BadenP

I agree that presenting a set of challenges is a key to keeping older boys in scouting, the question is which ones. Lets be realistic here by the age of 15 or 16 boys no longer look at running around with 11-13 year olds as fun, even if they are given leadership roles, and lets not forget the girl issue. The quality of much of the BSA leadership training for adults and kids deserves much of the blame. Kudu is correct when he says that the boy scout program has been "dumbed down" for decades now, as well as an evergrowing pool of undertrained and non trained leadership. No matter what you may think of online training it is a supplemental training method, at best, and not a primary one. Unless the boys at National wake up and get their heads out of their collective as*es this problem will only get worse with more and more boys dropping out and troops going under. You can't just read a book on brain surgery and then go out and perform it, you need a great deal of training and refresher training first, the same is true with scouting and yet for years now we just give a leader a book send him to a four hour class, which is now online, and think he is ready to take a group of boys out into the wilderness camping. It is almost laughable if the results weren't so disasterous and potentially dangerous. Then we wonder why the older boys leave the program by 15/16, but it really isn't rocket science if you think about it.

I agree with others here stating that BL is little more than a shameless advertisement magazine with a couple of articles thrown in. I have an old 1935 Boys Life I found at a store for $1 what a difference in the quality of the articles, it is hard to believe just how much this quality has erroded away over the years. Oh well magazines like newspapers will soon be a thing of the past as everything goes online. The BL editors are beating a dead horse with this one.

IMO the whole topic being discussed here is bordering on the absurd. The BSA and AHG have nothing in common, and serve two very different purposes. A merger of the two organizations is not only impractical but improbable. Come back to reality people. If the BSA wants to make the organization coed then they should, but this seperate but equal idea didn't work with the GSA and will not work with the AHG either.

oldsm I think Scoutnut summed it all up very neatly, "It is none of their business". No place in an EBOR, SM Conference or any other boy scout function. This is a YP issue only and the way to deal with it is spelled out there. You get a board or other group of adults involved in this matter you are just asking for a lawsuit. Let the boy get his Eagle without having to account for his families behavior. YPT and its procedures are there for a reason, use them, you are not law enforcement or a legal guardian so watch where you step.

This homogenized, neutral, and watered down style of one size fits all training of scout leaders justs proves how out of touch the current regime at National truly is to the needs of specialized training that scouters really need to be effective leaders. IMO, the new online basic training may be more convienent but in the long run will make the problem of untrained or undertrained leaders even worse. The group dynamic has always been the most useful high point in all scouter training, IMO, and these new online basics eliminate that altogether.

I kinda agree with Beavah and with many things that Kudu is passionate about. I have taken both the old and current versions of WoodBadge and my opinion of each is based as much on the quality of the presenters as it is the material being presented. I do not believe that WB is the reason for the ,"downfall of scouting", as Kudu suggests, but it has IMO put a different focus on the direction scouting is taking. Personally I think Mazzuca, and National are really out of touch with what scouting is truly about, what makes it unique and why it is vital that we retain that essence and uniqueness if we want scouting to remain truly scouting as envisioned by B-P, Seton, Beard, Hillcourt, etc. It is always easier to say times are changing and so must scouting in order to remain relevant to the youth of today. Change just for the sake of change can many times have disasterous results, as we saw with scouting in the 70's.

One of the common complaints I hear in this forum is that all a DE is concerned about is Money and Numbers and is usually out of touch with whats going on program wide in their districts and council. The council I was a DE for was a small council with a very limited budget and the DE being camp director was one way of connecting with the council volunteers and seeing scouting was much more than money and numbers. A good camp director needs to know how to be a good organizer, put out all the little fires that occur among staff, and deal with all the problems that come up at camp. With all three DE's trained as CD's there was consistency and stability year to year, and yes it was a nice break from the business end of scouting. With councils shrinking or being absorbed in other ones or disappearing altogether at an all time high, and a long term recession, it justs seem fiscally irresponsible to create five new full time positions that will not bring in enough additional income to the council to pay for themselves. Personally I think being a CD made us better DE's. There are always pluses and minuses with any approach you take but IMHO the path shortridges council took was a fiscally irresponsible one.

