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Hate to break it to you, but that expectation was always there. Awards were never intended to be for the elite 1 in 1000 venturers. My take: I'm telling my youth that I expect them to be growing. As they do, I would be honored if they talked to me about how that's happening for them. From there it's just a matter of paperwork. So far they ain't biting.

I could envision the hypothetical Lone Scout raising funds for his council -- No strings attached. I could then see that scout benefiting from those funds by applying for a camper-ship that would be awarded without consideration of how much the boy raised. There are boys who just care about helping fellow scouts who they've never met.

P18A, a functioning UC, when "on", is always a phone call away, and can tap a number of seasoned scouters throughout the district to address any given unit's novel concerns. (Or, sometimes, can frankly tell members of a unit that they have a problem that will only be solved when people decide to hold one another in higher esteem than they are currently willing.) His/her presence at meetings is merely to make unit leaders comfortable with giving him that call. I would like to propose that the underlying BSA model is broken. There are too few competent UCs. As mentioned before, many UCs wear to many hats, so all of the positions they fill are compromised. Many folks who could be UCs barely have time to make it to district roundtable. Let alone get trained for a position. They don't have time because their units demand a lot of attention. There are funds to raise, advancements to track, pwd tracks/camp boxes/klondike sleds/trailer shelves to build, schedules to arrange, meetings to fret over, etc ... Therefore, adults commit to being Cubmasters (or assistants), Scoutmasters (or assistants), Advisors (or assitants), Den Leaders (or assistants), Committee Chairs (or assistants) for years on end. Let's work from youngest to oldest part of the program ... DL's can't free up more time because they are running point rather than assisting a den chief (or two or three). CM's can't free up more time because they are running point rather than assisting a senior den chief (eg. a JASM or Venturer who specializes in youth ministry). SM's can't free up more time because they are running point rather than assisting a SPL and his PLC. Advisors can't free up more time because they running point rather than assisting the crew president and his/her officers. CC's can't free up more time because they are hearding adults rather than assisting, a committee comprised of a senior den chief, SPL, Crew President, (and maybe Historians, Scribes, Librarians, and Quatermasters). [*]The majority of senior youth see no substantial place for themselves in the realm of unit leadership. (It's crowded with adults!) So they leave, reinforcing the cycle of adults bailing out a leadership-poor program. [*]Thus, on a district level, your best potential UCs -- those who, through serving, get a birds eye view of the scouting landscape -- are stuck in bloated adult-led committees. They have rarely seen real youth leadership, so they have no baseline with which to encourage other adults in pursuing it. Their larger experience is seeing adults work with (or don't work with) other adults to make scouting work as youth leadership get's removed from the equation. So, the advice they give is not the advice that a unit leader who truly values youth leadership needs. Fix the model. Find more competent UCs.

More interesting: is this a "back door" for girls to enter the program at cub and Boy Scout ages? Frankly I could use a few more youth who "get" the science behind map and compass before I tray to teach it.

Don't sweat it. This is just Learning for Life re-cast with a little more obvious application of "Scout" language. Smokey Mountain saw a need. It's filling it. The program that st0ut17 deftly laid out, is troop-centric, which caters to about 1/4 of STEM Scouts' population.

It sounds like you're in a "when in Rome" mashed up with a "it's just a piece of paper" situation. Kind of like when I was made crew advisor, it was an "on paper only" kind of thing (I even felt that of the adults we could choose from I was least qualified for it), and I pushed back saying "I hate paperwork too much to fill it out for nothing." The best you can do in cases like these, is set the example. Get to know the campground managers. They often know of places you could take the boys for an outpost camp. Encourage the group to respect Mom, but when your arrive at "glamground" you set your campsite on the fringe ... the darkest corner of the grounds or just throw your pack on a picnic table. Stop by in the morning, give them a map with a meeting point marked on it, and say "Rendesvous here at 9:45". Prepare dessert at your campsite. Or lash together a small gadget -- or even a large one. Stand up after dinner and say "Who wants to go on a night hike?" Over time, as you reveal to the boys "your kind of crazy", challenge them to plan something similar. If Mom is willing to keep up with you, always ask "Isn't this fun? See the smiles on their grubby little faces?" If she's not keeping up, well, you've just got the time you need to work the program with your youth. Fellowship with your committee. Learn the language. Get your head around the culture. Don't be afraid to try a conversation that you will eventually fail at. This is "the long road", and you should only take it if your vision for this group of boys will sustain you. Eventually your committee will come around. Or you all will compromise. Or, the CC can find a different SM whose vision matches hers, and you can take scouting elsewhere.

