BadenP

Gary I appreciate your candor in defense of LDS scouting, and the detailed explanations you have been providing. However the scouting literature the LDS church produces, and which I have obtained from an LDS bookstore down the road from me, paints a very different picture, as does explanations from my LDS scouter friends. "The primary purpose of the scouting program in the LDS church is to insure that all young men obtain the Aaronic priesthood." direct quote from two long time LDS scouter friends of mine, and is similiarly stated in the LDS scout literature. On that point alone LDS scouting is NOT the same as traditional scouting. The methodology of LDS scouting is all aimed toward achieving different stages of priesthood each of which is tied to a different boy scout rank. Yes you guys go camping and teach your boys different basic scout skills, but there seems to be no development of advanced skills as the boys progress in rank, instead that has been replaced with developing skills to make them become competent ministers/missionaries for the church, which is a huge difference from traditional scouting programs. I truly wish you and LDS scouting well, however I have not seen any evidence that contradicts anything with what I have posted in this thread, and the bottom line still remains LDS scouting is definitely not the same as traditional scouting programs.

And of course there is always the age old favorite, a late night snipe hunt.

Beavah While your idea is both good and sound National will never force groups, such as the LDS, to capitulate or conform to a national standard that runs contrary to their own organizations goals and purposes. The reason, a potential loss of numbers and money and we all know what Nationals priorities are don't we. However you are correct all Eagle scouts should be receiving the exact same training and pass the exact same requirements nationwide. This is one point where I strongly agree with Kudu, the scouting program of today is truly a sadly watered down version of its original program which lasted through the end of the sixties. Personally I don't know if we can ever achieve that high standard ever again, especially with who is in control at National. I would love to see it happen though.

Gary Since you asked me to reply directly here it is, after reading your replies and some LDS scouting literature I have come to see that the LDS scouting program virtually ignores or changes the methods of scouting that interfere with the boy achieving the Aaronic priesthood. The advancement method for one especially seems to be so modified that it is NOT the same as in traditional scouting, neither is a troop program boy run but controlled totally by the adults with the entire emphasis on the priesthood over authentic learning of new scout skills, advancing in rank at their own pace, and experiencing real positions of responsibility. There seems to be an "Eagle Mill" mentality in the program and among the adults that each step toward priesthood is rewarded with the next rank, whether or not it has been legitimately earned by the boy. The saddest part of all in my OPINION is that the boys are FORCED into scouting and ADVANCED way too quickly, even if they are not ready, especially since all boys do not learn at the same time or the same way, the LDS model puts them all in the same cookie cutter mold not allowing their own individuality or gifts to be recognized and used in their own development. That is a serious disservice to the boys.

Minquin is correct almost all lodges will take your word as to prior membership. Over the last 30 years I have belonged to 3 lodges, 2 of which are gone as are their councils. All the lodge ever asked was the name of the former lodge and approximately when I belonged.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

All of this brings us back to the original question LDS scouting is not the same as traditional scouting programs the eight methods have been changed to accomodate LDS missionary preparation methods over the advancement methods set down with the BSA program. So now does this make LDS scouting different, yes it does. Does this methodology make it difficult for a non LDS member of an LDS troop to fully fit in, IMO, yes it really does. From what I have seen here and read since my first post the LDS program is no different than if a Catholic troops main goal was to make sure all the boys became priests and rank and methods of scouting became a distant secondary priority. So the question then becomes in spite of all its good intentions is LDS scouting truly scouting? Or is it a case where the CO uses an established program for its own purposes/priorities over that of the needs of the boys?

If any of you are interested on the LDS scout website that OGE referenced in his post you can read and download the LDS Scouting and Venturing Handbooks, after reading both of them the wording of the texts the focus applies entirely to stages to the Aaronic priesthood and very little about the scout ranks. There are mention of rites performed during advancement to acknowledge achieving the next step to priesthood that are not related to the scouting program. After reading these texts they seem to validate what I had been saying to Bart and Gary about the differences in LDS scouting and why a non LDS scout might have a hard time fitting into an LDS troop. Gary I wish you would take a look at this site and tell me if this is indeed standard LDS scouting or is this a splintered off group and not typical of LDS scouting. Thanks.

Gary Thank you for your explaination, and let me state for the record that I have some very good friends, for over 20 years now, who are LDS scouters or former scouters and believe me we have discussed these things in detail. Oh by the way my asst. District Chair was the stake president not the vp, a typo. As I said before I have great respect for the LDS and the care shown towards family, as well as members that are going through tough times. My personal experiences with LDS scouting, especially my week at Philmont with LDS scouting was a real eye opener to me, and in my view there just seems to be a large overemphasis on the priesthood over the "traditional" scouting program. As an outsider I know my perspective may be somewhat skewed, and I am going to order the LDS scouting handbooks to compare and see if there have been some changes over the years. At an upcoming Venturing Extravaganza for the first time ever the three LDS crews in our district have said they would be attending, so this will be a good chance to see LDS Venturing firsthand.

