BadenP

I for one will wait until Merlyn and Ed have debated this issue to death as to what is true and politically correct before I decide, lol. Live Long and Prosper to all you trekkers out there.

T2 Why on earth do you need a nametag? Don't the people in your troop know who you are? Maybe at a council function you can use a temporary one or a pin on one, but a permanent name patch, lol give me a break.

You know if someone is acting like a dictator in the committee it doesn't matter what the book says life will be miserable for all. I am now the COR/CC for our crew, the only dual role that can be held, so the buck stops with me when there is a strong conflict. Our committee though runs like an egalitarian one, all have equal opportunity to make suggestions or discuss problems, and we decide by consensus. "Pulling of rank" is always inappropriate unless you are deadlocked as a group and a decision has to be made, and those times should be very few if any.

emb021 Except for the sick boys the other reasons you give are perfect examples why lone scouts should either be very restricted or eliminated alltogether. Home school kids and shyness are not legitimate reasons to be lone scouts. In both of those examples those kids need to be in a regular troop learning social skills and developing maturity and leadership skills even more than the rest of the boys. Lone Scouts once had a place long ago but that need has long passed away, with an exception or two.

Jeff Your grandads situation may have been more common 60+ years ago but not anymore, rural areas are more populated today then ever before and there are ample troops to choose from. Lone Scout program may serve the needs of those boys too sick to be an active member of a regular troop, or maybe overseas but not on a military base or connected with the military. There may be some more examples, but in reality in the 21st century the Lone Scout program is little more than a nostalgic leftover of scoutings past.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Which is exactly what I said in previous posts, the council is the local agent for and bound by National policies and the agreement can not violate any rules, procedures or regulations of the BSA. All the rest of this is just semantics. Thanks Axeman!

I agree with Beavah the reality is that most BSA camps do and have not met these so called requirements ever. Council camps provide a low cost alternative to Philmont, etc., and in this economy and in many poorer areas of the country this is the ONLY camp experience with a well planned program that most of these kids will ever experience. I too believe that this is more a ploy on Nationals part to justify the sale of camps to bail out poorly run councils to meet the ever increasing salaries of the FD's, SE's, and Directors. In my council currently the trend is to take all the scout cabins, with their properties, that were built by volunteers years ago and placed in the councils name for SAFEKEEPING and sell them for desperately needed revenue because the SE and his staff have been running the council into a financial hole for years now. This kind of financial incompetence has been going on in the BSA nationally for a long time now with no system of accountability in place. It is time for we volunteers to demand from both council and National executives to be more transparent in the financial dealings of all councils and National and for us to be directly involved in the financial decision making processes affecting our councils.

Oscar I suggest you take a well done Venturing Leaders Training course to better understand what Venturing is, is supposed to be, and why it was created. No outdoors should not be its only focus, but it is still the standard around which the others are built, similiar to the boy scout program. If you view the successes and failures in Venturing you will find that most all of the sedentary indoor focus crews last less than a year, as the teens get bored with the same activities they can do at home. Most teens today do not get into the outdoors near enough, a well balanced program giving them new experiences and challenges their comfort zone and leadership skills will hold their interests for a long time. A well run crew is a solid mixture of all the interests of its members and some new ones to try for the first time.

In this instance click the council is the ACTING local representative or agent for the BSA National scouting programs. While the charter may state XYZ Council the wording of the "Boy Scouts of America" in the charter means just that, the National organization, not really all that confusing. If the council adds to the agreement anything running contrary to the rules or regulations of National BSA then it renders that agreement null and void.

Interesting indeed Axeman, brings up the point who is the CO really making the agreement with, the BSA or the local council? They are two different entities with different purposes, and I still find it hard to believe that the National office would allow local councils to alter these agreements, if for no other reason for consistency as well as legal issues. Still nothing from the BSA surprises me anymore, Mazzuca's reorganization has done nothing more than create internal confusion as well as decrease National's efficency to an all time low.

The Catholic Church tried the same trick and look at the mess now. Just when the Vatican assured everyone it was all under control, now we have new cases in Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany involving conspiracy by the popes brother and the pope himself. The BSA could learn a lesson by looking at the mess the CAtholic Church is in today, no matter how hard you try to bury the truth eventually that truth will be made known. No wonder the VAtican has been pushing those "Catholics Come Home" ads so hard, maybe the BSA could try some "Boy Scouts Come Home" ads themselves to boost membership, but I rather doubt they would help them either. "Know the truth and it will set you free."