Trees are a pretty good idea most days. Since you car camp, don't skimp on rope and stakes. You'll go through a few before you figure out what works best for you. But pay attention to which trees and the season. A couple of years ago at this time, I strung one between two very tall oak trees. However, this is when they begin to drop their acorns! Think hiding behind a target on the sling-shot range and you get the idea . Except nobody yells "fire" when the next volley is about to drop .

If your site has decent trees, rope for a ridge line and guy lines for the corners is all you need to support a decent size tarp. The trick is to tie "stops" in your ridge line so the center of your tarp stays stretched. If you're in the open, you'll want a set of poles and decent stakes to replace the trees. Walking sticks will do if you aren't setting up a base camp. You can either rig an a-frame or lean-to pretty easily. With a little origami, you can get by with one pole and fashion a shelter that's taller on the door side and tapers down to your feet. I don't worry about bugs, anything that flies in can fly right out. (But, I'm a far cry north of you.) Of course all that applies to when I'm feeling really patient and have found a decent picnic table worth sleeping on! (Cots don't survive me ) Generally, I just lay the tarp on the ground, throw down my bag on one third of the tarp, crawl in, and if it rains roll over the other two thirds. (Or pull the other two thirds over me.) Boom done.

I think one of the most significant flaws in this organization is conflating leadership with a pach on the sleave. If you want to start leading, love your brother scouts and take care of them. Some PLs will lead others will just manage. The managers will get by just fine if the boys are caring for one another (i.e., if they are leading). The leaders might not manage all that well, but because they care, they'll be fine regardless.

Check out old articles of Boy's Life and Scouting Magazine. (They have online versions.) Definitely float what you got by your boys. If you get mostly "thumbs up" on a recipe, incorporated it. Have fun working your ticket.

Yeah, convincing parents that you know the boys' limitations and have the good sense to pick a safe place for them to operate in real patrols is rough. Parents have a really tough time letting go. I see it at sports too. Everyone wants to be the coach and captain, especially on the teams that have really good coaches and captains! BTW ... you could have a crew of 14-15 y.o. venturers experiencing the same thing - even though, aside from the few hours of age-appropriate challenge, they're tasked with little more than what you would assign to your 12 year old scouts! My line to parents (especially those whose sons don't have a POR): "Leadership stars now. Unless we squelch it."

Getting 30 older boys to do anything in unison during fall sports season is nigh impossible. Think about it this way: if they were 4 patrols of tightly knit boys, at the PLC, three of them would report that they weren't going to the council camporee because they had commitments elsewhere (football Friday, soccer Saturday, helping with bonfire that evening, camping after the bonfire, maybe inviting their girlfriends to hang out, church picnic on Sunday). You'd say, "very well then as long as you aren't robbing liquor stores to buy drugs .... And [to the patrol that's camping independently] I'll gladly review your camp plan and make sure you have anything you need. Oh and if those girls really like to hike and camp, here's the number of a crew advisor you all should should call." Then thank the one patrol that decided to come to the camporee for their contribution to the troop and ask them what they would special for their post-taps cracker-barrel. Needless to say, if your SPL is very influential, you would be coaching him to have that attitude.

See if you can get together with the new DL and make those calls. Use speaker-phone if possible. That way you can both know what's happening instantly. And let the parents know you're backing your DL. He or she says "Hi __, I'm just callingto touch base. I'm with CM Daped01 on speaker. We missed you and __ last night and wanted to make sure you all are doing well." That way there's a little bit more respect conveyed. It could be as simple as the school had a one-off evening meeting, or that you all picked a bad night because all the boys signed up for something that night every week. You need to find out so you can determine how to best adjust.

You are both right. Sort of. Pay attention to what your boys want. Make it clear that they can cross-over any time between AOL (which happens to be your banquet) and May. If they want to do pack stuff, let them stay. If they want to do troop stuff, let them crossover. If you are all going to the same troop, just make sure the boys have all the info they need to sign up for summer camp in a timely fashion.

Welcome to the forums, G.B. Let your CC and your COR know the details just in case they see your name in any public notices. unless hey have a thing against traffic scofflaws on the run, you should be fine.

Agreed. These kids are finding hiking and camping independently to be truly important. So, they make spending that $20 on a weekend in the woods a priority over a registration card in their pocket -- the cost of which goes to background check a cadre of adults who they don't need or want around anyway. They pick adventure over Venturing. What a shock! You depression era folks can go say "been there, done that", but that's RS's point. Most of us did scouting when there was a slush fund (inherited, or hours learning the family business, mom's fundraisers, or working odd jobs, it really doesn't matter from a boy's perspective) that could cover the cost of every activity a boy had time to join. But, what I'm seeing is: teens' free time has remained fixed (maybe grown 'cause fewer have religious obligations), their school time stayed fixed (maybe a little more summer prep- work, or lots more for the geniuses who take advanced placement, or the flunkies who are assigned to summer remedial classes). Anyway, they have about the same time to dedicate to extracurriculars as before. And most of them want to pick a balanced menu. However; their earnings potential has decreased, while participation fees have increased. That means their calculus includes a time-per-dollar calculation that very few of my buddies ever made. About the only thing that seems to contained cost per time involved: video games.

