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SSScout, that could be a helpful article for C23's scout. We want to help a boy manage his doubts. Maybe he doesn't believe in God as folks have spelled out to him, but through helping others or being kind to animals he acts in a way that any God he'd respect would honor. We've coached our boys in similar situations on how to put words to those thoughts. Most of our boys who don't practice religion have been positively influenced by Christians. So often they can talk about those influences and how they apply what they've learned from their Christian friends (being a cheerful giver, helping the poor, even your enemy, etc ...). I can see something similar happen if our boys were on the periphery of some other religion. At the same time we encourage them to not say anything they don't believe. The BoR isn't looking for someone who prays 10 times a day and can rattle off 1000 verses. The only boy who should have a problem with Eagle is one who believes religion is a complete waste of time and BSA shouldn't encourage it in any boy.

Well, start by saying your SMC will happen after the scouts 3rd consecutive meeting and first outing attended. You need to see how these boys handle a weekend without their drug of choice. 'Nuff said. The boys need to convince you that they care about growing beyond this. And as the new SM, you really need to get to know these candidates. Leave open the possibility of meeting with a couple of boys at the same time, obviously with an ASM who would be willing to listen to the conversations and help you process what was said. Tune out the parents (have your CC run interference if you have to). These are 17 year-olds. By now they should be able to speak for themselves.

What SSS said, plus nobody has to make rank by B&G ... Only those who make a good faith effort to do each of the requirements.

The things that make me very nervous are 6-month or longer transitions. Really? Ask your son now what kind of mathematics he'll be able to do by the end of May. Betcha he could do it now if he tried. It doesn't hurt to tell your troop (adults and youth) they are at grade C. Just let them know what it will take to be grade A. E94's SM saw there was a problem, covered for it, then basically told the SPL "never again." Honestly, the boy's age made no difference. I've seen this happen to a 15 year old SPL. There's no way of knowing in advance who has the skill and who doesn't. You gotta give them that one shot. D01, long leash principle. Let your boys know that you want to let the leash out quickly. That way they can herd sheep while you just whistle from the opposite hillside. The whole "spectrum not a condition ..." rhetoric is a quote from one troop. I wouldn't blow it out of proportion. The title should have been "So, your troop fails at scout-led?" because it basically suggests how to get back on track. It's not really about how scout-led might look for 11 year-olds on their first campout vs. 15 year-olds gearing up for next year's super-activity.

Koolaid ... it's still a thing. Oh yeah!!! Like Pack, said, it's a clever business model. As such, it can be manipulated to protect unneeded positions in the face of shrinking membership. Or, it can be used to multiply the efforts of diverse volunteers in a variety of situations. The real issue is figuring out what is being supported by the revenue to council. If they only exacted 1%, but was for programs that merely made more adults look like third-world dictators, I'd spit nails. Actually, I'd ask my COR to attend council coordinated meetings and spit nails on our behalf. On the other hand, if one CSDC in a needy area is being fully underwritten by five other CSDC's, I might sit on my hands. It's just like I teach my Sunday School kids: when you go to pick a church to join, ignore the order of service, the music, the "quality youth program", the statements of faith, etc ... and ask to see the annual financial statements. If what's going out is going where you think it should, then that congregation is worth your time and $$.

Well, we on the SM/ASM side have tried to help boys provide a meaningful dialogue on this before sending them to a BoR. Even our least religious scouts have been able to make some connection between implicit beliefs and their sense of morality. So, since I have never dealt with a scout in this position, take what I have to say with a grain of salt ... First of all, there is no "magic question" that will help a boy re-think his stance the night of a BoR. Nor should there be. It's okay if a scout who is godless suddenly realizes that Duty to God is part of the award. But it's wrong to try to fix it then and there. That said, here are some things we ask in scoutmaster conferences, and maybe you want to be sure someone goes over with your scout this month ... What is morality? Where do your sense of morals come from? Why would you want an award that affirms your "Duty to God"? What to you think of other scouts' pursuit of religion? How important is it to ensure another person's practice of religion as he/she sees fit? Do you ever look at everything around you as some kind of miracle? How important is it to you that the best explanation for all things excludes intervention from a higher power? There are also no "magic answers" that you should be looking for. This is an opportunity for the boy to decide if the values of scouting resonate with his values. Tell him that there are more important things than "fitting in" and accepting an award that dishonors his beliefs.

