qwazse

T2E, the counter-reformation is a grand part of that tradition. I'm sure some of the church board members think it's their turn to bring it about again! SMW, don't write off those travelling pastors. By virtue of their having moved around a lot, they can bring a truly catholic perspective to the picture. This summer, at an Eagle court of honor, I met one of the priests of a local Catholic CO. He was from Vietnam and had some unique scouting experiences as a child. I hope the troop will give him more opportunities to share in their program. The point is that for some people, you have to say "I talked to Father ___ and Bishop ___, about this very thing, and we're going a long with his suggestions." On one level, it's stupid. You and your committee have are smart people, and should be able to say that you all thought about it, and whatever policy you came up with made the most sense based on the teachings of the Church. (It's not like they are locked in a closet someplace.) But, some people won't regard your decision until a holy man is involved.

To avoid seeming like cannibals, some also punctuate well. Let's eat, Grandma!

"EDGE is a teaching skill, but if the boy only teaches because he gains advancement, what's the big deal?" Resist. Resist. Resist. Can't do it ... EDGE undermines servant leadership from step 1. Explain. This presumes that you have something someone else can't get any other way. Now, that does happen from time to time. (For example for some fundamental process, you may come up with an English acronym that nobody else knows of and your Korean scout can't figure out!) In terms of scout skills, that simply isn't the case. Servant leadership says, "Let's find a common reference. Do you have your book?" and works from there. It encourages a person to believe that skill attainment is in the learner's own hand[book]s. It promises community with a wider body than just the teacher and student. When that community falls short (perhaps because the student doesn't read well or the publisher confounded the material -- at least for this individual), it offers the more intimate fellowship to step through the reference together. The first step to using the advancement program for the purposes of develop servant leadership is to abandon EDGE and provide your boys with the teaching method that lifted the West out of the Dark Ages.

I think, stosh, what's happening is that more venturers are actually getting involved with their summer camps. Those that express interest see how the OA does a bang-up job of giving back to their camps, and they want to be part of that. Or they are Arrowmen who know a guy or gal and are thinking "This is great, why can't they be here too?"

Easy E441, dhendron paid good money for that VLST course. He has to get his money's worth! Venturers (who were never were officially "venture scouts," and were once-upon-a-time Explorers more interested in outdoor stuff than career exploration) want to be respected for who they are. What that means varies widely. Some (like evidently the ones you met) want to be in OA, others want to be trusted to help serve other BSA units, others don't want boy scouts demeaning the awards they earn, others want to be treated as a different program and don't want anything "scout" associated with them. We adults really do have a tough time figuring it out. Venture patrols, that was easy. I think it was E92 who explained that they were what in our day was called "Leadership Corps". As soon as he did, I got it. We were the older boys in a troop who hopped in a car, found a site, did a service project, camped, cooked some insanely good food, caved, and came back and reported to the SM with a whole list of activities and program for the troop. Sometimes the SM tagged along. It's just an internal name that a troop can use to distinguish those boys. Who knows how many there are, really? But since patrols aren't supposed to overnight without an adult anymore, they are just rogue scouts. I sure do hope there are lots of them!

Like Paul said in the next sentence "Against such things there is no law." By implication every law is for such things. Reading the Bible so straightforwardly, however, might come as a disappointment to many "true Christians," who somehow got it into their heads (and DW's) that the concept is exclusive to their religion.

Let's hear it for district reps who take the BS out of the BSA!

Advancement just starts the first level of servant leadership ... 1. Learn to tie knots. Get a signature in a book. 2. Make sure everyone in your patrol can tie knots. 3. See somebody who is having trouble tying knots, show them how. 4. Walk around with a rope in your pocket, approach a stranger and say, "Hey check out this knot." 5. See something that needs built/repaired with knots, get your "knotty disciples" to build/fix it. ... x. Make the world a better place using your obsession with knots.

Some grandpas in our neighborhood are gonna be stoked as well. Got two this weekend. Your grandson's project sounds like something I wished one of our boys would have done. The park he fixed up was nice, but a little removed from his talents and interests.

I find that terribly disrespectful. I too was a member of a Catholic Troop that had the very same requirements; my boys and I are no longer members of that unit. We joined a Methodist Troop that respects our religious differences. There isn't anyone on the planet who hasn't heard the "good news," this means that if someone isn't Christian (or Catholic) it's because they choose not be. Our current SM is Catholic; he also left the Catholic Troop because he didn't like the policy of forcing religion on to others (He had this crazy idea that people were given free will for the purpose of allowing them to exercise it and that included freedom to choose a religious preface.) Bottom line: You may end up running off your catholic membership as well as your non-Catholic membership. K. I've found a few "unreached" on the planet. Some of them in the pew next to me! Be that as it may, I find coerced invitations counter to the spirit of the gospel. I had a Jewish friend take this issue up with his Catholic CO. They asked him to just drive the boys to mass, and he and any boys who didn't want to attend could wait outside or run errands and come back.

