BadenP

Look, no matter how you want to call it WB21 is little more than a management training course and if it were not for the symbolic beads, false prestige, and mythos surrounding it, few would devote the time or money taking it. The course has been made so generic and so watered down from the original that it holds little of value to any scouter except the right to say, "Look at my beads I did it." WoodBadge has lost so much of its original purpose and content it has become little more than a group of scouters many of whom think they are an elite corp of leaders which is so painfully false as we watch the youth numbers continue to drop. Bottom line in todays scouting world WoodBadge is JUST about the beads.

Dean is partially right about Mazzuca and the Catholic Church since this untapped group of boys are mainly catholic and that the hispanic culture has an obsession with soccer as we do with football. Secondly the church's would be the ideal CO's for these groups since many hispanics do not really trust organizations outside the church when supplying their personal information, the churchs could handle the chartering process in the same manner as the LDS. Since Mazzuca himself is a Catholic I am sure he would love to develop the same scouting relationship with them as the BSA has with the LDS, a personal feather in his cap. However I agree with the others here who state that if you take the scoutcraft out of scouting then it is no longer scouting just another youth sports league, something to really ponder before taking this road.

IMHO this fast food mentality regarding training in the BSA does nothing more than exacerbate a seriously growing problem within the organization, poorly trained and severely undertrained adult leadership. The CSE doesn't seem to care so why should we. Look, in Cubs you might be able to get away with these poorly done online trainings but in boy scouts and venturing the lack of proper skills and knowledge could put these kids in potential danger. Maybe after a series of some more deadly accidents even Mazzuca may discover why it is essential to require QUALITY training for all the scout leaders in the BSA. Roundtable and online are not the places for mainstream training, that is not what they were designed to do.

Stosh I am quite frankly surprised by your last post. If you study the history of our country you would know why organizations like the NAACP came into exsistence, but to call them racist is indeed a form of bigotry. The sad truth is that EVERYONE is a bigot in one form or another some keep it inside and some are very vocal. How many times driving and you get cut off by a person of another nationality does some kind of angry racial slur come pouring out of your mouth in anger? It always amuses me when someone states they are not a bigot and then you hear them make several or more racist comments out in public, and they still deny what they are. Yes, everyone is a bigot in one form or another and only when they realize they are can we begin as a country and a world community pull together and work towards a more peaceful and harmonious world.

Yea Packsaddle And the Vatican still preaches only Roman Catholics in good standing will go to heaven, talk about misinformed and unscholarly nonsense. The Vatican from Benedict on down are little more than hypocrites.

Sorry Moose but I too was a scout in the late 60's and early 70's and all BOR's, except EBOR's, were done by the PLC with the SM and ASM, that was the norm in my council. The adult controlled BOR's were part of that urban scouting disaster of the mid 70's and it never changed. Kudu might possibly argue that was the same time WoodBadge started its move from scoutcraft to management mode. In any case however an all adult panel for a BOR is just plain wrong and goes against everything we teach the boys about leadership. IMHO what really is ruining boy scouts resulting in an ever increasing number of lost troops and boys are adult scouters who can't let go of any control to the boys who should be running it according to BP. Too many adult scouters are either reliving or living for the first time their own scouting fantasies much to the detriment of the program and the boys. If this trend doesn't start to reverse real soon we will see the end of Boy Scouts, as it was envisioned by BP, in another decade. What will be left will be an impotent, wishy washy, dull lifeless program.

The SM and ASM on a BOR is more than adequate "adult association" however for ranks from Tenderfoot to Life it only makes sense to have senior scouts who know the boy on the board which is how BP envisioned it anyway. Sorry OGE but a BOR's purpose is NOT for adult association but to properly assess a candidates readiness to receive the next rank plain and simple. IMHO adults taken from the district or even the troop committee who do not even know the boy asessing his readiness does a great disservice to him and to how the the troop is suppossed to be run. Eagledad expressed it well in the other thread, we teach the boys leadership but then we do not trust them to use these skills. I think you would find more scouts on the BOR would make it a more honest tool for real evaluation of a scouts skills, leadership, and spirit. Modern day scouting has become so far removed from its origins that it is small wonder why the numbers keep dropping. Our current CSE, if he gets his way will do even more damage to the organization with his soccer scouting, continual deemphasis on the outdoor scouting program. Every year there is more and more adult control happening in boy scout troops, the program hardest hit by declining numbers, and yet no one at National sees the correlation. In too many cases modern boy scouting has become nothing more than an older version of cub scouts, from the racing through the ranks, limited leadership skill sets being taught or opportunities to be put into practice, poor quality Eagle projects, etc., etc. A BOR is a great opportunity for older scouts to practice the leadership skills we should be teaching them all along.