Not to say you are in error Axeman but I have a copy of our charter agreements from 08, 09, and 10 and none of them show those changes. If our council isn't using them I have to wonder how valid or official those agreements click mentions really are.

Not taking sides here but I do remember very well as an 11 year old Catholic kid there were troops where it was made very clear that Catholics and Jews were not welcome, some of them sponsored by schools. Those were the days of Catholics being called mackerel snappers and papal worshippers so I do understand what it is like to be excluded and what atheist kids must feel being excluded, after all they are only reflecting what their parents have taught them. For many years right into the 1980's there were priests and bishops who told their congregations not to enroll their boys in the BSA since it was a "biased and blasphemous organization."

Lets get real here people Lone Scouting is all but gone in spite of it still being in some pubs or apps. In this day and age unless the kid is in Antartica there are plenty of units locally to him, the only exception I see as valid is a serious medical condition, otherwise the program should be shelved as a part of scoutings past history. Lone Venturing, lol, friggin unbelievable.

Well click thinking back to my DE days the "official" charter agreement is from National and is to be used throughout the country. If any council modifies it to promote local preferences it becomes invalid and all any leader would have to do is submit a copy to National and let them go after that SE. If National is thinking of changing the charter agreement and this is a first draft attempt, that's a whole different matter and its time to get your COR to the council executive committee meetings. This agreement reads more like a local hack job to me, time to get your and other COR's involved.

Interesting ideas here. Have you guys/ladies ever wondered just how secure your health forms are at camp, Philmont, et. al., are they always kept locked up and who really has access to them? At the end of camp do you get those forms returned to you or does the camp store or dispose of them, and how is that done? HIPPA aside, a lot of confidential information gets passed through and accessed by a lot of people. I know of one camp where at the end all these confidential forms were just thrown in a dumpster out back. Just food for thought.

John in KC you hit the nail on the head. This is indeed an epic over "mouse turds". Any cooking expert who cooks with wine or beer will tell you that only the essence of the grapes or the hops and barley remain when you flavor a dish with wine or beer, the alcohol burns away very quickly under the heat. As far as a scout outing is concerned the boys will not be exposed, in spite of what some may think, to the evils of booze, but if you have some puritanical parents use your best judgement to preserve the peace.

Looking at this question as a former DE and current volunteer leader I think the answer really depends on the council. As a former pro I have seen minimal money put into camp maintenance, just enough to keep it functional. I have seen the council camp being sold to pay off huge council debts because of poor fiscal management. I have seen two different council SE's get up in front of a group of volunteers and state point blank that "FOS pays for the professional staff without whom the scouting program could not function." The council scout store that never seems to have anything in stock, even if you order in advance. I used to give regularly and generously to FOS until I found out how much was going into salary increases for the professionals after the sale of our camp. I watched another council go under because of professional incompetence and watch those SE's get promoted to the highest ranks in professional scouting. Until I see some honesty and integrity and accountability return to professional scouting they will not receive one FOS dollar from me.

Joe Bob, the KKK and NeoNazi parties are racist hatemongering organizations who want to wipe off the face of the earth select groups of people based on race and religion. Ancient history always repeats itself, look at the racial cleansing going on in Iraq, Iran,Israel, Pakistan, Afganistan, half the continent of Africa, in the Balkans, etc. No Christian, Jew, or Muslim is guilt free, historians show that most wars throughout history were based on religious differences as the primary or secondary motivation. This stupidity and hatred is as alive today as it was 1,000 years ago proving how little we have evolved as a people, the only difference today is now we have the technology to wipe out the entire world instead of a group of people. Any faith tradition that promotes their superiority over peace and tolerance is part of the PROBLEM not the solution. As a worldwide community if we can not learn to live in tolerance and peace with those different from ourselves we are eventually doomed to destroy ourselves. The atheist is not the problem it is our own greed and intolerance that is the true enemy.

Stosh and Avid what you say is true and no matter what the SM will always be the fall guy when things go awry, however if your other adult and teen leaders are properly and THROUGHLY trained and fully understand their responsibilities then these problems will be minimal. A SM who thinks he can or should run the entire show is just asking for trouble and both he and the troop will suffer as the result.

