BadenP

Bklyn You know as well as I do that the changes take a long while to go into effect, look at Vatican II changes took over 20 years to go into full effect for pete sake. Benedict has a four tier plan which he has already started returning the latin mass to its former primary position is now a mandate, not an option, as far as the Latin I covered that in the other thread, but he is still getting a lot of opposition from some prominent cardinals and bishops. In his final phase the tabernacle will return to the altar and the altar will be moved back and once again the priest will have his back to the congregation. All of this will take years to fully be in effect, but the first steps are happening now in many area parishes where there is at least one latin mass every Sunday. Rest assured BKlyn this is going to unveil itself in our lifetime even while the pews on Sunday are becoming more and more empty. Go to the Vatican website and read it for yourself or talk to your priest.

I don't know campcrafter but with the direction of this new pope you would be considered the "whackjob" , he hates Vatican II and is bringing back the latin mass as the norm.

Oak Tree, oak tree, oaktree Putting aside the LDS special circumstances, why else would a CO want to exclude girls from a Venturing Crew, which is a coed program, except to promote some self serving, biased, and narrow visioned motive or ideal??? Are they afraid that the teens are uncontrollable if you mix teenage boys and girls together??? After advising a Venturing Crew for over 8 years with 50-60 members we have never had one single problem. In fact the girls motivated the boys into doing more activities, as well as being able to keep up with and even surpass them in all areas. So to me yes, even if it is allowed, I find any single sex crew to be suspect as to the real reason why. WOW OakTree!!!

OGE I partly agree with you that some scoutmasters need to know when it is time to turn over the reins, and that many hold on too long. That is why on my last birthday I turned over the position of Crew Advisor to a very capable and competent younger Associate Advisor, who happens to be female(thats for you Pint, lol), and I moved to the Crew CC and COR position. As a scoutmaster when my son graduated from the troop I knew it was also time for me to move on and so I turned over the troop to the ASM. Pint Let me say no one has a greater respect for female scouters than myself. It is just in my judgement and experience young boys 11-14 really need that male role model image. In spite of what BP may have said and an early female scoutmaster that for boys in this age group really need that male bonding time. Women are more than capable of being excellent scoutmasters, IMHO, a boy 11-14 is at that stage of development where a male role model, and male bonding is critical to that development, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not a female can be a competent leader.

OGE Good to see you keeping a neutral moderator stance, not, your definition of what is enlightened versus common sense is a matter of only your opinion and nothing else.

Oak Tree please DO NOT misquote me, I said if you read my post "Not that they (female scoutmasters) are incapable of leadership... it just goes contrary to what boy scouting is all about." As far as the narrowmindedness and bigotry of venturing crews not allowing girls(outside of the LDS) ,even if they have that option, does indeed show those characterstics when the National policy is "Venturing is a program open to all males and females between the ages of 14 and 21." going contrary to that OFFICIAL statement does indeed show a definite bias. OakTree, I suggest you either read the posts throughly before criticizing in error or take a comprehensive reading course to learn how to interpret and understand what you read.

Oak Tree Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about. As far as Venturing is concerned it has always been open to girls, the LDS runs their own version of scouting, and a very different program with a very different intent from the standard scout program, and women are stilled viewed as second class in the LDS. Officially Venturing is open to both boys and girls, the fact that any unit can exclude females just goes to the inconsistency of National policy that makes exceptions for a specific religious group with a lot of power in the BSA policymaking. The fact that other biased groups have jumped on the exclusionary bandwagon to keep girls out of Venturing just points to the narrowmindedness of some of the other cultic religious groups in the BSA.

I too think there really is no solution, as others have pointed out, not to mention it would be extremely hypocritical for the BSA to have two seperate policies, a local option is just plain unworkable. Either scouters are going to have to accept the policies as they now stand or if their consciousness will not allow it move on to another organization, or start their own. While I don't agree with the atheist rule and would love to see religion not a part of the program I can abide by it. As far as homosexuals are concerned the logistical problems far outweigh any benefits a change in that rule might bring about.

The BSA has discriminated against the non religious and the gay segments of our society so of course they will be discriminated against for those exclusionary policies. As far as the scouts being cool or not among the youth I have to disagree with the ol Beav, working with youth for over two decades now I have indeed have heard and seen some youth tease scouts, especially if they are in uniform, as being "mommas boys", "gay boys", and a variety of other names I can not mention in a public forum. The scout youth have told me part of the problem is the "uniform stigma" and the other is the goody two shoes imagery scouts seem to have among youth. These are not adult prejudices but come right from the kids themselves. Sadly many of the scout youth have said they will not wear their uniforms at school or in public because of the insults they receive from other youth. Now this same problem was around when I was a kid as well many years ago, so the question becomes why has the BSA uniform attracted such mean natured attacks for such a long period in scouting history?

Trainerlady I am sorry your district camporees are so poorly run, however you truly seemed to have missed all the points I and Eagle 92 were trying to make. A camporee is actually an ideal place to start the transition to boy scouts but first your district activity committee needs to get their act together. Not doing a big event where the webelos can see firsthand, and take a part in some real boy scout experiences with a variety of troops is a major reason why the whole webelos transition problem is an abysmal failure, and most of those who do transition drop out in the first year. The boys are not adequately prepared to move onward from just den activity and one campout with a troop. These camporees give the boys a chance to get to know a variety of boy scouts and webelos making the transition to boy scouts less difficult as they will already know many of the boys in a troop. In all honesty your den meetings alone are not enough to cut it and many of your webelos will not last long in any troop. Your attitude dooms your boys to failure before they even get started, and thats one of the big problems with the webelos program nationwide.