"A troop can have a strong patrol method and good use of a PLC, it is not dependent on the PLC and SM to run BOR's."-FScouter Excuse me Frank but since when has a scout troop supposed to be adult run instead of boy run? BP set the program up this way originally, the SM and older boys mentored the younger ones and signed off their books. Now we have parents and committee members and other adults with limited to no knowledge of the program signing off requirements on things they know little about, how is that better? Who knows these boys skills and scout spirit better than the SM and troop leaders? Your premise and statement is clearly false since a properly run troop would not have these kind of issues popping up and adults taking improper actions and liberties in the advancement of the boys. Maybe it is high time for the BSA to reevaluate the structure and methods of how a BOR should be run. This troop in question has some serious problems in the way the troop program is being run and delivered.

All of this melodrama I think goes to prove a couple of things, first and foremost a parent should NEVER be allowed to sign off their own childs boy scout requirements even if they are the SM, ASM, CC or whatever because it can lead to misunderstanding, personal prejudice or bias, ethical issues, and it can lead to a great deal of disharmony in the troop. You have other leaders in the troop that there is never a need for a parent to directly work with their own child. Secondly, it sounds to me that the adults have too much influence and control in this troop stifling the development of a solid patrol method where the BOR's could be handled by the PLC and SM. As Kudu would say we have strayed way off the path that Baden Powell developed for us to follow way back when.

Hey Gher The purpose of my post was is WoodBadge a training to become a better scouter or is it a method to a means. The symbols and the special recognition that you are somehow now in an elite class or group of scouters emphasized by the beads, the plaid scarf, and special woggle marking you as some kind of "scouter elite". If all those symbols were no longer a part of the training would it still hold the same interest for them? Ch Lee does a good job getting to the heart of the issue, Wood Badge trains you to become a potentially better leader it does not make anyone all knowledgeable in scoutcraft or the BSA program as some would have you believe. I have been through WB in the 21st Century and the prior version as well, I have my beads, neckers and woggles in their presentation boxes at home, and I rarely wear them because some scouters feel intimidated or feel angry that we are setting ourselves up as some kind of special or elite group of scouters. IMHO we are in this as volunteer scouters for the youth first and foremost and I do not feel the need to wear something to prove what kind of scouter I am. Many scouters feel that they earned those symbols and are entitled to wear them, which is their right, but too many WBers display those beads, etc.,and act like they have completed some kind of rite of passage into making them superior scouters which is just not true.

What if there were no beads or special recognition or patrols or any affiliation with Wood Badge after the course was finished. Instead you just get a plain old certificate, nothing of note to wear on your uniform, no special neckers or woggles? How many of you out there would still go through the entire process now that you know what is involved. If you can answer that question truefully and your answer is no then like it or not you were just in it for the beads and the prestige and becoming a member of the "WB Cult". Just something to ponder.

Frank aka F-Scouter I really got quite a laugh at your post demeaning Beavah, because before you became a moderator, and even after, I do recall just how down right nasty you were to anyone who disagreed with you and blasted them with a tone reminiscent of our old friend Mr. White. We are all adults here and sometimes you may have to close a thread when it gets out of hand. However those instances are few and far between and even when we disagree in here most of us do not or should not take it personally, especially in the Issues and Politics section. Anyway Frank you have a Merry Christmas and a great New Year.

Joe Bob Thanks for the FYI, I knew it didnt sound quite right. Anyway all you congressional "Girlymen" grow a pair and get something done for a change, democrat and republican, stop the childlike behavior or you will all be out of a job. Oh-oh that would mean the TeaParty will get control and Sarah Palin becomes President, I guess things could get a lot worse in DC, lol.

Listen to you guys, ooo neat a new knot to put on my uniform with the 50 others already there. I thought we were supposed to be in this for the kids not our own personal ego trips, get a grip already.

As Arnold the Gubernator would say "They are acting like a bunch of nancyboys." Which pretty well sums up the current crop of Republican legislators, lol.

Sorry Gern but a constitutional amendment requiring a set exit plan before engaging our military is not only impractical and short sighted but it could lead to more casualties of our troops. If you had ever served in combat you would understand that any military campaign develops in the field once the commanders have a solid picture of the situation at hand. You can't do that in advance except on a very superficial basis.

