qwazse

The other take is that engagements are family-based relationships. But, if someone my age had made a proposals to a 19 year old, I'd probably not to have him/her on the roster!

IMHO, if the boys think it will be fun, they should do it for a charity they like. Our boys go caroling and they proudly collect money for a local nursing home. All the money yor boys collect should go to something of the sort. For the winning patrol? I suggest a signature Dutch oven desert on the next campout. Courtesy of your old fart's patrol.

Look, if I can get yelled at for running off geocaching in the middle of a hike, they can get yelled at for inordinate affections. As far as rules that apply, Guide to Safe Scouting is very clear. They need a certificate of marriage to sleep together. It's that simple. Some of those boys will turn 18 find themselves engaged to a venturer. Same rules apply. There are plenty of outdoor clubs that will allow that sort of thing. They can shack up and not worry about the example to the boys or how they are representing their CO. I wouldn't throw them out just yet. But let them know that how they comport themselves is a violation of youth protection guidelines. You can be honest about the PDA being annoying, but don't confound that with the fact that if they don't take sleeping arrangements seriously they'll be asked to not come on any more outings.

All of the above, plus a cautionary tale: Had a 12/13 y.o. younger brother along on an early spring weekend in back-country once. I really started regretting it when a winter storm stalled over the Chesapeake and started pulling hurricane force winds across the mountain we were on. (We got nothing that compares to what DesertRat's had in AK, but that day we sure could have used those crampons!) If it weren't for an ASM who anchored his legs, the kid's nickname would have become "kite." That was one of my personal motivations for starting a venturing crew: to make a clear distinction between physical challenges. The boy's scars healed. At age 14, he went on a crew contingent to Philmont. He also stuck by our first group of young women who wanted to backpack -- committing to conditioning hikes while we helped them get the right gear. He returned to that infamous piece of country a couple time since. He drug us out winter hiking and camping, and I still get occasional reports of him roaming the hills on the weekends. So, it worked out -- this time. But, I'm not incline to repeat it. I'm not saying that you can't condition a younger scout to do that sort of thing. But it's a tremendous challenge to keep up with a patrol of older boys if they are in shape. And when things go south, everybody has to have their head in the game. I.e., be an anchor, not a kite!

First, no mention of references in the project workbook. Second, no mention of method of collecting references on the application. Not even a citation to the advancement guide on the eagle app. The guide suggests a closed process, but -- although nothing on the application suggests that the boy should collect open references -- nothing suggests that council will collect closed references. So, I chalk it up to folks treating Oak Tree's quotes as guidelines, no mandates. In general, I write open references. I've never been in a position of having to say something extremely negative, and I have no problems writing about a person's "eccentricities." You can count on me talking about you to your face in the same way as I would talk about you to someone else. IMHO, that's what trustworthy means. So, if council did collect references, I would probably still give a copy to the scout. I suspect, in the OP's case, the boy's eagle mentor collects a copy of the reference for redundancy. A council can be a black hole when it comes to paperwork.

you should resign not the youth For what? Putting up straw men? If SMB is like this Advisor, he's gunning for retirement. His only problem is that his potential replacements keep tripping over the fraternization boundary! This advisor would love to have that problem. How bout this: Keep everything as above board as possible. Nobody resigns/suspends membership until asked. If suspended, someone discovers there is life outside BSA. (Life, you know, that thing we've been training them for? Where they might actually make more $/hour than camp staff?) Everybody grows.

Here, the boy collects them and takes them with his app to council HQ. We try to get him to gather them before the SMC. Saves stamps. Keeps the boy responsible.

Good. Sort of. First of all, rank, POR, and age are completely irrelevant. When you are wearing the MBC hat you should none of those things should be a concern of yours. You should consider ability. Some scouts can pound out a four page essay in no time. (One day they will add to the BS in the BS of A.) Other scouts don't have writing as a strong suit, so you will have to work a little harder or differently to make sure they've grasped the gist of the requirement. Some really do need a parent's or teacher's assistance. Look at the work that's turned in. Meet with each scout individually (as MBC you should do that any way) to make sure they've grasped the material they've submitted so far. Help each boy make an individual plan for completion of the requirements, and leave it up to them to call you for the next (and hopefully but not necessarily final) counseling session. I would spare myself the misery of talking to parents. If they are in the room when you discuss things with the scout, you've just killed two birds with one stone! You may need to have the SM or CC talk to dad of Scout #1 and tell him it's time to lighten up on the kid. Focus on participation and service, not busy work!

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

Boy, SMB, your crew must be cesspool of broken morale, envy, and divisiveness! You have one youth currying favors with your adult leaders via shared housing and another will soon do so via declaration of marriage. No doubt your other venturers feel marginalized. Any chance these guys want to transfer to Pittsburgh? I'm feeling a little burnt out, and my kids could use examples like these.

Thanks, Click, for your selective quote. Here's mine from the last highlighted paragraph in 7.0.1.0. ... "In any case, through the years, many councils have created new forms and approaches to the process, some including IT components. In an effort to gather and consider these potential best practices, councils are now asked to submit descriptions and copies of their blue card alternatives to the national Advancement Team." That's our lovely AG acknowledging that cards "don't have to be blue, they don't even have to be cards." And, national is open to the possibility of them being something completely different. But you do have a point. Kids, down try any of this without council approval and their accountability to national!

A little unorthodox here: single burner Coleman stoves are very durable, don't break easily and work well with your existing gear. One of those for each patrol is not a bad option until a few boys decide to invest in their own lightweight stoves. One cylinder covers a lot of meals, plus coffee!

