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EBOR's may happen after the boy's 18th b.d., so I don't see how taking a little longer to chase down references could be an issue. It might bog down the board if they have a number of candidates whose references haven't replied. But that's not the worst problem to have!

Way to make the easy hard, Fred. First of all adults don't tear off corners. At least I've never bothered. I just point out to a boy that he's behaving hazardously and let him know that, by rights, his PL should have a look at his chit. I'll leave it up to the PL to decide if immediate action needs to be taken. The practice is a teaching method in itself. Older scouts re-enforce their knowledge by recognizing hazards. The perpetrators get immediate guidance on the importance of discipline. It's usually just one kid who loses all of his corners. (I think it's a corollary to "There's always one in every bunch.") This kind of kid should get assigned to a JASM or ASM. As soon as you can, have him read the card, try to go over what went wrong, determine how much was ignorance vs. how much was conduct, and based on that set a time where the boy can re-earn the card. IMHO, you want a boy to earn/re-earn his chits ASAP because fires and knives aren't going away while he's in the dog house! Admittedly, there's always the possibility of some anal SPL lording it over other boys and wantonly "ripping corners" at the slightest hint of violation. That's a leadership training issue -- not a problem with the method itself.

Northeaster on Lake Erie. I've heard old-timers talk about this sort of thing. Not sure how often it lasts for 48+ hours. Whatever wasn't tied down in Canada will wash up along my in-law's boat ramp. Hear's hoping Flagship Niagara is dry-docked. As far as Pittsburgh goes, I figure a lot of our linemen are getting ready to head east once they take care of micro-burst damage here.

We cover everything in Second Class for both cards but some boys want to earn these right out of the gate, even before Tenderfoot. I think you answered your question. The young boys want to earn them. It's fine to earn a second class requirement before getting Tenderfoot. (Sometimes it's a good idea. E.g., the non-swimmers!) It's also fine to show the new boys your program calendar and when there will be instruction so they won't nag you at inappropriate times. So if a boy wants to proceed in order of interest (rather than order of requirements), let him as long as your program can support it! We have a tradition that if you are being unsafe, the SPL/PL may request your card an tear a corner from it. Once all four corners are gone they may cut/burn a hole in the middle at which point you have to re-earn the card to qualify to use knife/axe/fire. Since we stopped teaching boys to play mumbly peg, I haven't seen any cards lost -- maybe a few corners torn. Along these lines, has anyone thought of going to an E-chit? I.e., list the "certified" boys names (First name. last initial.) on a troop web page?

I confront someone immediately if harm is likely. That may also include if morale might slip because of too much "grey area" discussion. Other stuff, I wait and talk to someone with more authority or experience than me. It's pretty rare that I pull out a guide and throw the book at someone. I usually find the rules defend my actions against folks who would put up barriers.

Paper half of the equation. And sometimes PDA may be the other half. When a friend was going through a rough patch, I could recall that just a month ago on an outing I saw the two give each other a morning kiss. That little bit of "data" helped to remind them that there was something worth working for. I suppose we all need positive accountability of that sort. Just like we need negative accountability when we're out of line. As for spouses "getting busy" behind thin walls. I try to warn them that if my Mrs. isn't around to stop me, I will applaud after a good audio play! Not sure if that's negative or positive accountability. I haven't had to give an ovation at a troop or crew event yet!

What do they boys think is the most fun? Ask your PLs to think back on when they were working on their knife and ax requirements. How much of a big deal were they to get those? What if you have a boy who just wont swim, but keeps your axe yard spotless and has the campfire in perfect order? How do you recognize his skills without doling out cards?

I'm sorry that your worst fears were realized. The PM is not that messy. No excuses. This is a dysfunctional troop, and until they decide to fix themselves, er's nothing you can do about it.

Outdoor, It's flat at p

Okay, I'll bite and toss out a few unfounded perceptions. Average age at first adult leadership position is usually 6 + age of firstborn son for pack leaders, 11 + age of firstborn son for troop leaders, 14 + age of first born son/daughter for crew leaders. Entry into distric/councilt leadership is usually 15 + age of youngest child. In general, the National Parks service claims that they have more visitors than ever before, so I'm skeptical of any trend that suggest older leaders are more likely to be outdoor type. I know here in PA few families have a member who goes hunting or fishing, but a lot more go hiking and biking. Experienced scouters have been my lifeline. I know the economy impacts how available those scouters can be. Scouting as youth. Doesn't impact program on a unit basis, but I'm sure that across a district, it's a whole lot easier to train the folks who've enjoyed the program as youths. I get the male role-model thing, but it totally stinks to lose women to other programs and then try to regroup them to come on crew outings 4 years later. For this and other reasons, our troop is really trying to put an end to the "old boy's club." On the other hand, maybe being a den mom is good prep for other work in the community that's not scouting related. That whole "sage, worldly" bit gave me a chuckle. There's always the side that isn't shown in the portriat! I think we still want to see that bit of polish in our SMs. But, there always has been and should always be that "overgrown boy" that makes the scouts know that fun is part of the game!