Yep, one or two on this forum have typed a harsh word in the heat of the moment. It might have exargerrated how badly you felt at the moment, but hopefully the replies it generates will be of use to some scouts and scouters down the road. Venturing is a heady brew. So is a week with a solid patrol-method troop. It's easy to lose patience with folks who don't have that vision. Learning how to be a little less blunt is an ongoing skill. And practicing "I'm sorry" and "I was wrong" is tough. (It got easier once I got married, but if I were you, I'd just practice in a mirror for a few more years.) Establishing who is eligible to vote is a very important part of parliamentary procedure. Your troop might need to think about that. A problem like that is certainly something our troop committee would want to hear about from any board of review of a fellow going up for his palm.

Sounds like a sinister plot to me.

One more thing to consider ... some of us don't think SPL's are necessary until a troop has 4 or more patrols to coordinate. So, if we're right, you were effectively running for a position your troop didn't need. Your platform seemed to be making stronger patrols, which might just as simply be done by NOBODY being SPL and ASPL! Then the PLs and APLs would have to put forth real effort to keep the troop running. (E.g., they might have to rotate leading the meeting, set-up, and closing.) If that is true, then if, because of tradition, everyone is insisting that there be SPL/ASPL then you only want figureheads in those positions so that the PLs step it up and do what needs to be done to make your troop strong.

In our general interest crew, some really good neighbors ... Sportsman's Club Owner/NRA Range Safety Officer Ex-Military Officer/Climbing Enthusiast Roofer/Climbing Enthusiast Mom who teaches the girls backpacking hygiene. Cub/boy-scout moms willing to camp with us (even though their kids aren't venturers). Coffee shop owner. (Sure, I make can espresso anywhere, but I ain't accomodating each venturer's favorite mocha-java-mango-vanilla-latte.) Historic cemetery CEO with 2400 military grave markers. (Gives us a district-wide service project to manage some evening before Memorial day.) Mom who hunts for gear at garage-sales. Dad with five kayaks. Property owners near really nice trails!

Well, you lose some, and then you lose some. That smarts, but once you get beyond the discouragement, you need to relax and think about what didn't appeal to the younger boys. Personnally, I think a 6 minute speech would have turned me off! But here are some things that I've seen to be off-putting in other boys ... Incessant practical jokes. Cussing and off color jokes. Obsession with the opposite sex. Lack of troop pride. Only shakes some boys' hands before meeting starts. Chances are you can come up with one or two others that may or may not apply. Then you need to decide if you need to work on any of them. Then pick one, and try to polish that rough edge a little. This has nothing to do with running again, it has to do with milking an experience for all it's worth. As for wrapping up those badges, that's a great plan! Rack up a palm or two. Then as you pick your crew (sounds like you have a good one in mind) look to work on your Ranger Award. In the process you will be a great help to your troop and crew and be on your way to that NOA award.

Think of it this way: once the boys complete this hike, would you be comfortable with them doing the same thing on their own in any other environment you all hike in throughout the year? Personally, I know I can get lost using a map with street names ... I know how to "get found," and it usually relies on my ability to find north and orient the map. So there is some method to your madness.

I can't imagine SM minding you stepping in on this. (Especially if parents are giving him cross-talk.) I've unilaterally altered hike plans when I realized the PLC wanted to wrap it up after 3 miles while the youngn's wanted (and were fit) to hike at least twice that. SM and ASMs didn't balk (I knew they wouldn't, unless there was a serious issue that I hadn't considered.) My line: "When you get home, you can cry to Momma that Mr. Q made you hike the whole afternoon and kept you from idling away at camp. Let me know what she says."

And ... none of them have to run for O/A. Make it very clear to the BOYS that it should not count for their camping nights. Don't explain it to them. Have them REFER to THE BOOK. List their campouts. Cross off any that don't match the requirements. Make it clear that their list is on their honor. *Reference* the first step in learning any scout skill -- including tracking advancement. And yes, as IH, you have the right to do that because your people are paying for the roof and the lights. Make it clear that you are perfectly fine with them not having a program that gives a boy a fair chance at 15 legitimate camping nights every two years, but you are not fine with calling chicken tracks eagle feathers.

