BadenP

To give another perspective, in the 1980's there were 500- 600 councils in the USA and we are less than half that number today. Part of the reason was supposedly for economic reasons however the reality is it was mainly due to fiscal mismanagement by the council SE's many of whom have little experience or training in managing money or properties. Thats one reason why we are seeing a plethora of council camps and properties being sold nationally, so the councils can dig themselves out of debt created by years of poor management. My question is how many more councils will bite the dust under Mazzuca's term, I have worked for him and know his background and management style, personally I do not see the situation getting better anytime soon. Of the four councils I have been associated with over the years only one is still in exsistence.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I agree with Beavah, the boy should learn their are consequences to his action and the handbook does state who should sign his handbook. I also concur that there seems to be a serious gap in the check and balance system among the troop leaders which needs to be corrected. Another point, even if the rank has been reported to council it can still be rescinded and council can change the record in the system, especially in cases of fraud which this incident would be classified under even if that was not the intent of the boy.

Uniforms Hah! We don't need no stinkin uniforms. These threads are always a riot always the same arguments and disagreements, by now you would think that we would all know that we will have to learn to agree to disagree. Both sides have valid points, and no one will ever come out the winner.

The problem is that unless there is something at the RT that a scouter feels they can not get anywhere else, and that they really need that something they still are not gonna come. There is a reason, IMHO, why the average attendance at RT nationwide is around 10%, they are way too structured, dispensing the same info that are in all the leader manuals, and there is little to no time set aside for fellowship and discussion about problems the leaders may be having in their units. This last point was the original focus of RT's and now it has erroded into a a monthly fact spewing session of the same information you can find on your council website, and who wants to waste an hour and a half in the evening listening to that dribble. As far as training is concerned your time is too limited to really do an effective job with any formal training. RT should be a place a scouter can go to get help or information beyond BSA publications, and find a resource of people from whom they can get advice with problems or activities going on in their unit from other experienced scouters. Offering some kind of token reward will NOT get more people to RT.

Yeah the new Venturing shirts will be more of that Made in China crap. Do your crew a favor and select a uniform not from National supply, you will get better quality, a better price, and a uniform that will not fall apart with the first wash. Venturing is supposed to be an independent program where the crew make the choices, IMHO an "official" Venturing uniform is not only ridiculous but runs contrary to that independence which is the foundation of the program.

I can see both Gern's and Brent's POV. My prejudice comes from experiences with these GOB's with a uniform looking like a military general and a cocky attitude to go right along with it. In my day we called them the Redcoats and all they seemed to be in the BSA for was the awards and recognition, and to heck with the boys. At a district camporee last month I met a man in his late sixties with a uniform with what looked like every knot, badge and award the BSA gives out on it. He was talking to a group of boys at a campfire who were asking him about his awards and he spent a great deal of time talking with them. Later on I had a chance to talk with him and he told me his story how he had been active in scouting from a boy right up to the present, how he had lost both his wife and son and how scouting saved him from just giving up on life. He was a very kind and gentle man who was very well liked in his unit and district, had been offered several council positions but turned them down because he felt that working directly with the boys was the most important job in scouting. This guy was a real asset to scouting that is very rare to see these days. As far as I was concerned he could wear all the badges he wanted because he has really walked the walk and given himself totally to scouting, and at the same time kept an attitude of humility and service.

Sorry cye but the Chinese uniform shirt is hardly "high quality". If anything it is an embarrassment to both the BSA and China. The plastic patches peel off after a couple of washings, the material, IMHO, is cheap and uncomfortable to wear over a period of time, and also IMHO the shirt looks ridiculous. The pants are even more of a joke, and for all that quality the uniform price went up. The same thing can be said for the cheaply made and tinny camping supplies from China, etc., etc. Not to mention the Chinese government is little more than a tyrannical dictatorship trying to pass itself off as progressive. Mazzuca you've got a lot of explaining to do. Made in America used to stand as a source of pride now it looks like it should be changed to Nothing Made in America. RIP American industry and free enterprise.

Why do I get the feeling that this is yet another potential 50 page thread, lol. This started out as a thread about what restrictions a CO can mandate for their own scouting program and now has erroded into a womens equality debate. Can a woman be a good leader in a boy scout troop? Yes, it has already been proven many times since women were allowed by the BSA to become SM's and ASM's. Can this CO ban women troop leaders, yes because the BSA allows it, case closed. Whether it is right or not can be debated till the end of time but it still doesn't change the facts of this case.

Stosh All I can say is let it alone the boy passed his EBOR and has been deemed to have finished all the requirements for Eagle before he "came out" so to speak. The rules of the BSA cut both ways, he followed them all and has been awarded the Eagle. If you try to deny him now the chaos and bad publicity resulting would only severely hurt the BSA. Let him receive his award and he will probably leave scouting on his own,and the whole incident will be forgotten, case closed.