Gary Please don't quote me out of context as you did in your last post. So to clear up some questions for me then, 1)The main/primary purpose of the LDS scouting program is to prepare young men to achieve the Aaronic Priesthood? 2)Incorporated into the troop meetings are rituals and rites that are not scouting but recognizing a boy reaching certain stages toward priesthood and are recognized as part of their scouting advancement? 3) An LDS scout can still achieve scout ranks without attending meetings or campouts IF they are doing work for the church and the goal of priesthood? 4) Many LDS scout leaders purposely do not attend district camporees or events because they view mainstream scout units as a bad influence on their boys on their quest to achieving priesthood? Now Gary before your answers it may interest you that I had the LDS Stake VP as my district vice chairman for five years and during that time I was invited to many of these special LDS scout and nonscout ceremonies within my district. So unless you can show me that this stake was some kind of rogue group I will stand by my posts and observations and conversations with LDS scouters and church leaders.

Even though Bart denied it in the site OGE references it states specifically "there are LDS scouting handbooks(plural) that the church uses to administer their program." The little green one Bart states is nothing more than a generic framework of setting up a unit but I remember being shown a much thicker red one and another blue covered one that showed the LDS philosophy in adapting scouting as tool to "prepare young men for the priesthood." in great detail as the SOLE focus of the scouting program and I notice these books are not available to the general public. Okay I agree that if changing the focus of the scouting program to attaining the Aaronic Priesthood in the LDS Church, and the BSA allows it more power to you. However don't pretend that your LDS boy scout units are just the same as other scout units because they are not. I have been told by LDS scouts and scouters of some of the rituals that go on in their scouting meetings that really have no place in any scouting program. Bottom line, the LDS scouting movement is allowed extreme latitude, IMO, by the BSA and thats fine by me and yes, they use the BSA handbook for rank advancement and go camping, but to deny that their focus is on scouting skills is incorrect by what I have witnessed as a DE and from what I have been told by LDS scouters even today. I really wish the LDS Scouting program well, but to state that it is the same as non LDS units is just not true.

Bart That site is just an LDS book site, and I strongly suggest that you try going to some of your own church sponsored scouting weeks at Philmont as I have before you spread more misinformation, the hierarchy of your own church explained in specific detail what they wanted their scout leaders to emphasis in their troops, packs, etc. and there definitely IS a difference between LDS and standard boy scout programs. Your church leadership doesn't deny it I don't know why you and Gary do?

Gary I was as DE for five years and over 25% of my units were LDS so I became VERY familiar with the way LDS do the boy scout program. You are naive to think that LDS Boy Scouts do not use the program to prepare their boys for missionary activity at 18. It promotes the churches agenda and doctrine over the scouting skills. The LDS do publish their own scouting handbooks, which they primarily use, as well as use the BSA's and this was discussed in detail in another thread months ago. I have been invited to and attended LDS Scout Camporees, LDS week at summer camps, and I have had high ranking LDS church officials tell me what they view as the overall goal they see the BSA program in preparing their boys. While I respect the LDS church for its emphasis on family and kids, their BSA program is not the same as the average boy scout troop, which the BSA has made an allowance for, and most non LDS boys would have a difficult time fitting into an LDS troop. So rant all you want but I will take my experiences and what I was told by LDS officials over your opinion.

I still say the scout program would run a whole lot smoother if there was no religious component in it. This PC bull about accomodating one religion versus another and who would be the best leaders would not be based on emotional or spiritual reasons, rather who is the best qualified. The LDS can still have their own version of scouting, but everyone elses units would and should be open to all. In other threads we discuss it is against BSA policy to add rules and requirements to the programs, yet the religious CO's by requiring certain religious policies or doctrine be added are doing just that. In that case then we would have to have seperate scout programs for each faith tradition sponsoring a scout unit, like the LDS, and that is when scouting becomes a religious program first and foremost and the scouting program of Baden Powell becomes of secondary importance. The CO Agreement between the chartering and organization, signed each year, and the BSA states that they will use the BSA program as an outreach to the youth of its community, it does not say that the program can and will be used as an indoctrination/propaganda tool for their specific church or organization.

concerned, Sometimes it just becomes a matter of just how long you want to butt heads, turn people against you, and disrupt the troops program or decide maybe its time to look for another troop that agrees more with your own philosophy. If this was the only troop in the area then maybe you would have reason to stay and fight for your sons, and IMHO you have a valid reason, sometimes it is the more noble thing to just move on to another troop.

I think NJ is right, this seems to be an issue of poor communications and maybe a SM who is a little too anal retentive in interpreting requirements, but three years as a Tenderfoot come on now there is definitely some serious issues in this troop. On the flip side it sounds like these boys definitely need some fitness training, but to hold up a rank for one pushup is just not right. Maybe The Biggest Loser tv show could do a scout special with Mazzuca and Tico along with a group of overweight scouts working toward the Fitness MB as an inspirational training piece for all scouts and their leaders who are seriously overweight.