Thanks, E94. So, I think my bottom line is we wouldn't replace the "Trained" strip (for venturers that would be ILSC) with the NYLT strip. Somehow, the we'd try to fit both on the sleeve ... the NYLT strip taking the place of the brownsea strip, which according to you would be above the unit #s, and all other patches being moved down. However, since the NYLT strip (if it's the one that E441) referenced does look so much like a trained strip, I think putting it underneath the ILSC would be acceptable. But again, the venturer might be running out of "real-estate" on the sleeve. In which case, I'd opt for neat appearance and swap out the ILSC. So, C2116, your youth has options. Let us know what he chooses. (P.S. - Readers in internet land, please, nobody go to national crying for a definitive ruling on this. )

TAHAWK, all of that double-speak in the article is a PC way of saying "If your troop is making steady C's (adults uncomfortable in spite of youths' confidence), here's one possible strategy to change that ..." I agree that (lacking some real obvious behavioral disorder) adults replacing them as leaders is the wrong way to go. It is, in fact, allowing D grades (both adults and youth lose confidence in youth leadership) in some instances in hopes that they will make A's in other areas ... and maybe after they take remedial classes like ILST will they make high marks in those problem areas.

Oh, I remember that thread. Bead-envy, it's a nasty business. Back to the insignia issue. I might take back my glib statement about sewing it on the sleeve. Here's a diagram that puts the Brownsea strip below the unit numbers and above the position patch: http://www.scoutinsignia.com/brownsea.htm So, if the venture has both this and a Trained patch for his/her specific position, this is a way to present both. The insignia guide says nothing about it. So it's up to you to determine if wearing both patches is reasonably in compliance with current uniforming standards.

Ten minutes after midnight and I was promoting venturing to three young ladies, one of whom put our next meeting into her calendar. (At least that's what I think she did instead of tweeting about some creepy guy trying lure her into the woods.) A few more conversations like that, and we might be back to an A grade. (Refer to my reply to TAHAWK's post.)

Looks like a "trained" strip. Put it on the sleeve like it's a trained strip. E94, confused. Youth take WB, they get beads. Do you have youth staffing WB?

Let's stop trying to infer from pictures (for all we know, the boys were busy practicing for an arm wrestling competition and suddenly noticed their SM's needed help assembling a new tent that one of them just puchased!), and boil this down to brass tacks: There are times when A: adults are fine with youth leading, and the youth are confident that they can do it. B: adults are fine with youth leading, but the youth lack self-confidence. C: adults are uncomfortable with youth leading, in spite of the youths' confidence. D: adults are uncomfortable, and youth lack the confidence to lead. E: adults are uncomfortable in their own leadership as well as the youths'. I would argue that this is not a continuum, take a snap-shot of any unit, Pack, Troop (girl scout or boy scout), or Crew and they will be getting one of these grades. Just like school, once you start making A's you get it, they tend to self-perpetuate. The right mix of adults and youth and this you have a Grade-A unit every minute of every day in the life of your unit. But ... B's happen. Most adults know when the unit is coming home with B work. If your unit generally makes A's , most youth probably know when they are slipping too. It takes a little coaching/cheer-leading to get away from those B's. And sometimes on the youths' side it takes asking for help. (I find the latter problem with my crew a lot. It is very hard for a teen to admit they need help.) On the other hand, it's all too easy to be satisfied with a 3.0 average. C's are where most packs and dens are by design. You have boys who think they can do anything, and adults who have spent a decade pulling them back from the brink of disaster. So, we've built a program where crushing defeat is unlikely (except perhaps during the pinewood derby:rolleyes:). But at some point that mentality has to end. Jr. high's mature very quickly, and their confidence begins to be well-placed. Even if they will take multiple tries to get that fire lit, you have to let them try. D's are a bad place. And many of us look at a snapshot of a troop at its worst and give their entire program that grade. I think that's because if the sampling is representative, a unit isn't long for this world. A D-average unit is full of youth sitting on their hands, adults who are distant and unapproachable, and a bully or passive-aggressive manipulator (youth or adult) can run the program straight into the ground. Just like parents should be in panic-mode with a report card like this, a unit needs to scramble and get help. A few years before I joined my troop, my SM had an SPL donated to him from another troop so that his program could be revived. It seemed to be a fairly common occurrence. Not sure how often that happens now, but I haven't seen it in my district. E's also happen. Some of the posts in this forum refer to scouters who were called to their position by their church, or the poor den leader who just had the job dumped on them because everyone else took one step back! Training and teamwork can remedy that quickly, but an E doesn't even have to be due to anybody's fault. A fatality can put a leaders in a serious funk, as can repeated failures because of circumstances (increased expenses, job-losses in the community, adults spinning off new units to avoid personality clashes). In situations like this, the CO might need to scramble to change leadership. Or, God bless them, the youth dig deep and remind us of what we're all striving for. What seems like a continuum is really folks failing to make straight A's all the time. Now there are many don't like calling anything short of perfect marks a failure. Personally, I'd rather know my shortcomings and receive unconditional love, rather than a pablum of "Don't worry honey, nobody's perfect."