First of all, the card doesn't have to be blue! It doesn't even have to be a card. Secondly, although we are trying to help boys lead more ordered lives, we all know that C. Callay's list is an abbreviated one! Thirdly, we want to give the MBC the latitude to sort things out with the boy. There's a difference between still being active in two sports (one season ending and on beginning) and having played your last game four years ago. But, that's not my call. I'd give the boy the MBC's contact info and my permission to start his journey. P.S. - It drove us nuts when Son #1 earned 5 varsity letters in four sports and never picked up this MB!

Our troop's never bothered with it, but I would ... Give the application to the SPL and have them ask the PLC what they think the right interpretation is. What do they think is better for the troop? Do they think it would be right to bend the rules because so-and-so has 10 badges from list "B" and none from none from the official list? Do they care, or would they rather just go fly-fishing?

So, what does this have to do with the price of tea thrown in Boston harbor? These kids, like colonists, want to have it all. They've experienced tremendous acceptance locally but there's this blanket sanction from afar that seems to go against what everyone has told them is proper behavior. Some of us agree, because nobody can tell us intelligently how a couple of adults with proper intent to marry puts our youth at any risk. Generally, we are not scofflaws, but when it feels like something is getting in the way of the greater good for no reason proper leadership tells us to work around "the rules." Now maybe it is a good idea to suspend a membership and help them focus on preparing for marriage. We all know that there is life outside the BSA, so in the grand scheme of things following the letter of the law should be no big deal. I, myself, am not a fan of long engagement. But I don't know the OP's crew and in general most advisors wouldn't tell kids to hussle up and tie the knot just so they could have one more adult on the roster! It sounds like he's seeing no harm supporting this couple through scouting and possible harm in letting either kid go. So, my advice remains talk to folks locally to see if there's wiggle room.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Catholics have one-upped BSA. E61, I understand the temptation to sweep things under a rug. I know that it is much stronger in families than in scouting. But you're right that it is not nonexistent in scouting. We can become too much like a family, and a "this will wreck our program" rhetoric gets thrown in every leader's face. The authorities have been called at my request. It allowed a leader's name to be cleared. I assure you, I have no problems calling the authorities on anyone who betrays our trust.

The missus told me that my father-in-law said something of the sort. I think the stories hit closer to home because his son was a scout for a while at that time. What folks don't realize is how lucky they are if they or grampa or uncle or auntie haven't molested their kids. I know more adults who are picking up the pieces after that sort of history than after one being molested by an SM or church youth leader. (Actually, except for this forum, I've never met someone who was molested by an scout leader. I have met one or two who were abused by other types of youth leaders. I can't imagine the folks who would be willing to open up to me about that sort of stuff would be less willing if the abuser were a scouter, so I believe the stats.) That said, there's this expectation that a big organization would clean house far better than our messed up families. I wish we could live up to it. Maybe we are now?

Kudos to you OGE. Having just sprained my ankle (fortunately after my scheduled backpacking trip), I'm impressed with anyone who runs any distance! Bethlehem is pretty hilly, was the course? I think OGE makes the point that scouting doesn't have a lock on all things good for boys. We do take a leap that faith and patriotism are linked. (And maybe some of you are looking at your candidates right now thinking "it's going to take a miracle".) That's not always the case. As a scouter, I use the outdoors to promote a theistic world view. That's for one simple reason. I've had more serious (and possibly decisive) discussions about faith on the trail than I have had under the roof of a house of worship.

I'd be fine with splits if the boys in the new troop said to me "boy we are having so much fun!" Instead they ask, "Can I come back to your troop?". Sometimes, they tell me this once they are adults! Of course we keep an open door, but they aren't walking through it! Pretty sure most of the time it's an adult thing.

Two words: Round Table You should be able to go to your RT commish and ask for an evening where someon talks about "low motivation scouts". Maybe a panel discussion with three SMs who've experienced and overcome the problem. These forums have helped me a lot. That's why I bother with them, but there are certainly gaps. It would take a very skilled author to sift through the new and unique offerings from these discussions. There is no way that WB could covers all this. And some of us have limited patience for books!

For most MBs a boy probably can come in having done prior work. Reading the requirements, at the very minimum! It's up to the MBC to determine if that prior work address the heart of any of the requirements.

Abrasive as BP's retort may be, my VLST concurrs with his. We are told that it is up to the couple as to which member suspends his/her registration. I'm sure that advisors may suggest their preference, as sometimes one vs. the other might make sense for a number of reasons. But I'm equally sure that the average advisor would conspire to keep both parties in scouting, especially if employment is an issue. The young couple should be able to save up for their wedding, right? Regardless of what happens on paper, most advisors will proceed with whatever configuration works on the ground. The SE or the Camping Director or whoever would be getting a call if indeed these young adults are contributing significantly to the program.

OGO, I think it's pretty clear that you have no say in how some other troop allocates its own money. By leaving the boy is essentially relinquishing his stewardship over those funds. No harm in the parents contacting the charter org rep to find how set in stone things really are. But make it clear that there's no reason for them to expect things to be any different than what they were told. If a transfer is impossible, I would encourage the boy to ask his old troop if he could have some say on how the money would be spent. Maybe he would rather it go to camperships, or a batch of uniform shirts, or eagle project materials. Maybe it could go into paying the fuel for his old patrol to drive over and camp with his new troop some weekend! Our troop generally encourages boys to use the money in their accounts as quickly as they earn it. Doing so usually translates into equipment and uniforms being handed down fairly quickly.

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to make the leap of faith that a scientifically improbable configuration of matter precipitated from forces no more profound those that shape tea leaves.