BadenP

SP Then you have misread or misunderstood my posts or lack enough scouting experience as an adult leader. You seem to misread a lot of posters on this forum and your own criticisms are showing your lack of grasping the content of many of the posts here. I am not talking at all about wearing a few knots on your uniform either. Maybe when you get more experience working on a council or distict level of scouting you will understand better.

First and foremost until the actual cause of death is verified it is improper to point fingers. The three National reps interviewed did a horrible job, IMO, not owning up to sometimes things happen, instead just saying I wasn't in my position then or I wasn't there. Anyone who has been a scout leader can tell you of one or more times when a scout got sick or injured on an outing and the procedures for handling that situation. The 2005 Jamboree clip really showed National to be out of touch and ill prepared with the heat situation. To me this interview really cast the BSA officials and organization in a bad light, unresponsive, untrustworthy, and unknowledgeable. Indeed if these two scoutmasters continued to push the boys after noticing them starting to show signs of heat stroke then this lawsuit will be another slamdunk against scouting.

emb021 I agree being in the "upper level" scouting positions does not necessarily mean they do not support the kids, however decorating your uniform with myriads of knots you have to wonder what the real motive is other than look at me and all I have done, especially if they have never been a unit leader. The most impressive scout leader I have ever met was my former scoutmaster and he wore just one knot, even though he had earned almost every award and recognition that a scouter can earn, an Eagle knot which was a little worn with age. I asked him once why he didn't get a new knot to replace the worn one, and he said that the worn knot was given to him by his scoutmaster when he made Eagle and he wore it as a tribute to him, not his own accomplishments. That man, IMHO, was a true scouter who really understood and embraced the true meaning of scouting. So you see why when I witness these pompous types, many of whom have never been a scout or were ever a unit leader working with the kids, but literally have bought their way into the "upper levels" of scouting with their uniforms blazoned with all kinds of knots, medals, pins and patches and acting like they run the council, training, and programs that it kinda ticks me off.

Wow, sorry you guys took my posts as an attack on any of you which they were not. Rather my point was to show how this knot thing can get way out of hand and some of the people I have dealt with who wear multitudes of knots on their uniforms who care only for their own ego, most of them are not even unit leaders who work with the kids, rather district and council volunteers. If you want to wear 100 knots on your uniform its fine by me but don't try to defend it by saying you are in scouting just for the kids because clearly those type of scouters are not. Don't worry be happy!

Gee Hawk, waa, waa, waa. I think that you will find in most councils the scouters who wear 4,5,6 rows of knots are indeed in it for Themselves, they usually control council and district positions of importance, training, esp. WoodBadge, camping, finance and activities for example. While some are indeed very nice dedicated scouters most of them are pretty self absorbed blowhards figuring how to go from getting the silver beaver to the silver antelope to the silver buffalo awards, could care less about the kids, and act like they are in charge of the council. One guy I know has no less than eight rows of knots, 4 beader WB beads and more patches and pins than a five star general on his uniform, his red coat has the patches of every position and place he has ever held or visited. On top of that he freely admits that he hates kids, goes out of his way to intimidate scouters, and that scouting should really be for the adults. Unfortunately the number of these individuals seems to be growing each year in scouting instead of diminishing.

Twocub, that is exactly what you told 83 I suggest you reread your own post For the record the COR and the CO are NOT the same thing, one represents the other.

I think this is more a battle of semantics than anything else, and Frank does make a valid point, bylaws, rules of conduct, lodge rules, whatever you want to call them this is a youth run program and the major input should be from the youth. Most units in my time in scouting have had some sort of conduct code but how they were followed or enforced is where it gets a litle murky. I think as far as a units adult committee is concerned the BSA materials do a pretty good job describing chain of command and procedural policies without the need of formal bylaws. If you want to teach youth leadership and policy making skills they first need to learn how to formulate realistic , doable, and obtainable goals which are not overly oppressive. Remember the overall goal of scouting is to have fun not to be mired down with a bunch of rules and regulations that take all the fun out of the program.