Calico With the way technology is heading exponentially and the overwhelming control it has over society your post is closer than you might think. The sad part would be the scout being signed off on his requirements while performing requirements on the Wii such as cooking, pioneering, orientation, canoeing, etc., etc. I bet there are even some National office types thinking that this may be the future of scouting, Mazzuca included, if for no other reason than a large increase in scouts and fees. Imagine a virtual troop, pack or crew with virtual adult leaders and you communicate with your unit members on facebook or twitter. National Office rationale in Personnel and Cost savings: no more councils and professional staff's, a very small group of pro scouters at National, and the elimination of volunteer scouters alltogether. We may laugh and say it will never happen but if we as volunteers allow the continued "dilution of the scouting program" by those National executives without a loud protest than anything is truly possible.

I think OGE's message is quite visible, clear and to the point, and I agree with him 100%.

....Or learn to speak Chinese and call them direct, lol...... Well National has pretty well screwed up with the new uniform so let them screw up the neckers too and we will see just how even more difficult it will be to get the kids to wear the uniform. Maybe the new neckers will have brightly colored balloons on them with pictures of all the ranks in them, and the new cap will be the old beanie with a swirling propellor on top(China still makes those things). Nothing coming out of National surprises me anymore.

Hey moose You might be surprised as to what National is really thinking. The CSE himself has stated that getting a boy into a tent in the outdoors is not a primary task of the scouting program. I have to admit I had a big laugh when I heard my old SE say that. I kind of see good old Kudu as the modern scouting prophet, many of his words of wisdom are going unheeded at National and I think we have all seen scouting slipping over the last two decades. If National continues to blindly steamroll ahead with massive untested changes in the scouting program what we will have left in twenty years to come may be unrecognizable.

I have to agree with both Beavah and Eamonn. Nowadays the Eagle has lost a lot of its "special" meaning and prestige and in some councils they are given out like candy. There used to be a special pride in earning and becoming an Eagle. Now it seems to be nothing more than a laundry list of things to do,andthe goal is to find the fastest way to complete the list with the least amount of effort. The Eagle no longer carries the same weight it once did when applying for a job. I heard one HR manager at a firm say outright during lunch one day "Why on earth would we even care about an activity the man did when he was a kid, it has no relevancy in todays world." That was a real eye opener for me and I have heard many other corporate executives say something similiar about scouting and the Eagle, so my question is what has changed, where did the BSA go wrong?

Okay maybe I am old fashioned when it comes to what I think is more effective training as far as boy scout adult training is concerned, IMHO a computer is just a tool to supplement information, it was never intended to be the PRIMARY trainer. I am leaning more and more toward Kudu's way of thinking about the boy scout program, if EDGE, WB in the 21st Century, etc are supposed to be such hot training where are the boys??? Boy scout troops and numbers are continuing to decline each year and I think the trouble is the content and quality of the program being delivered in many troops today. Look, boy scouts is not supposed to be just like the other activities kids do, it has always stood out as something unique and different. The inner city program of the the BSA in the 1970's was a complete failure and Bill Hillcourt had to come out of retirement to rewrite the handbook and program to bring us back to the essential essence of what boy scouting is supposed to be. In the last decade we have seen the "new age wussifying" of boy scout program (my term) to the point that it is little more than a club rather than an encounter with the outdoors and the building of leadership skills. In my opinion Mazzuca is taking us in the wrong direction and I forsee the continuing decline in numbers of boy scouts and troops. Online training becoming the primary method of training new and current leaders will turn out to be a detriment, not an asset, to the quality and competency of the scouting programs delivered in the units. By the time National figures that out it may be too late to salvage what is left of scouting, time will tell.

scoutnut I have to take issue with two of your points. First, if online specific is being pushed only because of National's new rules it is yet another quantity over quality scenario that National is so infamous for initiating. Second, scouter interaction and additional training can be found at roundtable, I think we both know that less than 10% of all scouters even attend roundtable, and that roundtable programs I have been to are so structured there is little time for interaction, except on a very superficial level. Listen I am not against online training for the more generic topics, but leader specific training is the most important first training a new leader will receive and use in their pack, troop, or crew. It is vital that this training is of the highest quality, as well as allowing them to ask questions and hear experiences from veteran scouters which online can not offer. How many scouters do you know that leave during or after the first year because they feel ill prepared and insufficently trained or supported to do their jobs? What's next doing BALOO, AOLS, Powderhorn, or WoodBadge training online with a virtual camp in the woods setting? Look, computers are great, informative, and helpful but there are some things even computers can't do.

"A scout is Trustworthy" Online training is convienent, yes, will more leaders get trained, maybe, is it better than live interaction with other new leaders and experienced trainers, not even close. Look we have all been to some bad live trainings, however even at these there was always some great networking and sharing of ideas and experiences which online can not replace. My other pet peeve with the current online training is that you can skip all the content, go right to the test at the end easily pass it and get your certificate. So where is the value in that? Some may say a scouter would not do that, well here you are dealing with new leaders and many have no scouting background or ethic as of yet. They are also very strapped for time and very computer savy and will figure this out quite quickly. There is a dynamic to learning in a group that online can not replace and as far as the quality of training received on line to these people we entrust with our kids I don't want them to be able to get a quick easy fix which will result in a poor quality program. "If something is worth doing it is worth doing it right." Online may be okay for some subjects but not for the basic tool kit these scouters will need to be successful and competent, IMHO.

