BadenP

Eagle92 It has been a while since I helped out in Cubs but I have noticed more and more packs in my area are going without neckers, just the hat and shirt for most of them lately. With the direction National seems to be heading towards uniforms I forsee them becoming less and less formal over the next few years in all programs, I know thats what Mazzuca would love to see.

Anyone who really thinks that Palin is a competent candidate for president shows a real lack of education and intelligence. I don't think that even the Republicans are that stupid, but you never know, lol. Actually I hope they do pick her to run against Obama it will be nice to see Obama get re-elected so easily and by such a huge margin.

Stosh My guess on the problem with your boy leadership is that your troop is just too small, one patrol, less than 10 kids, is just not the norm and seems to have de-evolved into a club instead of a troop. I fear that if you can not bring in some new blood and program ideas and soon or your troop may no longer be viable, 300 feet or not.

I am beginning to suspect that this is just another money making scheme by National, the Buckskin Council is being used as a cover, that's why they have all of our emails. This is a National High Adventure Base, hosting National events so IMHO this is another Mazzuca scam to line the coffers at National, and at $75 a bottle I am sure of it, lol.

SS Yea I just got the email too. It looks like a legit offer but I wonder how much they are gonna charge? Probably more than I want to spend for a bottle of dirt and a letter from Mazzuca, lol. Happy Thanksgiving all, now back to the turkey.

Gary Yea, we can disagree,however what you put forth in this discussion as the LDS scouting program is full of half truths or outright falsehoods. I am not prejudice against LDS scouting at all, your own LDS brothers have told me the actual facts as did your own LDS church leaders at Philmont where we spent a week discussing the LDS scouting program in depth, something I would not have done if I were "prejudice against LDS scouting", as you have suggested. As I have said before you can state all you want that LDS scouting and traditional scouting is the exact same program but we both know that is just not true. By the way it may interest you to know that the LDS Venturing crews in our district have asked all the non LDS crews to help them plan an outdoor high adventure program for next year and to participate with us coed crews in more group activities because their program has been weak(according to the LDS advisors) and membership has gone way down as of late, go figure. That doesn't sound to me like we are prejudice against LDS scouts.

Camilam You seem to be confused with the difference between Catholic theology and the institutional practices of the clergy and so once again your argument falls flat on its face. You present a lot of double talk nonsense in your posts that is taken out of context or just not accurate to start with. If you are trying to impress us with your philosophical background you are failing miserably, as Scout Lass has been trying to point out to you.

Camilan, You claim to use reason to support your argument and yet I find it sorely lacking in your long posts rambling through philosophy, religion, and history misquoting all three fields to give your argument support which in reality they do not. The religious domination of the BSA structure from National down to the unit level, the BSA DRP,oath, and law makes it virtually impossible to affect any change in the BSA on this issue. It is not a matter of what may seem like a reasonable argument philosophically it is a matter of dealing with the reality of the situation, and that is where your argument lacks substance.

The anger is there against Obama because he knew he had to ramrod that Medical Bill through with the largely Democratic congress before the 2010 election, and that his $700 billion dollar bailout package did virtually nothing to improve the suffering economy. The big financial corporations made out like bandits awarding multi million dollar bonuses to their exec's, and laughing at Obama all the while. Bottom line the American people, Republican, Democrat, Independent, and Tea Party all feel betrayed by a guy who campaigned about bringing change to DC and then using his backroom Chicago style politics to set his own priorities rather than those of the American people. The result was Obamas misguided and misdirected programs have cost his fellow Democrats re-election and you will see more of the same in 2012. IMO, Obamas lack of politcal experience and expertise has really come to light. I hope for once he has finally realized this and really tries to do some good for this country, living up to his campaign promises and getting our country back on track before it is too late.

This issue has always been and will continue to be a nonstarter and a road to nowhere. Philosophical arguments are like clouds in the air, they move in every direction and contain very little substance at their core. There is no real solution to the "gay issue" because you either agree or disagree with it, there is no middle ground. IMO as long as religious institutions are the main chartering organizations in the BSA and control its rule makers the issue of gays in the BSA will never change no matter what argument you care to use.

Well I don't know about the Tea Party being racist but they sure are a bad judge of talent selecting Sarah Palin as their spokesperson and ramroding her immoral no talent daughter Bristol into the finals of Dancing with the Stars. What a world we live in today!

Yea Gary I think you lost that argument already in another thread. LDS does not only tweak the program they give advancement even when it is not legitmately earned by the BSA requirements.

