BadenP

Just got stopped today at the grocery store by Campfire hawking their stuff. The candy is up to $5 this year as are the two small cans of nuts. These were the little tykes so I bought a can of the nuts. All this makes me wonder what are we really teaching the kids forcing them to sell this stuff, and what message are we truly sending to them and the public at large.

John You just missed the point alltogether once again. It does not matter if the leaders are squabbling, someone is going to have to shape up or go and that decision, if neither unit wants to go get a new CO, is up SOLELY to the COR/CO.

acco That is because females can only become members as an an adult leader!

Roadkill I am sure he will do fine, especially if another friend from his troop is going through it at the same time. The experience he will remember for years to come.

SP You and others obviously misunderstand the relationship between the CO and its units. These problems exsist because a new pack or troop will run to any organization and tell them sponsor us, all you have to do is sign some papers and let us use your building and we will do the rest. Honestly this is just plain fraud on the part of these leaders who are LYING to the potential CO in the first place, and then gripe when the COR has nothing to do with the unit. This scenario unfortunately is probably true for over 80% of the scouting units in the BSA. The council should be the first to correct this before they approve any new unit application, but since they are only concerned with numbers they do not bother to tell the CO what really is expected of them. So in essence the system itself is broken and the leaders are as guilty as the council of allowing this miscommunication and noninvolvement of the CO to continue. Then the leaders scream when a council sells a camp and can't get their COR to go to the council meetings and evoke their voting rights to stop it, it is their own fault. Any leader who complains that their CO/COR has nothing to do with their unit has no one to blame but themselves for not developing a relationship with them or maybe selecting the wrong CO in the first place. If the unit leaders do not take it on themselves to correct these things they have no right to COMPLAIN in the first place.

Truefully folks not all scout shops are equal or enforce the rules equally. The shop in my area is a National one and I can and have gone in there and purchased Eagle patches and medals for gifts without any paperwork and never was questioned once. This is true for many other so called restricted items as well.

I think this is yet another case where unit leaders want to keep all the power to themselves and not involve the CO. Even if the parents don't know you can bet the troop and pack committees know who their CO & COR are and have chosen to keep them in the dark while not even attempting to try to resolve this issue with each other. In reality according to the charter agreement the unit committees do not have the authority to exclude the CO, active or not, and who owns the units, from becoming involved in this situation. The end result could be the CO tells both units to go elsewhere.

SP Having once led a unit sponsored by a Catholic church and knowing what the pastor expected, mainly Catholic prayers and a Catholic bent on a scout is reverent, I can understand what those parents were saying to you, they were looking for a more ecumenical or an all inclusive approach to the DRP. They probably will feel more at home with a troop sponsored by say a service club where the religious aspect is more minimalistic in its application.

Moose Nice story you made up there but none of that was in the original post. Fox, from his posts,apparently does not like Venturing, especially because crews are coed, okay he is entitled to his opinion. However someone invited the crew to the event and Fox is mainly upset because they participated in and won an event, which IMO is a way over the top reaction. Fox Yes it is Boy Scouts of America but coed scouting has been around a long time, starting with the original Exploring program, Sea Scouting, and Venturing and is not going away anytime soon. Kids of today are very different from kids fifty years ago, and unlike many adult scouters do not seem to have a problem with coed scouting. Now this seems to be one isolated case which you can bring up at the next roundtable to see if your fellow troop leaders agree with you and make any necessary changes for the future. If you are just looking for a sympathetic ear for your own viewpoint I am sure you will find a few in here. Look, scouting has been in a state of continual change over the years, some of them good and some not so good, but it is not going to stop just because a few old time scouters want to preserve the program of fifty years ago.

JM Ditto what Beavah said. You seem to still be missing the point, these units are not independent self contained entities able to do whatever they wish, they belong to the CO who are the ones liable should anything happen. In this case at the present time the CO is going to probably lose one or both of these units, and to say you should not get them involved is plain stupidity, not to mention a breach of the charter agreement.The obligations of a CO are spelled out very well in COR training, which should be mandatory for all COR's, and it is a whole lot more than providing a place to meet and signing leader applications.

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Fox76 Did you ever stop to think that maybe the boys let the girls win on purpose? As another poster stated the purpose of a Klondike is to have fun, if your boys had fun that is all that matters. Getting ribbons and awards really seems much more important for the leaders than it is for the kids. I'll tell you what many of the girls in my crew can really kick the boys butts in some outdoor events and no one ever seems to get upset or mind at all.

