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Kudos to you OGE. Having just sprained my ankle (fortunately after my scheduled backpacking trip), I'm impressed with anyone who runs any distance! Bethlehem is pretty hilly, was the course? I think OGE makes the point that scouting doesn't have a lock on all things good for boys. We do take a leap that faith and patriotism are linked. (And maybe some of you are looking at your candidates right now thinking "it's going to take a miracle".) That's not always the case. As a scouter, I use the outdoors to promote a theistic world view. That's for one simple reason. I've had more serious (and possibly decisive) discussions about faith on the trail than I have had under the roof of a house of worship.

I'd be fine with splits if the boys in the new troop said to me "boy we are having so much fun!" Instead they ask, "Can I come back to your troop?". Sometimes, they tell me this once they are adults! Of course we keep an open door, but they aren't walking through it! Pretty sure most of the time it's an adult thing.

Two words: Round Table You should be able to go to your RT commish and ask for an evening where someon talks about "low motivation scouts". Maybe a panel discussion with three SMs who've experienced and overcome the problem. These forums have helped me a lot. That's why I bother with them, but there are certainly gaps. It would take a very skilled author to sift through the new and unique offerings from these discussions. There is no way that WB could covers all this. And some of us have limited patience for books!

For most MBs a boy probably can come in having done prior work. Reading the requirements, at the very minimum! It's up to the MBC to determine if that prior work address the heart of any of the requirements.

Abrasive as BP's retort may be, my VLST concurrs with his. We are told that it is up to the couple as to which member suspends his/her registration. I'm sure that advisors may suggest their preference, as sometimes one vs. the other might make sense for a number of reasons. But I'm equally sure that the average advisor would conspire to keep both parties in scouting, especially if employment is an issue. The young couple should be able to save up for their wedding, right? Regardless of what happens on paper, most advisors will proceed with whatever configuration works on the ground. The SE or the Camping Director or whoever would be getting a call if indeed these young adults are contributing significantly to the program.

OGO, I think it's pretty clear that you have no say in how some other troop allocates its own money. By leaving the boy is essentially relinquishing his stewardship over those funds. No harm in the parents contacting the charter org rep to find how set in stone things really are. But make it clear that there's no reason for them to expect things to be any different than what they were told. If a transfer is impossible, I would encourage the boy to ask his old troop if he could have some say on how the money would be spent. Maybe he would rather it go to camperships, or a batch of uniform shirts, or eagle project materials. Maybe it could go into paying the fuel for his old patrol to drive over and camp with his new troop some weekend! Our troop generally encourages boys to use the money in their accounts as quickly as they earn it. Doing so usually translates into equipment and uniforms being handed down fairly quickly.

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to make the leap of faith that a scientifically improbable configuration of matter precipitated from forces no more profound those that shape tea leaves.

It's a rare co-Ed crew that would insert into backcountry with less than four ... especially if rescue may take overnight. It would have to be mostly 18-20 year olds, but then it's rare when a group that age would bother with any adults. They would not call it a crew activity. They'd leave a note on the counter, and be gone. You can tell how the evolution of my crew has gone, eh? If you've done differently with your crews, that's awesome, and I hope to see it with mine one day. It would be great to have a half-dozen kids excluding so much confidence that you and one other adult just wind up tagging along!

Didn't realize your CO was a Roman Catholic Church. Yes, they have beefed up their program.

Talked to the SPL a couple of weeks ago. He said he was tired of all the hype. (this included the homosexual and atheism issues as well.) Our older boys are having a hard time figuring out what this has to do with hiking and camping and citizenship in general. I don't think there's a scoutmaster hour, let alone minute, that could help. I do think disclosing names of suspects is a potential issue for a boy to talk over with his citizenship in the community MBC, or maybe fodder for a venturer's ethics forum.

Glad George found out his faith means something. Kinda wish the SM feels comfortable with giving it a few more months. Maybe he did, but the boy finally came to terms on his own. It's odd how believing the world was created in a week is synonymous with theism. If this is a young earth, the human mind could certainly find a plausible naturalistic explanation for it.

For the love of God, RS, don't let your church fall for that delusion! Guess where predators gravitate since the BSA has had YPG in force for three decades? That's right, go-it-alone youth groups. Guess How many churches have a national registry of "do not hires" for the ones who weren't convicted? How many cross denominational boundaries? Guess whose model churches follow to keep their youth safe? That's right BSAs. Granted your church should have a youth group for the kids who aren't suited for scouting. Add criminal background checks into the budget. Get someone who's good at the religion thing. Have them cooperate with your boys for every outdoor experience. Just don't have them throw the baby out with the bath water.

Won't my 1st class patch from 30 years ago suffice?

So this cut-off pre-dates the national drinking age, which was what I thought it was all about. Thanks for the history lesson. Scenario: a couple get engaged, one turns 21, the other is between 18 and 20, and they decide to "fly under the radar" for several months until they are married or the youngest turns 21. The older one submits adult application, the younger recharters -- both to the same unit. Nobody tents with anybody or fornicates even outside of crew activities. Someone blabs to the SE. Whose name get's added to the "special" list? The newly recruited fraternizing adult, the Advisor? the CC or COR?