R.S. - That is happening again with the rise in registration fees. I have a number of crew who drop and sign up part-year when there is an activity they want to attend.

Here's a question for you to get beyond the "kicking around in my head" phase. Ask it of the SPL: Do your boys have a desire to be specialists? Do some take pride in being the troop marksman, others the athlete, others the mechanic, others the scientist, others the artist? If the SPL says yes, then follow-up with this question: Do you think the PLC would like to come up with a way for boys to prove they own such titles by earning a particular set of related non-required badges? Should it be something that can be put on the temporary insignia parts of the uniform? If yes, then build from there. Your boys might decide against more bling on their uniforms. If so, maybe suggest a wall space where you would put pictures/avatars of the boys as they succeed under a given category. A poster like this would serve the dual purpose of outlining the MBs by categories your boys are proud of and then maybe at the bottom have a note, "If you've liked earning these MBs, you might want to look into the requirements for the National ___ Award." Let us know what you come up with. (Links with pictures would be lovely.)

Temporary insignia may be placed on the right pocket, or the back of MB sashes. Encourage your boys to take advantage of those in their award design. An easy one would be ribbons with a button hole.

Jim, hang in there. Clearly some parents didn't get the memo. It sounds like you spend a lot of time trying to be polite. There's nothing wrong with asking "So, what will you do to help ?" Give the parent a call and let them know that you'll miss their boy and when they have time to contribute to the life of the pack, you'd be happy to see them. Or don't. Tell the DL her life just got a little easier.

Or, you could teach your son how to respectfully disagree with these old farts. He could request to talk to the SM. Or since he had his SMC's. He could request a BoR. At the BoR, he can say what about this process he felt was unfair. Based on your description ... 1. Knots, well yeah his bad. Every 1st class scout should know his knots, but now that he does, he feels qualified to take his patrol hiking and camping. 2. He finds it hard to believe that misplacing the titles of two declarations betrays any unwillingness to live by those declarations. 3. Sock selection was added to the requirements, and he thinks any objective measure of scout spirit would have nothing to do with standard-issue socks. Furthermore, it undermines the SPL's leadership by denying him the privilege of organizing uniform inspection according to the BSA inspection sheet . In other words, it is highly unlikely that this level of critical spirit of uniforms is, well, uniform. Now, Mama bear, with all due respect. This is your boy's journey, and just like in a sport with a bad referee at a game, a screaming parent just winds up ejected from the field, and their team given a penalty. (Can ya' tell I'm gearing up for announcing tonight?) If he doesn't want to be that confrontational, then ask him if he still wants to be considered a 1st class scout by the folks in this troop? If so, tell him it looks like the only way for him is through this problem (i.e. keep trying). Maybe ask for the 4th SMC with all 3 ASMs!

Have them draw their organizational chart. Compare it to the one in the troop committee challenge manual. That said, if someone wants one of the jobs, let them have it.

SN, my specific suggestion to the GS mom was to have a couple of guys set up a demonstration that she could walk the cadets through and the boys could tell stories about what works (or not) for them. Conversation fell flat. I really don't know what's rattling around in peoples' heads, so I decided to not press the subject until I heard other folks' experience. The young lady is one of my crew, and she knows the topic from from older siblings and friends (mostly venturers), but never had time to participate in the activity. The stars haven't lined up with her and my female adult leaders. So, the cadets will have a 45 minute lecture which will actually be pretty good. But, decades of girls getting "pretty good" generates a future majority of non-participants. Tried to get my crew president to fit in a "practice day" with her last month, but again: time constraints and the general weirdness of an advisor saying, "You should call her." I think that "plan B suggestion" came off as "too much, too little, to late." I guess since our youth have not bought into Venturing awards, the notion of helping each other with cross-organization projects like these sounds alien. Whatever. I'm really not trying to figure out the kids here. I'm trying to figure out the adults and how far up the chain this attitude goes.

Well, s717, if the young lady is an avid outdoor cook and nobody in our troop has ever tried anything mor complicated than Pop tarts and Ramen .... mOst definitely yes! Som #2 and I just heard this story. If any of you in WI have an opportunity to invite this young lady to talk to your unit, open your doors to her!

Actually they lined up a male venturer for the aquatics area. He was the only one available with guard certification. This not an issue where safety will be compromised. It's more a matter of lining up a teacher from personal experience.