Is your boy a First Class scout? Not does he have the patch, but has he integrated all of those basic scouting skills? Is he grasping things like first aid, camp cooking, land navigation, and safe swim at a fairly decent clip? What does safe swim defense have to do with hiking? Well you may set up an aquatics area at a swimming hole on the trail, but that's not my point. Discipline is one of the key things that makes backpacking a success. A scout who knows there are boundaries for different types of activities will take what he's doing seriously enough to enjoy himself. You asked about physical prep. But honestly, the mental prep and maturity are the real anchors for the sport.

My last post didn't take. But 'Rat put it better anyway. The boys are looking to you all for leadership. This isn't a grand tribunal thing, it's a CC or COR pointing out a series of improprieties and one YPT violation. You should expect a "We won't let it happen again." (Maybe even an apology to the SPL from the gentleman. After all, a troop is trying to model behavior for their boys. And being man enough to admit when you're out of line is a hallmark of maturity.) If that's not forthcoming, then only one of them should be welcome on the same outing.

The other take is that engagements are family-based relationships. But, if someone my age had made a proposals to a 19 year old, I'd probably not to have him/her on the roster!

IMHO, if the boys think it will be fun, they should do it for a charity they like. Our boys go caroling and they proudly collect money for a local nursing home. All the money yor boys collect should go to something of the sort. For the winning patrol? I suggest a signature Dutch oven desert on the next campout. Courtesy of your old fart's patrol.

Look, if I can get yelled at for running off geocaching in the middle of a hike, they can get yelled at for inordinate affections. As far as rules that apply, Guide to Safe Scouting is very clear. They need a certificate of marriage to sleep together. It's that simple. Some of those boys will turn 18 find themselves engaged to a venturer. Same rules apply. There are plenty of outdoor clubs that will allow that sort of thing. They can shack up and not worry about the example to the boys or how they are representing their CO. I wouldn't throw them out just yet. But let them know that how they comport themselves is a violation of youth protection guidelines. You can be honest about the PDA being annoying, but don't confound that with the fact that if they don't take sleeping arrangements seriously they'll be asked to not come on any more outings.

All of the above, plus a cautionary tale: Had a 12/13 y.o. younger brother along on an early spring weekend in back-country once. I really started regretting it when a winter storm stalled over the Chesapeake and started pulling hurricane force winds across the mountain we were on. (We got nothing that compares to what DesertRat's had in AK, but that day we sure could have used those crampons!) If it weren't for an ASM who anchored his legs, the kid's nickname would have become "kite." That was one of my personal motivations for starting a venturing crew: to make a clear distinction between physical challenges. The boy's scars healed. At age 14, he went on a crew contingent to Philmont. He also stuck by our first group of young women who wanted to backpack -- committing to conditioning hikes while we helped them get the right gear. He returned to that infamous piece of country a couple time since. He drug us out winter hiking and camping, and I still get occasional reports of him roaming the hills on the weekends. So, it worked out -- this time. But, I'm not incline to repeat it. I'm not saying that you can't condition a younger scout to do that sort of thing. But it's a tremendous challenge to keep up with a patrol of older boys if they are in shape. And when things go south, everybody has to have their head in the game. I.e., be an anchor, not a kite!