ScoutNut Look if thats what 83's intent is thats fine, reading his posts though it seems like he wants to have all the power in the pack reserved for the CM which is not a healthy situation for any pack. If he is trying to build a team to help him run the pack fine, but if his goal is to select candidates who will do only what he wants then thats a problem. 83's posts seem to lean toward the later situation.

Hawk Not judging just trying to prove a point, how many knots do you have on your uniform anyway? Boy scouts is not about how to advance or earn recognition for yourself it is about helping the kids earn that recognition, too many scout leaders seem to forget that and instead try to live or relive the scouting of their youth. Which are you Hawk?

Twocub Interesting that in this thread you advise "that the unit belongs to the CO", yet on the other thread about an inactive CC/COR you advise 83eagle to ignore the CO and set up his own committee, you can't have it both ways dude! Boy scouts is supposed to be boy led and adult advised unfortunately too many adult leaders don't get that. Of course the boys should have a large input into anything that affects their program.

For some reason I find this thread and the posts in it pretty humorous. It is like watching a bunch of moths flying into a bug zapper, every one trying something new to get to the light but all winding up the same way "poof", lol. I am happy for you who think this little bit of cloth is so important that you just have to get it before it is even officially out. Will it make you a better scouter or just coddle your own ego?

I think many of you here have missed the point, if 83Eagle decides to plan a coup and the current CC/COR finds out and wants the job then he/she would be within her rights as COR to dismiss 83 and replace him with a new CM. Even if she doesn't want to keep the job if she feels threatened by 83 she could still dismiss him as her last official act, in either case it will be bad news for 83. I agree that the best course of action for 83 is to meet with him/her find out what her plans are before he attempts to make any changes. Like it or not the power lies with the COR not the CM and council will side with the COR if it gets that far. You know the old saying "We can do this the easy way or the hard way, you choose."

83 Not accusing, but I have been part of two units where the CM and SM ran them like their personal boot camps, the kids had no fun and the parents got angry and left and both units went under, which in these cases was for the best. Yes, CO's can be the uninvolved kind that say do what you want which is okay if the unit is not run like a dictatorship but by a committee who know their jobs and work like a team with the CM, otherwise all you wind up with is chaos.

83 Hands off or not only your CO can officially appoint a new CC so you better get their prior approval before you just put someone new in that role to keep it all legit. A pack like yours where one person wields all the power is not only operating outside the guidelines of the BSA but is truly a receipe for disaster that may prevent the pack from growing and flourishing as it should. Still, I understand your frustration but this is the time to let other people in to help you not to try to manipulate them to do only what you want but what is best for the kids longterm.

Addendum: the CC/COR is the only dual registered position allowed by the BSA Barry and Twocub, the CM DOES NOT have the authority to change or appoint anyone to a new position without the backing of the CO's COR or IH under BSA charter regulations.

83Eagle First of all the guy is the CC/COR, which is allowed by the way by the BSA, in essence 83 you work for him not the other way around. As COR he represents the CO and signs off on all unit volunteers, including CM. The ONLY recourse you have in this situation is to go to the IH (Institutional Head) of the CO and explain the situation if he agrees with you ONLY he has the authority under charter to remove this individual. However be careful where you tread because he may tell the IH you are the problem and you could find yourself out of a job. Try talking to the CC first, tell him your frustrations, if that doesn't work then go to the IH and talk to him, if that still does not work you probably ought to start up another pack if you have enough other parents to go with you. Last point don't try to appeal to your council SE or DE because unless it is a child abuse issue they will not get involved. Good Luck.

Dean is so right , the same old same old stuff regurgitated for another year is the death knoll for not only cubs but scouts as well. If they get to do everything too soon or whether some paper pusher at National rules certain activities will not be allowed these restrictions for the most part are killing scouting. If they can't do certain fun activities with scouts there are plenty of other programs available where they can.

