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@@Hedgehog, I like the plan. Enjoy it. There is something to be said for having spent a weekend or two with a young woman before she decides to date your son! Yes, PDA is discussed in Venturing. It's fairly amusing. If you've got a crew of freshmen, they'll draft a bunch of regulations that they'll later come to regret. It does depend on the group. Growing up, ours spent a lot of time together ... as much as scouting. Most of us went to the same school, so we looked forward to weekend retreats. Mostly it was cabin camping. When it was tents, they borrowed the troop's gear. We built a lot of trust, just like a well-oiled troop does when the boys finally figure out leadership and integrity. So, we did a lot of stuff (mission trips, visit jails, etc ...). I could see us being trusted in large numbers on our own for a day (check-in at breakfast, dinner, and lights out). My kids' youth group .. not so much. Different schools, lots of newbies, etc ... So my kids use what they learned in scouting to make outings run smoothly. Anyway, I couldn't imagine our church tolerating much more than a 10:2 adult:youth ratio. However, I've seen other groups pull it off. But I think I steered us away from the point. What we are asking kids to do (e.g. the pic's from National with adults never too far away), is something that in the due course of time many will no longer see the point in doing. One of the images that needs to be part of the national promotion is the SM and ASM making for the nearest coffee shop while the boys plan an overland excursion to procure forgotten pierogies.

First, welcome! There is more "follow-your-heart" stuff to this than the program would lead you to believe. First, there is no harm in not getting a belt loop. Second absolutely encourage the parent and child to pursue this on their own. Finally, no, you don't have to bring the whole den again, but keep an open mind. If that family is into some sport that would be really fun for the boys to see, and few of you could make the time to join him, go for it!

Just from my experience ... There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good. The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this. "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance. As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning. Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it. Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

I understand. But, I can find ten times as many kids on our city streets unchaperoned for more cumulative hours a week than that. On a vacation week in Europe there are trains full of em gawking at the American kids being herded by their adult minders. You're presuming that the level of discipline among youth is always inadequate for them to travel in large numbers relative to the adults present. That's not the case. Now some infamous church gatherings in history have had a reputation for "more souls being conceived than saved", but that risk is hardly mitigated by excess adults. It just encourages our at-risk youth to avoid the influence of abstinent youth. If we cannot accept that our youth should arrive at a level of maturity to function independently overnight well before their 18th birthday, we will lose them as they go and exercise that developmentally appropriate function elsewhere.

Really @@NJCubScouter? Have you even counted the kids on a busy street corner unescorted?

Those boys deserved to be beaten with a stick. Or at least instructed that weekends like this are precious to trade in on anything but scouting. Son #1 and I have been fuming because our jobs tied us down while DiL was able to free up her extended weekend to go backpacking with here friends in in Dolly Sods.

The other thing is planning for storage. You want to plan for how much will be available, who you may have to share it with, etc ...

Welcome! By the way things get heated up, there's fire round here somewhere!

@@meyerc13, The problem with retaining Cubs is the same as the problem with recruiting Boys scouts. Boys don't know the "end game". They have no picture of what they'll be like at the end of the process. A t-ball player has a vision of being a baseball star like those guys on TV. He might never get there, but knocking one out of the park is always in the back of his mind. What does a cub have a vision of? It's often more meetings, more getting yelled at by even more adults, more pressure to bark for badges and medals, etc ... @@NJCubScouter mentioned the HA bases and others mentioned the various tech-outdoor opportunities ... Guess what every other youth organization worth their salt has? (BTW, check out the YMCA of the Rockies if you ever get a chance.) Your council has cope? My high school has a climbing wall and sends their freshmen to our council cope course for a day, so why should students bother bother with jumping through the BSA red tape for that bit of adventure? Our sportman's club is free to any interested kid on Wednesday nights. Every big ticket whiz-bang that BSA can offer, someone else can give to your kid with fewer meetings. Truth: most boys (and many girls, I figure) when they put a stick in a fire at age six are not imagining Seabase or Northern Tier or Philmont or the Jambo main stage. They are imaging they day when they and their buddies can put that stick in the fire without some adult badgering them ... that glorious day when they can walk off into the woods and laugh and play and build their own fort/sanctuary, swim in their favorite hole, and catch their own dinner and maybe be a hero to somebody, and then come home to a proud, trusting family and hang their pack at the end of the bed ready for their next outing. THAT'S WHAT WE OFFER. WHY AREN'T WE MARKETING THE TAR OUT OF IT?

I think you've found where you draw the line. The physical fitness follow-up can be done at home, if they missed. One of the other parents could plan a hike and cook-out for the boys who missed both days ... if they cared. Them not caring is not your problem. Getting back to the point where you're happy that a few boys nail down the program for advancement and the rest just tag along for fun, that's the only problem you have.

Asked, answered, but maybe not heard? http://www.scouting.org/filestore/mission/pdf/VOS_Spring_2014_Exec_Summary.pdf

Well, most hiking and camping -- independently or not -- tends to happen outside. The "independently" and "with your mates" are essential to what I think is the pinnacle scouting experience. Putting that vision in every division of the BSA is a way of giving youth a benchmark so that they know when they've arrived. It's hard to say you've arrived when all you're doing is exploring careers, or supplementing your school's feeble curriculum, pitching in on a service project, or even hopping on that train to Philmont when some adult is holding your ticket. But when you've stepped out your door, having made a good plan, vetted by a caring adult who wished you well and asked to stop by for after-action review when you get back ... that's when you know you've started really scouting.