First, no mention of references in the project workbook. Second, no mention of method of collecting references on the application. Not even a citation to the advancement guide on the eagle app. The guide suggests a closed process, but -- although nothing on the application suggests that the boy should collect open references -- nothing suggests that council will collect closed references. So, I chalk it up to folks treating Oak Tree's quotes as guidelines, no mandates. In general, I write open references. I've never been in a position of having to say something extremely negative, and I have no problems writing about a person's "eccentricities." You can count on me talking about you to your face in the same way as I would talk about you to someone else. IMHO, that's what trustworthy means. So, if council did collect references, I would probably still give a copy to the scout. I suspect, in the OP's case, the boy's eagle mentor collects a copy of the reference for redundancy. A council can be a black hole when it comes to paperwork.

you should resign not the youth For what? Putting up straw men? If SMB is like this Advisor, he's gunning for retirement. His only problem is that his potential replacements keep tripping over the fraternization boundary! This advisor would love to have that problem. How bout this: Keep everything as above board as possible. Nobody resigns/suspends membership until asked. If suspended, someone discovers there is life outside BSA. (Life, you know, that thing we've been training them for? Where they might actually make more $/hour than camp staff?) Everybody grows.

Here, the boy collects them and takes them with his app to council HQ. We try to get him to gather them before the SMC. Saves stamps. Keeps the boy responsible.

Good. Sort of. First of all, rank, POR, and age are completely irrelevant. When you are wearing the MBC hat you should none of those things should be a concern of yours. You should consider ability. Some scouts can pound out a four page essay in no time. (One day they will add to the BS in the BS of A.) Other scouts don't have writing as a strong suit, so you will have to work a little harder or differently to make sure they've grasped the gist of the requirement. Some really do need a parent's or teacher's assistance. Look at the work that's turned in. Meet with each scout individually (as MBC you should do that any way) to make sure they've grasped the material they've submitted so far. Help each boy make an individual plan for completion of the requirements, and leave it up to them to call you for the next (and hopefully but not necessarily final) counseling session. I would spare myself the misery of talking to parents. If they are in the room when you discuss things with the scout, you've just killed two birds with one stone! You may need to have the SM or CC talk to dad of Scout #1 and tell him it's time to lighten up on the kid. Focus on participation and service, not busy work!

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

We are in a slightly different position because our challenge is to maintain that "hike in" attitude. We rely on a lot of individual gear and, therefore, a culture of hand-me-downs. A high school female who has been conditioned that her biggest expense should be dresses for prom and homecoming will not be properly equipped at all. I suspect your boys are somewhat further along than that! You just need to figure out what the "real gaps" are. So here's what we do. An older scout or venturer brings a pack (fully provisioned) to a meeting. He/she unpacks it, talks about how the gear was organized and how it was acquired. Then while answering questions, reassembles it. If you don't have such a scout, find out at roundtable if a troop/crew would be able to loan you their experienced youth for an evening. We ask around our troop alumni for hand-me-down gear. Half the stuff people have will rot if they keep it stored they way they probably are doing, so they'd be happy to donate it. Encourage parents to keep one eye open at garage sales and flea markets. (That accounts for half my gear and 1/10th my expense, bless my wife.) Next week, we have the boys bring their packs and shake each other down. We plan your next outing within the next month where you can hike a couple of miles in to a site with a known water source. At the end of our hike we evaluate what went well what didn't go well and what you would do differently. One month your boys might want to have a fundraiser to build up the "gear library." (My youth usually discover the importance of gainful employment at this point!) Doing that every month will eventually have your boys in shape for a longer hike. Those two hours hiking into camp will barely make a dent in whatever program you have, and will likely help your first-years accomplish several advancement goals. In a couple of months, your boys will be asking for a trip where hiking takes up most of the weekend. Before you know it, your boys will be dragging you off trail through laurel thickets! Try to have your orienteering And survival skills nailed down by then. Anyway, you get the idea.

Boy, SMB, your crew must be cesspool of broken morale, envy, and divisiveness! You have one youth currying favors with your adult leaders via shared housing and another will soon do so via declaration of marriage. No doubt your other venturers feel marginalized. Any chance these guys want to transfer to Pittsburgh? I'm feeling a little burnt out, and my kids could use examples like these.

Thanks, Click, for your selective quote. Here's mine from the last highlighted paragraph in 7.0.1.0. ... "In any case, through the years, many councils have created new forms and approaches to the process, some including IT components. In an effort to gather and consider these potential best practices, councils are now asked to submit descriptions and copies of their blue card alternatives to the national Advancement Team." That's our lovely AG acknowledging that cards "don't have to be blue, they don't even have to be cards." And, national is open to the possibility of them being something completely different. But you do have a point. Kids, down try any of this without council approval and their accountability to national!

A little unorthodox here: single burner Coleman stoves are very durable, don't break easily and work well with your existing gear. One of those for each patrol is not a bad option until a few boys decide to invest in their own lightweight stoves. One cylinder covers a lot of meals, plus coffee!