This sometimes works backwards for venturing. Backpacking in wilderness recreation areas has a federally imposed limit of 10 per group. If your hike plan takes you to the interior of the area (which, with trained venturers, it probably will) you need to be prepared to split up in an emergency. So you need 4 adults. That leaves space for six youth. Boils down to a ratio of 2:3. Our Seabase contingent got two small boats instead of one large. That meant we split 10 youth and needed two adults on each boat. The captain is also there. That was a 3:5 ratio. Not sure what the effective ratio is for Philmont or Northern tier. On the other hand, older youth are more comfortable working with adults (rather than having adults do everything for them), and patrol method is not part of venturing, so it all evens out. Certainly, if you have a routine outing with four patrols of disciplined boys, two adults could easily manage the weekend's activities. Keep in mind that if a patrol has made a solid plan for a day hike, a 0:8 ratio is reasonable! Your boys might just be there in a couple of years.

I've had numerous boys complain to me about their "terrible" SPL at month 1, only to have nothing but praise for the guy at month 6. Dashed expectations are par for the course. So are pleasant surprises.

We made NPR! Big leagues!

Tenting is a non-issue. Generally, youth want to be with their buddies on venturing outings. The way this young man is making his request it's clear that sleeping arrangements are no matter. This is a matter of "status". These kids are worried about being crew members as adult+youth while engaged. They want to be continuously members in good standing with the BSA.

Thanks for the summary. Although I'm not as strident as f8033, I also am not as casual as your SM was. I think this was a good call on the SE's part.

SMBradley, FYI, if you type "Fratenization Policy" in the search box on this page, it will bring up some older threads on this matter. Not sure how much any of those will help your decision more than what's been posted here, but give them a read just in case. IMHO preparing for marriage is not the same thing as "peer-based social relationships". (Even Facebook makes the distinction!) I can see a lot of benefits engaged to couples being under the magnifying glass of the crew. E.g., how does he perform as a leader in relationship to his fiance? Is the same kind of leadership expected in his marriage? How does her life in the crew inform on what she's bringing to the marriage? For some advisors, all of that may be an agrument for asking the older of the couple to sit out until they're both adults, for others it may be precisely why they took up Venturing in the first place. Anyway, since positions on camp staff will come into play here, I'd call your SE and ask how to best support the both of them. I'm pretty sure the answer will be, "Don't be ridiculous, keep them both registered. Give the boy an adult app for his birthday."

E732, My CO is a Presbyterian Church. Presbyterian ministers were players in the whiskey rebellion. Consumption of hard liquor is a grand tradition (although the Women's Temperance Union did manage to, well, temper it.) Smoking, well, tobacco made this country what it is. So, unless the boy insists on inhaling Cuban cigars, it is sort of duty to country. If he doesn't believe in God, how can he do his duty to it? I would encourage the boy to stop the charade. Or, get serious with his maker because all of that drinking and smoking is doing nothing to forestall an encounter with Him. I wouldn't sign. I would ask him to think sincerely about what's being put before him, and have him come back in a month so we can continue the discussion. Even if he decides scouting's not for him I'd enjoy keeping in touch with the lad.

If a young married woman wants to be treated as an adult, she can join the ladies quilting club or whatever. If she wants to top rope with her single buddies and maybe wrap up her silver award on the weekends, I'm treating her as a youth. Meanwhile if her husband wants to help me get some high schoolers on the right track for planning a trip, I'm using him. He'll either be my coadvisor or (if my SE yanks my chain) my consultant - no paperwork necessary. Marriage is not the same thing as a guy culling the crew for dates on the weekend. I'm not messing with holy institutions. Not ever.

Venturers who are less connected with our troop have less trouble with the venturing oath, but value oaths in general a lot less. Not sure if this policy will change that. We're still blending cultures that have developed on different trajectories for 13 years of the youths' life.

Great, if you get a chance to talk the "Eagle or don't drive" dads off that ledge, you would be doing yourself a favor. Point out to the dads that a boy who can drive to his MBC is an asset, and that you'll let the dads know if their boy is showing responsibility consistent with someone you'd trust behind a wheel. Putting fellowship first over rank advancement will enable you to have both! Encourage the boys to pick MBs that suit their interest rather than get them to that next oval patch faster.

We really try not to make a distinction between new parent vs. seasoned parent jobs. Maybe we're just not that organized. A new dad might be just a few hoops away from certified range instructor, so guess who's getting paperwork for MBC for rifle and shotgun shooting. One of our dads is pretty sharp when it comes to marketing: he got our recruiting drive. I came in with a firm belief in forced marches in bear country: our troop suddenly had a backpacking coordinator. As I learned about youth leadership, I passed on a lot of what I did in year 1 to the SPL or JASM in year 2. We do try to get new parents to sit in on boards of review. We welcome new dads to the back of the kitchen for the spaghetti dinner fundraiser. The fact is, we accept that the boy-lead model has ups and downs every year as different parents come in with new visions of how that should work.