JM Unfortunately your answer does nothing to solve the ever growing division between these pack and troop leaders. Even if they are paper only COR's the responsibility to clear up this mess rests with them since the leaders are unable to resolve the dispute. Maybe if units made a real effort to really get to know their COR and got them involved with their programs once in a while, and got them to attend committee meetings then many of these disputes would get nipped early on. Instead this kind of childishness among the leaders could end up with one or both of these units folding up or being tossed out by the CO.

Dennis First of all this a boy scout meeting not a frigin high school debate club Roberts rules just have no place. Second a good SM will OBSERVE quietly in the background a PLC meeting and if he sees a problem pull the SPL aside after it is over and offer him some guidance, and then see how it goes the next week. IMO a SM should never barge in and take control of a PLC meeting, otherwise these boys will never learn how to lead and it undermines one of the major tasks of scouting, "teaching leadership skills". Bylaws at the troop level should exsist ONLY if the boys WANT them and CREATE them on their own. Lastly it is okay to allow your PLC to fail once in a while, it is part of the learning process. It is just too easy for adult leaders who see something they don't like to want to dive in and take control, and then you have an adult led troop which runs contrary to the purposes of scouting. You can advise your boys but never dictate to them because all that does is create bad morale and stifles their ability to lead.

The really sad part is that probably 90% of the viewers and fans in the arena (didn't?) even realize she had made a mistake. I agree that the decorum of many of the players really sucked but that is life and none of us here or anyone else can change it. Did you all see George W and Condie Rice in the VIP box? Kind of a nice touch. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Sounds like sour grapes to me Fox 76. When I was a DE we had the Explorers (pre venturing days) at our Klondikes, they were search and rescue, law enforcement, fire rescue,and high adventure posts. Mostly they were there to show off their specialties and help officiate the events, but some participated in a few events and no one seemed to mind when a couple of them took first. Fox you need to stop looking at these situations as Us versus Them, scouts are there for the fun and as long as the event is fun it doesn't really matter who wins does it?

Look this has been bantered all around and the same correct answers have been given multiple times, to keep rehashing the same stuff seems counterproductive. If the troop and pack committee and leaders refuse to act like adults in solving this dilema then it is up to the COR and the CO to take and control and mandate change after all these units belong to them, no one else has that authority, period. It really is so sad that adults who volunteer their time to help youth act like a bunch of children themselves. Where is the scouting spirit that should bring them together not drive them apart. IMO, after listening to Kamelian, it sounds like a few key leaders who are causing the problems need to step down, and only the CO and COR can make that happen. Otherwise this childish nonsense will just continue to escalate.

Kamelian That's what your COR is for to deal with this kind of problem. It sounds like you all need to sit down together and hash things out, and if necessary the COR can effect the needed changes,set some guidelines, including replacing some leaders, if necessary.

Who knows with National and with Mazzucca at the helm they may just come out with a whole new program called Venturing Explorers where you just do whatever you want with no structure, awards, uniforms, or handbooks.

iduncans The new Venturing handbook still isn't out yet and nothing on the NAtional site either so it is anyones guess.

Sounds like a Troll Alert to me emb021. A troll who needs some real help with spelling, sentence structure, and grammar.

Pack Not serious or contentious is a huge understatement, poor John must be going through a rough patch. By the way have you heard about the little creature from your neck of the woods? It is called the "Southern Sucking Cuttlefish", it inhabits the swampy areas of the deep south and is closely related to the NW tree octopus.

Gee John Quit being such a stick in the mud, what's the matter no sense of humor, lol. I hope you don't act like that around your scouts otherwise you might get called "Ol Mr. Crochety". To all you budding chefs out there try frying the beast in hot seasoned oil and you get some great fried calamari, add some wild edible mushrooms from the forest and you get a great wilderness dinner and a great lesson for your scouts in wilderness foraging. Buona Apetite!

I'm no lawyer John but a statement that you may or even will start up a new unit sometime in the future just won't cut it legally. jhankins is correct, under the BSA charter rules all the equipment goes to the CO to do with as they wish, if they fold their unit then it goes to the council. I don't like it either but thats the way the BSA has it set up under the charter agreement. At one council I was in the SE would hold an annual sale of all the equipment turned over to them from folded units. It was kind of sad to see the troop numbers of these now defunct units on this stuff as people scowered for bargains.

John, John, John All you need to do is reference any book on Cryptozoology and you will find the critter listed with a complete life history. I think Scientific American ran an article about them a couple of years back. Don't be such a skeptic John, lol. Ed: If you add tomato sauce to your receipe they taste just like Eggplant Parmisian, mmmmmm good.