trainerlady First of all this was years ago when no such rule exsisted, second the cubs camped in their own area away from the troops with their folks, and third most of the time the webelos had their own activities, when the boy scout events were not taking place there were some joint activities run by the boy scouts that were indeed age appropriate for the webelos. As far as that so called guideline is concerned if the event is organized well there is no conflict or problem with letting the two groups interact on a limited basis, in spite of what those pencil pushers at National might think. With a national average of about only 30% percent of the webelos crossing over into boy scouts and with the continuing losses of boy scouts and troops each year if something radical is not done in the next few years as far as retention goes the BSA will shrink to a small, unimportant, and irrelevent organization. Lastly you are so WRONG about camporees not being good events to see a troop in action, maybe the ones you have been to have been disorganized and poorly run but a well run camporee will highlight what it means to be a boy scout. Those two former districts of mine are still integrating the webelos into the camporees all these years later, and still are maintaining a high 90's percentile crossover rate, the highest in the council. SO YOU SEE IT CAN AND DOES WORK ! It takes leaders and trainers who can think outside the box to make scouting successful, not just sticking your nose in a book and stating why it can't be done.

CPA Mom As a WL for two years when it was still a one year program, I can tell you personally have at least one or two summer activities with your den to keep them interested and active in the program. Some good ideas have been mentioned by others, I also had one activity with a boy scout troop in the summer to excite them about moving on in scouting, check with your local troops. Of the fourteen webelos in my den over the two years, twelve became Eagle scouts, it is all a matter of keeping them excited and motivated.

Two cub In my districts as a DE and WL webelos were always invited to the spring camporee at the troops request. It was a great way for them to scope out the troops available, and each troop included the boys in at least one activity during the weekend. The gist is we had over 98% of these webelos cross over to boy scouts every year mainly due to this experience.

Johnx You can always keep them as real collectors items. A few years back going through aan old second hand shop I found an official 1930 BSA scout diary and the scouts merit badge sash with ten of the old mb's for $10. The diary tells of how he earned each one and the official pictures and requirements for each rank and merit badge are a real fascinating part of scouting history which I love to refer to when talking to my crew on outings. As Kudu would say the good old glory days of scouting.

It will be interesting to see just how badly National continues to screw up this particular program, in any case it really seems to be another example of their inability to take a simple idea and bring it into reality. I am willing to bet you will see this program continue to be delayed because of very poor planning.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Click Ask yourself one simple question on who's charter does a COR register? Answer: the units charter. Is he on the council charter? Answer: NO. So putting two and two together the simple answer is he is part of the unit(s) charter that his organization sponsors, he is NOT on the council charter nor is he a member of the council executive committee, he only has the right to cast one vote at annual council board meeting. NOW WHY IS THAT SO HARD FOR SO MANY TO UNDERSTAND???

emb021 What this fiasco is really called is poor and incompetent organizational planning management. I don't understand why you feel that National needs to be defended when the CSE is ultimately and solely responsible for all the messes his management style has created since he decided to reorganize National. OGE is correct incompetency at the National office is at an all time high. Poor planning is not excusable at the National level.

Eagle you are so wrong, the COR's can cast a vote at board meetings, but they are NOT members of the board, they represent the units that their organization sponsors. They are registered on the UNIT CHARTER NOT the council charter which means they are NOT council scouters, otherwise they would be registered along with the council board members. This is not rocket science people, it is simple logic. And Eagle the insignia guide is hardly an accurate source to determine what a COR is, lol. Look they clump the COR patch with the other unit committee patches at the scout store. Most importantly you have to be selected to the council executive committee you do not have membership automatically, otherwise you would be registered on the council charter, the COR's only tie to council is that they have a vote at the general committee meeting and that is all.

The COR is registered on the unit charter NOT the council charter, take a hint, he has the ability to cast one vote in the council executive committee but he is NOT a member of that committee, period you need to reread your citation. Any way you slice it NO SILVER LOOPS, but as someone pointed out a COR in uniform let alone at a council meeting is a rare sighting.

I guess the reorganization of the National office was not as well thought out as it should have been. You don't announce a new program, publish articles promoting it, and then say oops we goofed and need to rethink it putting it on indefinite hold. Then again our new CSE was a history major not a business major and never held a job outside of the BSA so what do you expect.

I agree with you Lisabob, the hardest lesson any adult leader has is to not only let the PLC make the decisions but allowing them to fail once in a while. Too often the adults rush in to save the day and push the youth leaders aside, and then wonder why the youth don't take their leadership positions more seriously. You learn to lead by experiencing both success and failure, and sometimes we adults get in the way of that process resulting in the youth feeling that thier ideas have no value.

F Scouter is correct and OA members have no special distinction, if they are asked to serve on a council camping committee it is on an advisory basis only and not on a membership basis. Additionally a COR wears the loops of his unit and not the silver council loops, he has a vote during council committee meetings but he is not a member he is a Representative of that units CO.

Usually the Venturing Leader of the Year Award is given annually by the district key 3 based on nominations sent in by other district volunteers and presented during the districts annual dinner each year, I got one last year. Now there are other venturing leader awards for training, etc. So I guess it is hard to answer you without knowing specifically what kind of award you mean.

83 Eagle that decision may be fine for you but you do not have the right to dictate your ideas on others, wait till you have been here a while to better understand what I mean. It still all amounts to much adoo about nothing, a knot vs a small circle patch, lets get real here people. Besides when it comes right down to it who really cares.

Oh Frank you and Brent are two of the biggest pontificators on this forum, both of you never think outside the box, and both of you think that all the guidelines are indeed Gospel. Personally it doesn't ever bother me to see an adult with an Eagle badge on his uniform, he EARNED it after all and who are we to say otherwise. IMHO all those knots look more like para military insignia instead of scouting awards. Time to move on boys, lol.