Like it or not there are various companies and individuals who would rather donate goods, services, and money to their local scout units rather than the council. Why, because as soon as a company donates to a council they get bombarded with continual donation request letters, visits by the DE or SE in their suits always asking for more and more each year. I agree that an individual unit should not be asking for cash donations from companies, however for example if a restaraunt wants to donate food to a scouting event, that is not a violation of any rules since to the council it has no cash value to them. Sometimes they may give a cash donation to help support that unit and since it was not asked for that also is not a violation of the rules either. In my prior post here I mentioned the case of a sporting goods store donating new camping equipment to a poor and struggling troop. The troop had a beautiful plaque made to honor the store owner which he displays proudly in his office. When I asked him why he did it he told me that the local DE came in and told him that a company his size should be able to donate at least $1,000 to his district campaign, a month later the SE came in and told him that for a $5,000 contribution he would get his name added to a plaque in the council office. Next a small group of scouts came in with their meager troop fund to buy a new dining fly, they were admiring the camping equipment but told him it would be a long time before they could afford all that. Right there on the spot the store owner told me that he made his decision to give his donation to the troop, as he felt it was the right thing to do, much to the anger of the DE and SE who got zero from him. Rules is rules, yea maybe when the rules are fair and just and the funds really go to improving scouting at the unit level, and not the pockets of council executives.

Yah Beavah I see where you are coming from however the fact remains that too many troop programs have erroded to an opening and then playing B-Ball for the rest of the meeting and that is a MAIN reason we continue to lose scouts and troop numbers. I really think it is a rare exception than a general rule that a troop will have 30 new scouts trying to get in their troop every year. If the troop is already too big then that darn DE better get off his big arse and get some more formed or lose his job. The trouble with putting limits on numbers is one bad year and you find yourself with only 5-10 active scouts instead of thirty. To those rare handful of troops who are already too big, it is not that hard to incorporate a few more. As a SM I started with a troop of fifteen boys and 2 ASM's by the end of the fifth year the troop grew to over 60 boys and six ASM's. Each year you gear up for higher numbers by REQUIRING every parent to make a committment for the year, signing an agreement to that effect, and if they did not follow up on that committment it was understood their boy would not be in the program the next year. In over six years only one parent did not come through. Our PLC was just awesome and they took their responsibility very seriously in developing a new and exciting program each year. Bottom line, if you do not hold every boy, leader, and parent accountable you will quickly wind up running a one man show with a poorly run program, and maybe 5-6 boys if they are lucky.

To follow up on Beavah's post, If a troop can not keep 20 boys active because of lack of leaders or a poorly run program then it is time for the CO to step in and find new leadership, there is no excuse for a troop to turn away any boy. The troop is too big, whatever that number is, is usually the reason given and yet I have seen troops of 60+ boys run smooth and efficent programs, no one left behind, why, because they allow the boys to run the program as scouting is supposed to be run. Usually it is in an adult controlled and run unit that the number issue even comes up, and it usually in these units that the numbers show large numbers of inactive or dropouts each year. I am willing to bet that those leaders who turn away boys each year is because those units have become so insulated, elitist, and privatized that they don't even realize it. With the continuing drop in boy scout numbers and troops nationwide are we leaders willing to say NO to a boy who really wants to be a scout?

I agree with Beavah, if it is a cash donation large or small you might set off a red flag however if it is a retailer giving you some surplus goods they no longer want or sell that is not such a big deal. As a DE working on the district corporate campaign there was a coffee company who would donate cofee for our summer camp and council office, it was never asked for but the CEO insisted in filling my car with cases of the stuff whenever he saw me. He was an Eagle scout and a great scouting supporter. If a large trailer company owner decided to give a troop a trailer without being solicited by that troop there is really nothing the council could do about it. Case in point there was an owner of a chain of sporting good stores who saw that the troop he belonged to as a youth was going through some difficult times, their equipment was sparse and really in bad shape. Without anyone saying anything to him he had one of his trucks loaded up with brand new camping equipment of all kinds, tents, sleeping bags,etc., and had it delivered anonymously to the troop last Christmas. So I guess it is a matter of how the council interprets the rules and more to the point if it affects the councils own corporate FOS campaign donations.

gwd I know how you feel. When I decided to leave my troop after years there it was hard, but I moved over to Venturing and got a crew built up from nothing to a very large and active one. Last year I decided to step down from advisor to become the Committee chair and COR after eight years. You know what though, the new leaders still come and ask for advice, I am still invited to go on their outings by them and the teens, and I think you will experience the same thing with your troop. You may have changed positions but you still are and will continue to be a vital part of keeping that troop prospering. Good Luck and enjoy watching what you helped to build keep growing.