@@NJCubScouter, thanks for identifying the author. When he was here, he always went by "Mike", but usually got his last name or E-mail in the memo somewhere. Would have been nice to see a surname ... at least in a byline.

So much for promoting a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience as hiking and camping independently with your mates.

Regarding Taps ... when sung I prefer it without an instrument. Regarding respectfulness, my uncle regularly visits the village his platoon liberated in France. He tells me when he goes there, he and his buddies feel like they are "one of their own" to the villagers. So, I'd say if you teach your scouts to treat our fallen as if they are their own ... whatever customs they'd reserve for theirs, they also give to ours ... that would be the greatest respect.

Nobody speaking here: I have a camp-box specifically for family camping trips! Technically, my wife's uncle built it, so he's the nobody.

MIB, thanks for the update, and my sympathies. I lost Momma at about your age and it's been a bit of a lonely road. I guess it's that way for most folks, but introducing the kids (one of whom is following in her footsteps in so many ways) to her from this side of Eternity is bittersweet. I would suggest that you have family and friends bring something for a scrapbook ... a quote, a story, a picture, or a patch/award she gave them. Something that helped them be a better person for having known her. Try to assemble it on a table at camp. The scouts can help with the collecting and glueing. Make a copy or two for different family to keep on their respective shelves. If there's a visitation evening, the boys are probably gonna want to all come together to pay their respects. Some of them might have never done anything like this before, so make sure that there's a committee member to explain whatever is customary for you all.

My rule #1: don't ask for a rule, you'll be stuck with it. I think a corolary is: don't be bothered when someone tells you how to raise your kids, pretty soon your kids will be telling you the same. Humans break rules. It's what they do. The fewer you have, the less they'll have to break, stick with the 12 points, be positive, and don't let the details bury you. Oh, and wear fewer hats ... Lowers the probability of leaving one somewhere.

I talked to several scouts and scouters and they did have fun. More importantly, they learned stuff that they could bring back to their units. You should contact your council office regarding some of the logistics. Each council fields its own contingent, and does things a little differently. It is a tent city, and councils used to buy new tents that they then used for their camps. That's all changed and the Summit has its own massive quartermaster with tents. Regardless, the boys don't bring their own tents. Whitewater is on the New River. Not sure the logistics of that or how many boys participated. I describe Jamborees as more like a scouting convention than summer camp. In months leading to the trip, a boy makes friends with boys from across your council. They meet several times to prepare. The council tries to pick some really good scoutmasters for these boys. (Rarely does that include the boys' own SM). So, much of the experience is about working with new leadership and sharing what you've learned to build a team who gets breakfast done, grabs a bag lunch, and tries to get the most out of their day. Most boys who go to Jamboree still want to go to their troop's summer camp that same year, so I encourage them to budget accordingly.

Just wanted to rephrase that last statement a little ... The usage is chosen to delineate regalia that belongs to the khaki or green shirt ... as both the O/A and the Wood-badge are available to venturers. I think this is also why "field" was chosen ... for those rare occasions where a venturer would wear a national uniform, but it wasn't "the uniform". In venturing circles, I have not heard "Class A/B" being used. That was the other thing that baffled us scouts when De La Renta's design rolled out. We all fully expected Explorers to wear the same khaki shirt as ours, only with green epaulets ... one uniform to rule them all! But it never happened. I guess we boys weren't thinking rationally at the time.

As a parent, I cannot relate. Any time my kids got "yelled at" (their terms), I told them to go to the "offending adult", thank them for the discipline, promise they will try to be more respectful the next time, and let them know that as soon as they aren't paying attention to the rules next time to please "yell' or "time out" again as necessary. But I understand that new parents are often learning how to handle these situations. You'll be working together for a long time. Dig deep and figure out how to love one another.

@@fred johnson, I've seen this with adult training as well .... from day we IOLS stood in a circle watching a district volunteer not start a fire with his one match.

Your teacher is what my Linguistics professor would call a descriptivist. Prescriptivists (uncommon in the English speaking world) would have less objective terms for someone who makes such allowances. But their attempts to prescribe language often do seem like a scene from Don Quixote. Class A/B as is commonly used among scout troops is unlikely to go away anytime soon. There's something fun about using military short-hand with boys. But, unlike "field", I have not seen it in any literature. @@CalicoPenn, not "only a single reference" ... but rather two in the Insignia Guide. Not just sashes, but wood badge beads. I only emphasize this because it provides a pattern of context in which the BSA tries to use the term. The premise that we can discount the scouter.com blog is, I think, flawed. In this decade, we saw the venturing awards being fashioned online before our eyes. @@Stosh is poking fun at your attempt to equate "Field" "A" and "Dress". Not having one of those blue blazers, I never gave that much thought. I think it's a little bit of both. I think the usage is intentionally chosen to delineate regalia that belongs exclusively to the tan shirt. However, it also seems to be unnecessary. They could have simply said "strictly for uniform wear" or some such phrase and conveyed the same meaning.

Never sent either son to an MBU ... never had any regrets.

I tend not to worry about what can't be controlled. You can't controll the environment of fear our parents are immersed in. You can just share your vision of the pinnacle scouting experience. I've boiled it down to "Hiking and camping independently with your mates." Needless to say, I wish National would do the same and treat Jambo and HAs as the elite side-shows for the 1-%-ers that they are. But even if they never do, that little one-liner gives parents a sense of what I'm after. Part of the fun of the game is a parent discovering that little Johnny or Jane is up to the task.