well shortridge That is five additional salaries which total over $250,000 a year (with benefits) or more for an eight week program, some in your council may not think that is a wise investment. In any case the council I was in as a DE we each took turns being camp director as part of our regular duties, the only investment was the cost of sending each of us to National Camp School. Must be nice to be in a council where they can add five additional year round paid positions to the staff. By the way how does your FOS campaign turn out each year?

jhankins I think your reply is a little more idealistic than it is realistic. If a council SE really is using donations to the benefit of the members that will be seen in an increase or improvement in the quality of the facilities and programs the council offers offers, this will make an FOS campaign much easier to sell to prospective donors. However if the money is being used for hiring more professionals or giving large raises to those on staff then you got a real problem. Donors want to see a return on their investment, they want a visible scouting presence helping out in their communities, a great camp where scouts can hone their skills, and young people becoming productive leaders and citizens, to name a few. Instead what many wind up seeing is a revolving door of scouting professionals who don't stay long enough to have any real connection to the community or the scouters and scouts in the council. Money being squandered on pet projects of the SE, council camps having to be sold out to pay for fiscal mismanagement by the professionals, and a shrinking number of youth involved with scouting. That's why FOS fails to make its goals in many councils, prospective donors no longer see it as a good investment.

Eagle92 Most packs go through this kind of problem when the top dog steps down, everyone wants to have a say in the direction the pack will be heading. It happened with the pack I was involved with as a WDL when the CM resigned when his boy aged out. The main thing is to remind the DL's and committee that you are there first and foremost for the boys and not the adult leaders personal wants. The new parents seeing dissension among the pack adult leaders will be hesitant to step up and volunteer, the pack has to show them that all will continue on just as before and the transition will be without a hitch. Use the CO and pack committee to iron out any SERIOUS differences among the leaders behind closed doors and not at the pack meetings. Lastly whoever takes over as the new CM make sure they are a firm and strong leader who will listen to others but be in control and make the tough decisions. It seems more difficult then it actually is to maintain stability, and whoever is selected as the next CM has got to be a strong leader first and foremost, not necessarily a former den leader or someone with an extensive scouting background. Good Luck.

Eagle 92 I agree with you about the different configurations of "ships" out there. I think Bart is just going for some kind of record of the most posts possible here, in another thread he asks and answers his own question, lol. His lack of experience and understanding about scouting really shows in his posts.

One other option, see if your council has a Law Enforcement Explorer Post. These young people will really be able to relate to your boys what it is like learning about and working with law enforcement agencies in your area.

I think that Eagle92's assessment is the closest to the truth about National. Unless they can see a BIG influx of membership or money they really don't give a rat's ass about ANY ideas coming from the outside scouters in the field. So the less any unit or district depends on National to solve their problems the better off they will be.

CPA Mom Here you go, www.cert-kits.com/scouts, good luck on your fundraiser.

Penta You may be surprised to see what a 1st class or 2nd class scout can do when placed in a leadership position. As a youth I was a patrol leader after making 1st class, while it would be nice to have star, life or eagles to draw from but the patrol method can work perfectly fine in a young troop without them. Eventually you will have those same boys advance to those ranks with some great leadership skills under their belts.

So many packs and troops in our area have gone away from selling popcorn because the cost keeps rising and the sales keep shrinking, and have come up with new and innovative ideas. One pack and troop have been selling auto emergency kits at car shows and fairs that go for $5 for the small basic kit to $25 for the deluxe one and they sell out every time, as well as making much more than they did selling popcorn. I think the whole popcorn thing has become such a headache it is time to move on to something more practical and less pricy.

I like Penta's perspective, in a cub pack there are usually a number of den leaders,and a CM that the den leader can go to with problems that may arise. In a scout troop the SM is usually out there on his own, yea he may have a ASM or two to help out but even they depend on his leadership and supposed skills and experience. This is why I feel that the patrol method is so VITAL to the survival of any troop, without that functioning youth leadership structure in place the teaching of leadership skills will never take place. Too many troops become paramilitary oriented with the SM as the drill sergeant or the troop becomes nonfunctional, meeting once a week only to play basketball or some other sport. IMHO, all the SM's and ASM's need to be not only better trained in scouting skills, but in how to make the patrol method an effective and essential part of every troop program.