As a DE I was asked by my SE to take over as staff advisor for the OA lodge and in spite of what the roster showed there were only five "active" youth members, no adult advisors and they were all in one district. I found out that aside from the ordeal there were no other meetings or projects ever scheduled, so the other members had their sash and flap and disappeared. In addition there had been no elections in over five years. So much for boy run, the SE told me to either fix it or he would disband the lodge. It took almost a year to change it all around, which I did with the help of some great scouters and some very motivated youth, dismissing the chapter advisor who was so in name only and the lodge youth officers. Getting all the other districts involved, holding new elections, every district now had one lodge officer, and finding a great new chapter advisor turned the lodge completely around. The lodge now had a dance team for the first time in almost two decades. We had a large contingent to NOAC that year and the dance team won an award, you never saw bigger smiles. Anyway I guess my point is that the boys can't always do it all alone, they need sound guidance from advisors who really care, and will help them reach that goal of having a strong lodge that performs a variety of services to the scouts in the council. It can happen.

Neal LDS may average 11 unit size because that includes the ones who the church registers and who never participate in any activity or meeting, the truer number is more like 5.

OGE I agree with what you said in your post, however it might interest you to know that with this current pope that there has been a reversal concerning attending ecumenical services. "A Roman Catholic is to avoid all ceremonies and celebrations of any group or individual religion that is not in unity with the Roman Catholic Church."- Cardinal Levada, Rome-2009. This was brought up at the last Scout Sunday Service, a community ecumenical celebration, where the the local Catholic church's pastor stated they could no longer participate, after 15 years, because the change in church policy, even though he personally disagreed with the policy he was bound by church law. Well I had a long talk with him afterwards and he told me that the Vatican has retaken the position of the pre Vatican II church where a Catholic is now once again supposed to get a priests permission to even attend a wedding or funeral where the ceremony will be held in a church of another religious tradition, and can only attend but are forbidden to participate in the ceremony in any way. The rationale is that a wedding or baptism or confirmation in another faith are not considered valid sacraments. It was also interesting to note that the priest told me that if a catholic violated this policy and someone reported it to the pastor he was obligated to sternly counsel the "offender" explaining the consequences of their action, if their was another violation the persons name would then be submitted to the Bishop to start excommunication proceedings. I wonder how many Catholics even realize that this is the current policy of Rome? So much for the benevolent Catholic Church. Personally, I am glad not to be associated with such a dictatorial organization any more. To me this puts a whole new perspective on the LDS and the Sabbath situation. Does this mean the end to Scouts Own Services?

I think some of you are missing the point. LDS control of the BSA is not because of numbers, which we now know are greatly inflated, it's because of the money pure and simple. The massive registration fees sent in each year for all their boys, whether or not they even participate in scouting, and their FOS tithes making them the biggest single financial contributor of any CO in scouting. MONEY and that alone is why the LDS enjoys the control they do over the BSA. All the rest of us combined still could not compete with the LDS juggernaut. This is not about local options, it is all about if the LDS support a change it will happen, if not it will never see the light of day. National is not about to do anything that will ever upset the cash cow of the BSA.

packsaddle Well put, but I think the numbers of actual participating LDS scouts is at best less than one third of what is reported. I have had more than a few LDS SM's tell me how frustrating it is for them to be appointed to the position for one or two years, given a roster of 20 boys and only 4-5 show up to meetings. It is really about the true driving force of the National BSA office its all about the MONEY!!!! jhankins - the problems you describe are internal ones within the LDS organization and only they can correct them. We can not offer constructive ideas because to the LDS hierarchy we are nothing more than a bunch of unsaved souls.

bacchus After over 25 years as a scouter and constantly going to camp and district and council camporees its not too hard to figure out what a sham LDS scouting really is. LDS troops show up constantly to these events with 5 or 6 scouts even though their SM swears there is 25 in the troop, after 4-5 times you see the pattern quite clearly, and this has been the same in four different councils. Ghost scouts is an UNDERSTATEMENT when it comes to LDS scouting, even many of the LDS scout leaders agree during our crackerbarrels. So bacchus you can brag all you want about LDS scouting but those of us with these shared experiences know the real truth.

bacchus That's the whole point, It makes a whole lot of difference to claim ghost scouts when you use your grossly overinflated numbers to claim you have more scouts than any other group. In other words it is dishonest, deceitful, and plain immoral. Are those the true tenents of the LDS Church?? If so then the whole LDS scouting program is a sham and National needs to wake up pretty fast. However there is the money issue, the true motivation for National, as long as your religion keeps pumping in all that money every year they will continue to have that power over the BSA. Anyway you look at it it is still dishonest and misrepresentative of the true picture.

bacchus IMHO the biggest single issue with LDS scouting is the control and influence they have over National BSA and the program. No one single group should be able to exercise that much influence over any program that claims it is open to all youth of any faith. As I have stated in a previous post, most LDS units in four councils I have been affiliated with are small in size, five being the average, and the fact that the LDS register and pay for all their boys even though only a small percentage even participate just smacks of the "ghost units" that many councils got in trouble over not so long ago.