As a former DE as well one thing I noticed was that many DE's and SE's suffer from severe Napoleonic Complexes where they feel the need to be in control of every aspect of what is happening in the district rather than trusting the district volunteers to do their jobs. I inherited two districts where this had been the case for the past decade so my first task was to reestablish the trust that had been lost during that time, thankfully after a few months I was able to do just that and had a very successful professional scouting career for about five years. My list would include: 1) Great people skills, able to work with a very diverse group of people. 2) Excellent organizational skills and experience. 3) Knows the priorities for the district and how to use their volunteers to their full potential in accomplishing those priorities. 4) Lastly select a person who realizes that they can not do the job alone, values all their volunteers,and puts the district needs first and foremost.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Basement I have been through WB21stCentury, and its predecessor both of which were very different experiences. In both classes we had some of those self important scouters Basement talks about and in one case we got all of them into one group and the rest of us proceeded to trounce them in all the games and activities which shut them down very quickly. The result was an immediate improvement in the tone of the class and the attitudes of the participants, while the staff seemed oblivious to the entire situation. Sometimes you need to stand up to these arrogant scouters and put them in their place. Half way through the course those same scouters came up to us during a break and apologized to the rest of the participants for being so rude and pushy, after that they acted more scoutlike and we all wound up havin a lot of fun. Is WB a cult? In some cases it can be if you allow it to happen in your council and district but it doesn't have to be.

I am frankly surprised at the open attitude being expressed here, which I happen to agree with. However don't be surprised when the CO/IH throws this situation back at you asking what you want to do. If the sponsor is a church and the pastor says she has got to go what then blame him or do you stand by her, since you stated she is a great crew member and officer? Most CO/IH's are not too intimately involved with their units to make a knowledgable decision. Only you and your crew know the entire background in this matter, and soliciting opinions from a forum where we do not know you, your crew, or the girl and her homelife in question is like asking for an uninformed, one sided decision which will not do you or the girl any good. This is not a simple stay or go decision because either one could have a long term detrimental effect on her, you, and your crew. Remember we adults are supposed to be in this for the youth, and I truly hope you have many in depth conversations with those directly involved before any decision is made, mad parents or not. Good Luck and I hope the decision made will be a constructive and positive one for her and the crew.

ASM While your quest is indeed a worthwhile one you may be tilting at windmills in your efforts to organize such a committee. First of all many denominations do not play well together, let alone planning an ecumenical religious retreat which many pastors would be dead set against because of "possible contamination of the boys religious beliefs." Many cities have a group of pastors who meet once a month for breakfast or lunch to discuss ideas of common interests and that might be a good place to start. I belong to such a group and we have a variety of community leaders coming to our meetings to ask for our assistance on different issues affecting the city, schools etc.

Some great posts here and I agree wholeheartily with what has been said. As far as earning Eagle only to "get a job or get into college" you have to believe that its the parents and not the boy that really want it. The same reasons kids want to excel in sports in high school to earn a college scholarship and a chance at the pros, even though 90% will never make it.

It really is a sad truth that the US Govt. has to play the same immoral games that our ally and enemy governments do to push our own interests in the world. What I find even sadder is that our allies Great Britian and Israel spy on us even more than our enemies do bringing to mind the old saying "No honor among thieves". Then again they do supply an abundance of material for all the spy movies and tv series we see today, the only question that remains is what about all the dark covert ops going on that never see the light of day? So the question then becomes how far is too far, and does the American public have the moral or legal right to know what these rogue underground secret agencies are doing?

Gary You have once again proved my point in the prior thread, LDS scouting is different than traditional scouting. Also I suggest that you look up the definition of guidelines versus dictates or mandates and I think that even you will have to agree the LDS scouting program handbooks falls under the latter. HAVE A GOOD EVENING!

Gee Gary I thought you said that the "LDS scouting program is run exactly the same as any other non LDS scouting program." Obviously that is not true since you need at least two other LDS publications/handbooks to administer your scouting program that the rest of us do not. Imagine that, lol.

Eagle92 Oh I don't think BSA will completely do away with uniforms just switch them over to less formal ones t-shirts,polo shirts, shorts, and scout jeans that will probably cost as much as the uniform does now. He tried this idea out when he was the SE at a council where I was a DE at the time, one year at summer camp and cub day camp no official uniforms were to be worn just the camp t-shirt and shorts, same thing for the staff for the entire summer. Believe it or not most of the scouts loved it as did the parents, the only complaints came from some of the scout leaders. It looks like cubs is already heading in this direction, can boy scouts be that far behind? We will see if your predictions come to pass.