HMMM, a bunch of self admitted drug abusers among the posters here who are scout leaders working with our youth kinda makes you wonder.

SS Scout Well said and very true. It is too bad the so called economic experts and government officials in this country don't get it, and neither do the leaders of industry. the old adage you get what you pay for is very appropiate with BSA going to third world countries for all of their needs. Why do you think Airbus is subsidized, to make it competitive and able to underbid Boeing and other companies.

I just viewed it myself and all I can say is it is nice the national employees have so much time on their hands while earning those big salaries, however the graphics looked good. Did anyone else notice that when you move the male adult leader he staggers like he is drunk, lol, maybe another trait at National.

Beav What was the source of your diatribe, Monty Python and the Holy Grail? You grossly mistate the power the popes had over royalty until Henry the VIII finally told the pope the hell with you and started his own church, after the reformation the rest followed suit and the RC church's stranglehold over European politics was gone forever, except in Spain and Italy. Anyway if you want a list of books to learn what really happened pm me. The ridiculous statements several posters have put out really brings to light the poor quality of their education and understanding of world history. You all can battle on if you like but I am done with this thread.

Aw Beav Look at who called for and financed the Crusades, Pope Innocent III for one, not political powers who at that time were mere dupes of the Pope. He made the crusades a religious holy war to free Jerusalem from the infidels, in other words justifiable and church sanctioned genocide. I never blamed anyone but the institutional part of the church of Rome for these abominations and I will put up my understanding of the Crusades against yours anytime, eh! Lance I know you can't help but believe the dribble you were taught at your Catholicism in a Nutshell course you took to become a deacon, but just because you can wear the fancy robes and preach the gospel at mass does not make you anymore enlightened or knowledgeable than any other person, maybe all that incense has gotten to your head a little bit. Of course you could always go to a legitimate graduate theology school and learn the true story. Pax Christi.

perdidochas The historic events alone prove my point, and as far as scholarship is concerned modern day religious scholars on both sides are much more ecumenically educated than their predecessors of centuries ago. The RC Church has admitted to most of their aggregious actions of the past and has begged for forgiveness in recent times, too bad they didn't feel the same before putting all those people to death back when. OGE I have many priest friends who believe the church is headed or spiraling backwards to a time of religious intolerance, superiority and a total breakdown of ecumenical dialogue. They are good men who feel that the Vatican II changes were sorely needed to prevent the RC church from becoming an irrelevant,anachronistic empty tradition, as did Pope John XXIII, and now feel all of that progress made is lost with Benedict. I was a Catholic and have many Catholic friends, some who are priests and we discuss these things, you would be surprised how many Catholics disagree with the direction of the hierarchy.

Lance You really need to read some religious history books not written by the Catholic hierarchy. Your council references are totally innaccurate as is your understanding of church history, no doubt from the biased training you received to become a deacon. The Catholic Church has redacted as well as blatantly misrepresented what happened in the early church, and your discourse sounds like something straight out of the propaganda office at the Vatican. Defend your faith all you want but history has shown that the Catholic Church has used their power in the past to justify the oppression and murder of any individual or group that opposed them or their twisted theology and biblical interpretation. There are countless examples of this abuse the most prominent, the Crusades, the Inquistions, censorship and murder of scholars and theologians who showed the church's interpretations were not true, and of course the current worldwide clergy abuse issues that the church has kept underwraps for decades. How anyone can defend this religion claiming to be the only true and valid church that Christ founded, which is blatantly false, shows a complete lack of study or understanding of the true nature of this organization who has gone to great extremes to supress the truth from their own members and the world. You have the right to follow Catholicism but don't try to soft pedal it as something it is not to the rest of the world. The Catholic Church is NOT "the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church", it claims to be, history has proven that it's teaching as well as it's actions have resulted in a total lack of credibility for their theology, rituals, and self governance.

It really frosts me to hear a SM give up on something his boys want to do before doing any real research. As others have put it so plainly there are plenty of birds and wildlife to track in the desert. I lived in the open desert for five years and there was plenty of wildlife for tracking visible right outside my back door. What about quail, roadrunners, non poisonous reptiles. You can also try your local natural history museum or university for ideas.