As was mentioned earlier 98% of the CO's I have come across really do have a hands off and uninvolved approach to the units they sponsor. When there is a problem it usually seems to involve a CO that is a church, and that's when defining the CO's rights becomes an issue. When I was a DE there was a church sponsored unit whose pastor felt that there was not enough religious emphasis in the troop, the SM was not of that faith and threatened to resign and the tensions were building in the troop leadership. The end result was a meeting of all parties and a amicable solution was worked out. My point, as long as you have churches as sponsors the question of the pastors versus the scout leaders priorities will always be an issue, and the CO will always prevail.

John As well intended you might be I think the group here has shown that you really are beating a dead horse. You can believe whatever you want to but in this case you are just plain wrong because your interpretations are way two broad and sweeping and inaccurate.

The old saying if it weren't for the adults scouting would be run a whole lot smoother, I think the same thing could be said of the religious influence in scouting, as this thread clearly illustrates.

emb021 Sorry to imply that you agreed with these changes, your last post shows me you are not too happy either by what has been going on with Venturing at National. IMHO, the way National is heading the Venturing program is in serious trouble, with a TOTAL lack of vision and direction. I truly hope Sea Scouting stays independent from this fiasco with their long history and scouting tradition. With these changes of mixing troop patrol leaders with crew officers for training purposes then Venturing becomes nothing more than an extended Venture Patrol which was not the original intent behind the creation of the program. One size fits all training does nothing more than dilute the quality of that training and the quality of the information given out since Cub,Scout,and Venturing leaders all have very program specific needs and questions. It really amazes me just how much of Mazzuca's reorganization of National and his changes in all aspects of the scouting program have been and will continue to be so detrimental to todays scouting. Too bad you can't impeach a CSE.

emb021 Aside from the title change I really do not see much of a difference between the two trainings. If the VLSC syllabus was used it is a uniform training no different from ILSC, IMO this is just more nonsense and unnecessary change for the sake of change from National that serves no real purpose. Then they wonder why Venturing doesn't get any respect, it is because those *&%$ at National have no real vision or even a basic understanding of what Venturing is supposed to be about. Kodiak is nothing more then additional leadership skills done in conjunction with a high adventure trip. Sorry to disagree with you but this is the kind of lack of direction that will lead to the eventual death of Venturing.

TN But that is the whole point, the BSA has allowed certain groups to corrupt the scout program and exclude others, we are talking about boys who just want to go camping, earn patches, and have fun and THAT is what scouting is all about. The religious control of the organization is what is bringing it down as they are now the dominant number of charter organizations since scouting was forced out of schools and public/govt. agencies.

perdidochas "Duty to God", as stated in your British scout oath is meant to be of a personal nature between the scout's own conscious and his own concept of a creator. It was never meant to be a requirement to be used for a boys suitability to become a scout. In the BSA scout law the 12th point, a scout is reverent, has been so twisted and warped out of its original context and purpose that it has become an object of religious superiority and intolerance in its application to the program. The LDS church uses this point to justify their twisting of the scouting program to prepare their boys for becoming missionaries over learning the scouting skills the program was originally set up to do. As a result many non LDS scouters have a real issue with the LDS scouting program, as seen in different threads in this forum. I have seen in many fundamentalist church sponsored troops a program that parallels the Royal Rangers more than it does the BSA focusing on church doctrine over scoutcraft. Some may state that these church CO's have the right to control the content of their units program, which may be true, but the result is those units become nothing more than a propaganda tool for that particular church instead of being trained in the scoutcraft and leadership skills that the BSA program is supposed to be about. Like Kudu is always reminding us the scout program has been watered down over the last few decades for which he blames WoodBadge, IMHO it is evergrowing control of the BSA by the "Christian " churches that has resulted in a weaker program, large drops in numbers, and an evergrowing number of untrained and undertrained leaders. The idea of "religious tolerance" in the BSA is little more than a joke, just look at any of the past threads in here concerning the Scouts Own ecumenical services at camp or in the field and you will see this intolerance firsthand.

It is threads like this one that convinces me the BSA would be much better off to take the religious part out of scouting completely. Religious intolerance is as strong today as it was 100 years ago, put the units charters back under the schools, PTA's and service clubs, etc. where they belong. It is time that the scouting program stopped being used as a conversion and propaganda tool for any denomination and back to its original purpose and mission. The BSA is not and should not ever be used as a vehicle to promote religious intolerance, and I say this as a long time scout leader and an ordained minister.

Brent You might just be surprised what Mazzuca may do, especially if he thinks it will bring in more boys, and he can convince the LDS that the local option is the way to go.

There are just too many facts missing to even attempt an answer. If the COR was present at the committee, as they should always be, and just cause was given for your removal then yes they can remove you both as the COR has that final say. I find it hard to believe that the committee acted just out of spite or malice, but too much information is missing.