Your best strategy for roundtables: always bring someone from your committee along. That way there is overlap in case you miss something. Moreover, there's someone on the ride home who can help you sift through any ideas that were bantered about. Yes, BALOO for an Eagle really is flagellation with a wet noodle. Thanks for your service, and enjoy those outings with your son.

I think "first book" was intended instead of "first chapter". And that's part of what Genesis offers ... That no matter how incredible God may be, Man is equally incredible, "imperfect" has become too polite of a term. Man breaks covenants, destroys relationships, kills then boasts about it, gets rescued from calamity then curses his sons while drunk, builds absurd monuments to his greatness, sneaks around, negotiates compromises, assaults angels, or while being rescued by angles disdains their advice, builds absurd patriarchies that drive females to acts against their own bodies. In short, Man is not a scout. The book ends with The People being subsumed into a great and noble culture (through the mercy of a once cast-off son). Most likely they will become one more glyph on some Egyptian monument. Then in the next book, God comes along and says, "Have I got a deal for you ..."

If the bridge any longer, you guys would be in trouble for digging too deep a trench so the rope would hang freely! Pity you didn't interpret G2SS the way these folks did: Or these guys:

Congratulations to scout for planning an awesome day! Make sure he arranges for sufficient coffee and snacks for the two adults who will wait for them patiently back at camp.

All the best with the new charter! "Even the non-scout members of the crew, i.e. the gals!, will eventually ask the question, why do we always have to check with the troop before we plan an activity?" Yep. After a year of trying to work around each others' schedules, the SM and I looked at each other and concluded "This is ridiculous!" There would always be postponements that would cause our schedules to overlap anyway. When that happened the kids sorted it out. THEY made sure the necessary leadership was divided appropriately. (More often than not, the SPL and PL's would stick with the troop.) The youth seem to have a really good sense about when to share an activity, and when each unit should go their own way. So the SPL and Crew President are to encouraged to compare notes. When they don't, they stay separate; when they do, they coordinate. I think that little bit of independence made us run smoother. There seem to be enough adults willing to support both programs. The current SM wants to stay in his position for a while, CA suits me, and the boys seem to be taking the lead as well as always. We're two units (three if you include the pack) who happen to help each other from time to time. Would venture patrols serve the same purpose? If BSA were co-ed, probably.

E92, you do know that I did not intend to pick on you personally? Of course every DE is different, and some can sift through the smoke because they've experience scouting on most of its many levels. E441, to your points: 1. Varisty: no women. Typically in our area, the sports crews are ski clubs or specialty sports. 2. Sea scouts: they would be who I would send my crew to call if they wanted a barge. They would come to my venturers if they want to backpack. My point exactly. 3. Not sure what happens in your neck of the woods, but I know of no church youth group that is truly youth led. I have Jewish friends whose kids go through personal growth programs that challenge them like the Religious Bronze award or Trust Award. Christian kids who go through same thing are strikingly few. Simply put, youth groups may be ministering to youth, but they are often not "youth getting ministry done." Venturing offers youth leaders the opportunity to guide kids in doing just that. 4. Hobbies: oh let's see we have some bag-pipers, two of whom earned BSA medals of honor. I told you about the LARPers. There are reinacters. Shooting sports crews. (Yes, when all they do is discharge firearms, that's a hobby, or an art, or a sport. Thanks for the range saftey officers, but your sharp aim doesn't make one High Adventure). Venturing gives them a "big tent" where they can share their talents to make a better community and grow up to be thoughtful and caring adults. Once you are in it, you will begin to appreciate it more. Besides, if we extended your argument downward, maybe we should get rid of about 100 merit badges. Especially those STEM ones. What's a boy scout need to bother with programming languages anyway?

"The failing of troops to provide a good older scout program motivates the adults to start venturing crews as a way to keep the older scouts in the program. " Our crew started for the opposite reason. The troop was providing a good older scout program. Then Son #1 and his thirteen y.o. buddies go blabbing at school about what a great time they were going to have at Seabase in a couple of years. The girl scouts at the table wanted in on the gig. The only way it was possible was if they went with a crew. The youth discovered they liked working together, and it kept going. It was the youth who kept me in the game. If a DE said my CO "needed" a crew, we would have brushed him off just like you did. If the young women in your community aren't asking for this sort of thing your troop is doing, it is definitely not worth the effort to pull one of your scouters off a troop or a pack to start a crew. I've met a couple of SMs who gave up doubling as Advisor, because the only person who told him there was a need was some pro. (Note to DEs: if all you are is about this year's numbers keep nudging SMs to burnout. If you really care about the long-term venturing program, cut the crap.)