Scoutfish, my observations are not based on one individual or LDS units in my time as a DE alone but based on a week at Philmont during the summer on the "The LDS Church and Scouting" usually only attended by LDS scouters and with the presentations made by LDS church hierarchy and the LDS Scouting Association. Now you tell me where else you can get such a complete or better understanding of LDS scouting? Secondly, as I stated previously, I have no problem with the LDS scouting program and the service those scouters give to their youth, I wish them all the best. But Gary and Bart are blowing smoke when they state that LDS scouting is exactly the same as traditional scouting programs because if you or anyone else here read their literature, went on an LDS conference/camporee or attended Philmont during the LDS Scouting week you would see for yourself as I did when I attended all of these events. The LDS freely admit that their scouting program is "uniquely fashioned and geared towards young men achieving the Aaronic Priesthood"( a direct quote from an LDS church leader presentation at Philmont). So I have NO prejudices or dislikes of the LDS Church or their scouting program, as some of my best friends are LDS scouters. They work as hard with their units as we do with ours and their boys develop leadership skills just as ours do, but the LDS focus in scouting is not the same as non LDS units. I encourage any of you to go to an LDS scouting event and/or conference so you can find out for yourselves as I did. The LDS scouters are great friendly people who love scouting and are always open to an outsider wanting to learn more about their program. They are our scouting brothers and I wish them well.

Excuse me jhankins but I think I will take the words of your church hierarchy over those of some anonymous posters in this forum anyday. You keep telling yourself whatever you want but LDS scouting is NOT, NOT the same program as traditional scouting, your church elders have said so during Philmont LDS Week but I guess you think you know better than they do. Anyone, non LDS, who is really interested can find out the truth for themselves as I did. Your kids may earn the same badges but the LDS program is a church modified program from traditional scouting programs. Maybe you should listen to your own church hierarchy sometime, you might find it illuminating.

Bart My, my, my you are beginning to sound like a catholic priest. Stating LDS is the only true faith towards salvation. If I remember my graduate school theology classes correctly Jesus was neither LDS or Catholic, so your comment is way off base since God has no favorites. Your categorization of all other faiths is what is truly false, as for my knowledge of the LDS remember I was invited by my LDS volunteers as a DE to attend Philmont for the LDS Church and Scouting week at which I learned quite a bit about the goals and mission of the LDS church theology and how they use scouting to achieve those goals. I have read the Book of Mormon and other books on Joseph Smith, etc.. What you and Gary have stated is that the LDS scouting program is the exact same as any traditional scouting program when you and I both know that simply is not true. LDS use the scout handbooks but what the boys are indoctrinated with are church doctrines and missionary preparation first and foremost. I have no problem with LDS scouting, except when certain individuals insist it is the exact same program as traditional scouting when your own church leadership from Salt Lake told all of us at Philmont that week something entirely different. So my point to you is don't kill the messenger your own leadership looked upon LDS scouting as "a call to the holy priesthood", if you don't agree write to Salt Lake they were the ones who said it, not me.

Hey Box As I said in my last post, you really need to grow up dude, and learn not to take yourself so seriously, I know I don't.

Scoutbox This forum is about expresing opinions if you don't like it too bad, time for you to grow up a little. With Mazzuca at the helm now you may see the BSA go the same way, sooner than later, as he has always been impressed with the British scouting organization. So buck up Box, lol.

One of the problems I see in LDS scouting working against them is that their leaders are called to service ,instead of volunteering, for one year and then move on. Some do stay on but most do not, from what I have seen personally and told by LDS scouters. This results in inconsistencies in the way the program is delivered, lack of training of the leaders, and probably why the LDS has to put more emphasis on the priesthood aspect than traditional scouting programs. I would be interested in your take on this Bart.

Yah, a great video. It is nice to see that the UK has quite successfully integrated girls in all aspects of the program, and yet we in the USA can't seem to get it done, too many "old Dinosaurs" still influencing the BSA I think.

Gary I try to be open minded, but the literature I read corresponds closely to the information on the site OGE referenced, but lets put all the literature aside for a moment, which seems to support my viewpoint rather than yours. My personal experience with LDS scouting as both a SM and DE: 1)The troops tend to be small 5-6 boys. 2)All LDS troops I have had contact with have an extremely high number of Eagles,50-75% and many by the age of 13. 3)At district events the LDS troops show a sad lack of scout skills during contests and competitions. 4)LDS SM's tend to have less training than their counterparts and very few show more than a very rudimentary knowledge of basic scout skills. 5)LDS troops tend to be loners rather than joiners. 6)You yourself have stated that "church doctrines and scripture are a central part of each troop meeting, and that the scouting and Aaronic priesthood compliment each other." This is only true because the LDS Church has so modified and changed the scouting program that they fit the scouting within the Aaronic Priesthood preparation and not the other way around as it should be if it were truly a boy scout program. Still Gary you seem like an honest and well intended scouter who cares about his boys, but your own church's literature makes no real distinction or seperation between scouting and the priesthood and LDS Scouting veers way off the pathway of traditional scout programs.