BadenP

shortridge, I stated specifically the "Authority" not that they can not ask the boys not to participate. If a boy is at scout camp and chooses to participate then thats between he and his parents and I seriously doubt any CO/IH would even care enough to pursue it further, you try and prove me wrong with a documented case. The reality is, outside of religious, moral, or gender issues a CO does little in changing the scouting program in their facility and I think you know that. So to answer your rebuttal I say to you balderdash, lol.

Barry All you have to do is look in the latest scout handbook "Eagle Scout Rank Requirements" (pg442). "The National Eagle Scout Association is open to all scouts who have achieved the Eagle scout rank." (pg428). The Eagle has always been referred to as the highest rank in scouting since its inception. sm52, I do agree with you in principle and maybe the rule needs to be looked at again, but as scouters we agree to follow the rules from National, even if we disagree.

scoutnut 1)I was referring to the Exploring program prior to Venturing, not LFL, and there are crews organized around careers, not LFL, which is allowed in the program. 2) Venturing has awards youth can earn but they are not ranks and not considered advancements in the scouting sense of the word, Sea Scouts do have specific rank advancements. It is important that you understand the difference, most of us that have been involved and trained in the Venturing program do.

So BDPT you have never heard of requirements being changed in the BSA before? Scouting and society is in a constantly changing cycle and "evolves" over time, and for better or worse so will the OA. When that happens and you see the new REVISED requirements what will you say then?

Every CO signs a charter agreement provided by the council/National stating its intention to use the BSA program within the guidelines established by the BSA. Now if for example if a CO is a church they can also mandate that all leadership be members of that church, or be all male, that there will be some of that church's belief system incorporated into the program, no atheists or non church members allowed, etc., etc. What a CO CAN NOT do is to change the advancement system and say for example, we will skip all the prior ranks and make all our boys Eagle scouts as soon as they join the troop, or skip the requirements for particular ranks and award those ranks to the boys. If a troop goes to camp a CO has no authority to forbid the boys not to use the rifle range since this is a council program being held on property that does not belong to the CO. In other words the CO are allowed add some tweaks here and there but the charter agreement itself specifically states that they are contracting to use the "National BSA program", they can not create a totally different program or radically modify the program. Now there are Explorer and Venturing units organized for special purposes, such as Fire and Rescue, Shooting Clubs, Law Enforcement, Sports Medicine, etc., etc. who do not use a traditional scouting program per se but are considered part of the BSA, remember there are no official rank advancement programs, with the exception of Sea Scouts, associated with these groups. So yes a CO can exercise certain mandates they want to see in their programs but it is not a carte blanc privilege.

twocub Your logic and argument is as faulty and full of holes as Mazzuca's. The reason some boys don't mention camping/outdoors anymore is because many troops have scaled that activity way down or eliminated it completely. I saw a troop car camping last weekend, the SM had a huge trailer with a satellite dish and he and the boys were watching tv. I asked him in the middle of this beautiful forest why was he doing this non camping camping, his answer was "because I really hate camping." So why the hell is he a scoutmaster then. This is the same type of ignorance and arrogance that Mazzuca brings to the BSA. It is truly naive to say you can teach leadership with a science program. Mazzuca's plan will eventually fail and the numbers will decline even further as he continues to disrupts what once was a great program. The BSA needs a true leader at the top and soon or Kudu's prediction will probably come true, and we will all witness the end of the BSA in our lifetime.

WWW I would say your position had much more validity in the 50's or 60's than it has in todays scouting program. Since the 1970's the OA with active lodges has been in an even steeper decline than the boy scout numbers. Today it seems that even those boys who are elected to the OA after the ordeal soon drop out of participating in lodge activities. In many cases this is due to the only lodge activity being work parties at the council camps and little else. I have personally seen lodges folding up right and left in my own councils, and in talking to others at NOAC over the years. Again IMHO this is due to a myriad of factors such as a real image problem, as well as equating OA to ONLY doing work service projects, etc.. Venturing involved in the OA would bring in some new and vitally needed energy to the organization and help rebuild it to its former self. Would this mean the OA may be a little different than it was years ago? Yes, but in a very positive way IMHO. Holding on to old traditions is good, until they begin to be detremental to the continuance and prosperity of the organization, then they need to be changed.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Calico The need to keep scouting relevant to todays society DOES NOT mean we abandon the very essence of what scouting is all about and that is the OUTDOOR program. If you are ready to gut or push that aspect aside then what you have left is no longer scouting, and it would be better in that case to let scouting die with some dignity. As far as calling for Mazzucas head, he is ultimately the one responsible, and his actions since taking over as CSE have been nothing more than detrimental to the BSA as a whole. As one who has worked for him in the past I know his MO and vision for scoutings future, the result will be a shell of the current organization, and one I personally want no part of.

sherm While I agree with you without a solid marketing plan in place to show off how fun scouting can be you will never get your message off the ground, the two are interlinked.