When I was a scout and wanted to take First Aid MB at summer camp, my SM told me to take it from the SM in the adjacent camp (a retired Army medic). Not sure if the camp director ever knew. I got a partial and had to follow-up by bringing a buddy for a victim to demonstrate with to his front porch.

It's not really profit in the private corporation sense of the word. District events take time away from pro's doing other things (like promotions to potential chartered organizations and fundraising), so staff time has to be paid for. If the event is at a council camp, more demands are put on the facilities and the ranger. Those costs have to be justified. This is also how districts evaluate the quality of an event ... #s willing to pay to participate. Two many years of a low-revenue event, and it's time to free up that calendar slot for something different. Now, my crew has hosted events (Memorial Day flag placement) and the district volunteers have used resources to circulate flyers at round-table and forward E-mails, etc ... They haven't charged us for any hard-copies they made, secretary time, etc ... although by rights they could. So, somebody else's FOS or camporee payments went into helping my venturers with their service project. The specifications for how much to charge for what is not an exact science. There's just an overall budget that has to balance at the end of the fiscal year.

2C, I think you're spot on. I just want to point out that delaying Eagle doesn't necessarily mean the older scout will stick around. Son #2 is the last of his den to remain active. None made Eagle. A couple left the troop due to extenuating circumstances. The rest dropped at various ages between 12 and 17. None of those who dropped transferred to the crew (even though some of them had girlfriends who were venturers). So, although wanting to make rank is a good reason to stick with the program, I don't see it as doing all that much for retention. Rather, I think that boys who are confident that they will stick with the program aren't necessarily in a hurry to make rank!

The camp director would have to convince me of the need for me to be an MBC at camp rather than going off somewhere with my crew or troop. It would be a tough sell. Couldn't the boys just get instruction at camp then get my # and follow-up with me when they get home? Understand that I am largely satisfied with our camps teen MBCs. They were well supervised and mostly competent.

Two words that some of you aren't gonna want to hear: Unit commissioners.

I wouldn't necessarily pin this on LDS. All politics is local, and I've seen every manner of adult leader try to pull these shenanigans. Get enough of them in one district and suddenly everyone thinks they've built the better mouse-trap. Rattling off quotations from the advancement guide won't get you anywhere. Just try to make a compromise where you can get a photocopy (or, these days, simply picture) of a blue card. Use it to find your counselor or requirements to complete. If the boy completes them, either get it from the SM for signature, have the MBC (if he's in-troop) ask to see the blue card, or have the MBC sign the BC copy. If the man wants more work for himself, let him at it. Bottom line: your boy will know he's doing the requirements and will have the dignity to ask to be recognized for it.

Awesome goals, just need one translation. What's a "nights away permit"? I suspect BSA has something(s) similar. Just curious to what it amounts to.

Don't worry Mash, It's all fine and good until a stumbling drunk kid sits down at your crew's campfire! Before that happens, next time (and it might be years before you'll deal with the same issue again) run it up the chain of command. It's natural to assume that the other unit is managing their own house wisely and will keep to themselves. I've seen enough situations where it's just better to act swiftly and get everyone to tow the line. Because this behavior is sufficiently rare, it's also easy to be blindsided -- as my co-leader was when our "campfire incident" happened. She let the kid's leader escort him back to his camp. I would have insisted he be taken to the medic's station, informed the camp director, and try to confirm that there was nobody passed out in the woods with alcohol toxicity. As it was, I took notes and forwarded the details to the director It doesn't sound like your situation was anywhere near that calamitous. But parents can be naive, a cooler is not a locker, boys see more than most of us realize, and nights can be very long. We all could use protection from our own stupidity from time to time.

Absolutely, the boy should have responsibility over his own blue cards Partial MB's may be lost by the boy, in which case he starts from square one. But they may be lost by the SM just as readily. My brother resents to this day that his SM left town with no forwarding address and all the troop's records of his advancement were lost. Your son should at least ask for a copy. And, the district should have a list of MBCs. It doesn't really matter if he goes to a different counselor to complete the badge.