For shortridge: Source OA Handbook under Organization, "Annually the Scout Executive appoints a volunteer as lodge adviser in consultation with the chair of the council camping committee and lodge chief. The lodge adviser assists the Scout Executive in guiding the operation of the lodge program and SERVES AS A MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL CAMPING COMMITTEE." Nowhere in any of my scout literature from National training or volunteer training or any of my BSA pub's does it state that the lodge chief is a voting member of the council camping committee. The handbook further states that the chief with the lodge camping promotion committee, "develops plans for camp promotion in consultation with the camping committee." Nowhere is there mention of membership in or voting privileges for any OA youth officer. In all the councils I have been associated with this is the way it has always been done and is currently being done in my current council. So if this is not correct then all five councils are wrong and I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary, including the National BSA site.

As Eagle92 showed in his last post there is definitely a difference in what is happening at the council level nationwide. Shortridge the OA handbook applies only to the running of the lodge, NOT the council, even if it says the OA chief should be or is supposed to be a member of any council committee National policy is that the SE is the one to make that call, no one else. There are many examples of contradictions in BSA literature but the National policy is that council committee membership is the purview of the SE and Exec. members of the council. Personally it does not matter to me whether or not the lodge chief is or is not a member of the camping committee, but the OA handbook is not the final authority in the matter.

Barry I agree with you. However if we, or more to the point National, does nothing to fix this problem then IMO we will start to see drops in cub numbers like we are seeing in boy scouts. You are gonna attract and retain more boys with a program built and run like a Ferrari than one built and run like an Edsel, which is where we are today.

Eagle92 I'll ignore that old crack,there has been no change in this policy, but because that is the way it is done in your council does not mean it is the same nationwide. In my current lodge the youth are allowed to sit on the camping committee meetings but are not allowed to vote per the SE who stated it is against National rules, his words not mine. Second, an OA handbook is hardly a reputable source for Nationals policies regarding council committees or policies, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Barry I just gotta disagree with you, I was a Webelos leader right before and at the conversion to two years(late 80's) and there were NO LION scouts. I did the program both ways and I can tell you personally that the two year program was the death knoll for Webelos, transition to boy scouts dropped significantly and continues to do so. Two years is WAY TOO LONG for a single rank. The program now uses the Arrow of Light like an additional rank to earn in the second year, but guess what all my Web's earned the AOL in the one year program. Webelos in its current form is a joke, the LDS still use the one year program, why try to fix what wasn't broken.

I have to agree with Calico as well. Even if OA youth are invited to council camp committee meetings or council exec meetings it is as a guest not a voting member. I remember this coming up when I was at NEI 1 (DE Training) in Texas on a session about the OA the National rep said that youth officers could only be honorary members of any council committee with no voting rights. What happens on a council level though is anybodys guess.

Proud Eagle The problem is we have done away with most import tariffs which would make foreign uniforms prices be on par with US made uniforms. The unions I agree were part of the problem but not the main cause. We eliminated tariffs so we could export more of our steel, auto's, and agricultural produce overseas, but wait we no longer have a steel industry or much of either an auto or agricultual industry either. Every foreign country now has our technology and has improved it on their own so our technology industry is struggling to compete world wide. We have gone from being the strongest industrial nation in the world to a second class nation that makes very little anymore. Our high unemployment, weak dollar, loss of all of our industry has been going on for over 50 years and for some reason all our economic guru's could not forsee this happenning. This recession/depression we are in is mainly due to the government and industry greed to make the fast buck without any consideration of or planning for the future of our country. Corporate/Government greed is what has been erroding our economy for many decades now and unless this changes dramatically we can never truly recover as a nation.

To avoid repetition and boredom from setting in go back to the original concept of one school year for each rank. Making Webelos a two year program was ridiculous to begin with and has proven to be the weakest link in cub scouting. The purpose of Webelos is to introduce boys to a more mature program, more male leadership(if possible), get them somewhat involved in planning, and introduce them to skills and advancements they will develop more fully in boy scouts. Webelos is NOT supposed to make them into boy scouts. All of this can easily be accomplished in one year, two years of the same activities leads to boredom and high dropout rates, as we have been witnessing since the late 80's. After one year of Webelos the boys are still excited and eager to move into boy scouts, leaders have to stop worrying how many badges the Webelos must earn or the Arrow of Light, which by the way can be easily earned in one year with a quality program.