I agree with what j hankins said earlier about Mazzuca setting himself up as Chief Scout and having thre ACSE's to do the work he should be doing himself. The BSA really does need an easily recognizable celebrity to bring scouting to the forefront and develop the BSA image as something that is positive and popular and fun. Mike and Bear would be good candidates or maybe a sports star or movie star who was a scout as a kid. With the right kind of marketing I bet we would see a significant rise in numbers.

Gary After reading your last post I was quite amazed by your open minded attitude and commend you, and agree with you. Venturing IMHO is a positive method in retaining older scouts, allowing girls to participate in a great scouting experience. and a great tool in reaching those older boys who dropped out or who never were in scouting.

sherm Read point #1 on schiff's list, thats why a team would not work, lol. It is a possibility however but Varsity is linked so closely to LDS scouting that it is largely ignored outside that arena.

sherm nldscouter is a good old fashioned "red coat" scouter and will never be open to change, like Gary he zooms in attacks, makes his point then leaves the discussion, so good luck getting answers to any of your questions.

Well except for Merlyn and ED does anyone else really even care about this case anymore, lol? Especially with much more important news going on around the world, this case is but a pimple in the annals of justice.

acco The sad truth is that older boys are leaving scouts in droves without aging out. If Venturing will keep them in scouting then why not, it's not poaching it is just another retention tool. By the time a boy reaches 16 he is pretty much done with boy scouts these days Eagle or no Eagle. His interests turn to girls and cars and in Venturing he can integrate both of them.

You guys this has been already been beaten to death on another thread, before you start a whole new thread sm52 learn how to look up the archive material on this subject, and save us all a lot of grief.

As the old saying goes, "Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." I agree, there seems to be a movement afoot to regulate Venturing to an almost second class status within the BSA. It seems to based on a ridiculous fear that venturing girls will somehow contaminate the sanctity of the OA and scouting itself. This simplistic notion IMHO, comes mainly from the adult and not the youth members of the lodge. There are already female adult members of the OA and the foundations have not crumbled, yet. It is time for the old time scouters, like myself, to realize we are now living in the 21st century and the times are changing, like it or not. So it becomes a matter of getting on the bandwagon or being left alone stuck in the past, not a difficult choice when you think about it.

sherm You have to understand that Gary is an LDS scouter and their scouting program is still stuck a little in the past, in other words NO GIRLS.

I have to agree with John Gary, you are just playing a semantics game here to justify your argument, and it doesn't hold up. Any program that is part of the BSA is considered scouting no matter how you slice it. As a former camp director at my council for two years I can tell you it is hard to motivate enough OA members to serve on camp staff, the reasons are many. I will say this however the lodges I have been affiliated with members who are really active and living up to the service requirement of membership are not in the majority by any means, and that is a sad truth of the OA today. So IMHO going to Venturing crews to recruit staff who really want to be there is an excellent resource.

I also think there is a direct correlation between a drop in numbers and National revamping or introducing new changes to any of the programs which have not been field tested and in many cases just not well thought out as to future impact in program/training delivery and retention. Whether you agree or not National is TRULY out of touch with scouting in the field and it just keeps getting worse, especially with the Mazzuca Marauders currently in charge.

I think Beavah really said it all sometimes one mans treasure is another mans junk. You know you can buy a Congressional Medal of Honor, Silver and Bronze Stars,etc. on ebay and other sites and there is nothing that can be done legally or otherwise. There will always be those pretenders who buy these things to create a false image and all I feel for those people is just plain pity.

Good points all. I agree that distinctions within the OA is plain ridiculous and defeats the whole principle of brotherhood. The OA overall has not exactly been exactly flourishing in all councils, one lodge I have been part of has gone to the happy hunting ground because of lack of participation. As many councils merge or disappear so do their lodges. If the OA is going to continue to grow it must get rid of all those silly exclusionary policies, special patches, and seperation of members. nolescout, it makes no difference whether someone is elected or selected to the OA all should be made to feel welcome and an equal member of a great organization.

UCEagle The Ranger is way too much overkill for OA membership. I view Ranger as the nearest Venturing equivalent to Eagle, yes, even more than the silver for some obvious reasons.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

stl You gotta be kidding dude, no way is the new venturing shirt better from any aspect. It is more expensive, cheap flimsy cloth, poorly put together, and plain butt ugly. I suggest you hold on to or get an older version shirt because this new one will not hold up for very long. BOYCOTT THE NEW VENTURING SHIRT!!!!

I agree Sherm. Look there are already female leaders in the OA so why not let the Venturing girls in. I agree with emb021 that the Bronze Award in the Outdoors would be more applicable than the Gold Award, for the OA for both the girls and the guys not previously in scouting.