As a former SM myself I can say that if the troop is running as it should with the boys in POR's doing their jobs well then the SM and ASM's are more in the role of advisors and guides as far as the program piece goes. If the SM uses a more dictatorial style of leadership then when things go wrong he is FULLY responsible. That is one of the main differences I have seen between boy run and adult run troops. Everyone one in the troop, adult and youth, need to fully understand their responsibilities upfront if you really want to have a well run troop. I used to get a kick out of those dictatorial SM's complaining at every roundtable that their boys are just plain lazy, and how they had to take control to save the troop, and in 98% of those cases the troop eventually went under. IMHO too many SM's don't take the time to really study the SM handbook, especially some of the older versions by Hillcourt, and instead rely soley on SM basic training to prepare themselves to run a troop.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Mike Keep your blinders on but the truth is the truth and any faith based on lies is a lie whether you choose to believe it or not, and you are entitled to believe whatever false doctrine u like. As far as a raving lunatic is concerned Mikey, scripture, eccleisology, and the history of Christianity supports my position, and all you have are a bunch of deluded clergy who view themselves as demigods and miracle workers when in fact many are just ill trained and who use fear and empty rituals to control their congregations. I know I was Catholic, worked in the church, and personally know of what I speak, what do you have supporting you Mike, blind loyalty to a cult of clergy who are liars and an abomination in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church is in serious crisis with ever shrinking number of priests who have been exposed in recent years for what they truly are. Fewer and fewer numbers in the pews, and a pathetic tv ad campaign currently running, to try to bring them back, more and more archdioceses going bankrupt paying off settlements from priest abuse cases. All of these IMHO are God's way of retribution. So believe as you will. "Know the truth and it will set you free."

Bklyn It is that kind of Catholic bigotry spewing from your post that will prevent any ecumencial progress from ever taking place. Your theology is as flawed as your faith traditions belief that Jesus founded the Roman Catholic Church which is historically untrue. An ordination of or a communion service presided by any legitimately ordained Christian minister is just as valid as those done by Catholic priests, probably more so since unlike priests other ministers are not as deluded by thinking they literally turn the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. By the way Bkyln there is no such thing as the ontological change that priests state gives them the power to transubstantiate or to forgive sins. Lastly Catholics Come Home ads are currently running on tv, tonight the Catholics claiming they invented the scientific method and that they teach more children than any other institution in the world, not only are these both absolute falsehoods it just show what low levels of lies they will stoop to in order to bring in people to the pews. The Catholic Church is a sham built on a weak foundation of redacted scripture, false theology, and a corrupt clerical leadership from the Vatican down to the parish priest. In the end they will answer to the Supreme Authority, but for now watching the clergy rapidly dwindling in numbers will put the Catholic church in a severe crisis in very short order.

Well it may just be me but I don't think Jeopardy did much of a service to the BSA. Portraying the kids as a bunch of tomahawk throwing, teepee firebuilding, and stick in the ground to find direction was weak and inaccurate to say the least. The Boyce story at least gets closer to the principles scouting tries to extol on the youth but all in all I would give it a C- for the attempt. Still any positive publicity is better than none, and everyone knows that a log cabin fire is vastly superior to a teepee fire, lol.

Mike Time to take your CAtholic blinders off dude, Pope John died thre months into Vatican II yet those changes still went through because many clerics realized,to use Pope Johns own words, "the church had become stagnant and elitist and it was time to open the windows and let some fresh air in." Pope Benedict and his personally selected cardinals want to return to that elitist prevatican II church, first by eliminating all ecumenical talks with other Christian denominations and declaring that "that the sacraments of the Catholic Church and the ordination of Catholic priests are the only truly valid sacraments in the eyes of God, and that all other sacraments and ordinations are invalid and illegitimiate.The Roman Catholic Church has the ONLY true path to eternal life" Any way you slice it this guy is truly an anachronistic, out of touch with reality, as well as being an elitist and subversive leader. That is why you see Catholics leaving the church in droves and why the church felt that the currently running "Catholics Come Home" media blitz was so necessary. In those ads they state their are over 1 billion Catholics world wide, what they don't tell you is that the church includes the over 600 million former and nonpracticing catholics in that number. A good friend of mine in advertising worked on this campaign and was shocked that church leaders insisted on using the 1 Billion number. Goes to show you that even high ranking church officials will tell any lie to the people to convince them, of course they have been doing that for centuries.(This message has been edited by BadenP)