the knot just so they could have one more adult on the roster! It sounds like he's seeing no harm supporting this couple through scouting and possible harm in letting either kid go. So, my advice remains talk to folks locally to see if there's wiggle room.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Catholics have one-upped BSA. E61, I understand the temptation to sweep things under a rug. I know that it is much stronger in families than in scouting. But you're right that it is not nonexistent in scouting. We can become too much like a family, and a "this will wreck our program" rhetoric gets thrown in every leader's face. The authorities have been called at my request. It allowed a leader's name to be cleared. I assure you, I have no problems calling the authorities on anyone who betrays our trust.

The missus told me that my father-in-law said something of the sort. I think the stories hit closer to home because his son was a scout for a while at that time. What folks don't realize is how lucky they are if they or grampa or uncle or auntie haven't molested their kids. I know more adults who are picking up the pieces after that sort of history than after one being molested by an SM or church youth leader. (Actually, except for this forum, I've never met someone who was molested by an scout leader. I have met one or two who were abused by other types of youth leaders. I can't imagine the folks who would be willing to open up to me about that sort of stuff would be less willing if the abuser were a scouter, so I believe the stats.) That said, there's this expectation that a big organization would clean house far better than our messed up families. I wish we could live up to it. Maybe we are now?