BadenP

emb021 Interesting post but in all my years in scouting I have never heard in any of the councils I was/am part of the Lodge Chief being on the council exec committee or camping comittee(except in an honorary capacity)and in either case never having any voting rights. OA National and Regional youth officers may be a different story but on a local level it has always been viewed as a temporary one year position with no special privileges,special badges of office, or voting membership on any council committee. Their main function is planning out the lodge activities for that year.

Eagle92 Are you really sure of your posts, nowhere in the pub's does it state OA youth officers can wear silver loops or regional patches. As far as the council camping committee is concerned OA youth officers have only an honorary place with no voting privileges. Now the adult lodge advisor is alowed to wear the silver loops as it is a council position with an official patch, youth officers do not have the same recognition. Just wondering!

For all you overly concerned anal retentive contributors to this thread who noted the spelling error, yes the word was supposed to be spelled wussies not woosies but I caught it too late to edit the post. At least I gave those few of you an opportunity to contribute and complain all in one post, whadda bunch of wussies, lol.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Yes the necker is a useful item in scouting, however going back to basically two neckers for cubs, the yellow and the webelos makes a lot of sense and is the tradition. With the ever increasing cost of uniforms cutting down the expense is a sound move for most people. Let us not forget our new CSE's current idea in the works of Rank T-shirts and scout jeans to replace the traditional scouting uniforms,even though they cost just as much if not more, what a joke that would be, IMO.

Several new posters have recently stated that they feel attacked or put down when they ask a question in this forum. I know almost 7 years ago when I first joined this forum I kinda felt the same, but not anymore. Look, if you ask a question or offer an opinion about anything in any forum you better expect to get opposite views or detailed directions of exactly what to do to solve your problem. The trick is not to take any criticism too seriously or personally, afterall we are nothing more than a bunch of USERNAMES who have no real influence on each others lives. What we do share is a love of Scouting, that is the bond that brings us all together. With all the different experiences and styles represented in this forum the trick is to use what suggestions are useful to you and ignore the rest. Still it is human nature for certain discussions to get a little heated or too personal for some, and thats what the moderators are for, to referee. Anyway I have always enjoyed this site, gotten some great information I have used with my troop and crews which I thank the many posters on this site for, even the ones I may disagree with sometimes. Eagle83, lilizard and other new members hang in there it just gets better with time.

Stosh I think your post proves the point that Nature finds a way to reclaim an area after humans have screwed it up. Right or wrong, better or worse depends on the long term effect for future generations not just immediate results. My point is if we abandon all conservation efforts in our natural areas we are asking for trouble. Jacque Cousteau once said "If we continue to poison our oceans they and all that lives in them will die, and if our oceans die all life on earth will cease to exsist." That was over 40 years ago and I still think of it everytime I hear anyone say that conservation protection is just a fad or is unnecessary.

lilizard Even if your SE is as big an idiot as you suggest there are ways of dealing with him as many have explained to you. If enough units are really angry and get their COR's to the next council executive meeting this problem would be taken care of very quickly. It seems to me that this is more of a personal battle since no other leaders seem to be rallying to your side. If that is truly the case, which I think it is, just hold tight and in a couple of years he will be transferred to another council. In the meantime you better learn how to work with the guy or your unit will continue to have problems.

Post sent back to originator for edit. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Joe Bob You have missed the point alltogether once again. The old adage "ignorance is bliss" seems to be a fitting response to your post. I could shoot all kinds of holes in your stance but I kinda think you wouldn't be capable of understanding.

One correction Eagle 92 the IH and COR cannot be and should not be the same person, the COR and CC can be but the IH is the final authority and appoints the COR who is the intermediary between the units and the CO, otherwise you have just one person with all the authority and no one a unit leader can appeal to, it is just not kosher. Usually the council will strongly ask/require the CO to have seperate IH and COR's, at least in the five councils I have been affiliated with.

Scoutnut You can quote the book all you want but that is not the reality in the field. A CO whether they have one unit or three are given the number for all units ex, Pack 425, Troop 425, Crew 425, so the numbers are not the issue. Nothing in your post contradicts my own post, but I bet you are one of the UP's for your council, lol. Most COR's loyalty is first and foremost to their units and not the council, in spite of what your book may say.

No matter how you may feel about LNT it does serve a purpose. In my area two county and one state parks will no longer allow scouts into their wilderness areas because of all the trash left and damage done by three troops over the last year. The scouts are now only allowed in the improved campground sites. My crew is still allowed however because we, with another crew, went in and repaired all the damage we could, planted some new trees and plants, restored some habitats, etc. The Head Ranger at each park still are adamant about not allowing boy scouts into these sensitive areas feeling they are too immature and not trained properly concerning these sensitive sites. A lack of LNT training has cost the boy scouts the use of these areas permanently, this is not a question of LNT being a liberal or conservative issue it is the reality of the sensitive and fragile nature of some of our most pristine wilderness areas.

Krier is also correct because a COR can also be the CC for the unit, the only dual registered position allowed in the BSA, of which I happen to currently to be for my crew. Now technically you could say a registered COR/CC would have to have two uniform shirts one for each position and on the CC one you would have the unit number. However in my council many dual registered COR/CC only wear one uniform and do have the unit number on them rightly or wrongly, the SE has never told them to cease and desist. Many COR's I have met in my time in scouting will tell you they are part of the unit first and foremost, few consider themselves part of the council even though they have a vote at meetings.

moose It just seems to me there are way too many holes in her story. Yes there are some SE's who try to micromanage everything but not this somewhat trivial situation. Almost 100% of all tour permits are signed by the council registrar and are never even seen or discussed with the SE. If this is indeed a true story, which I am beginning to strongly doubt, the only recourse is for the COR to meet with the SE and Council President.

The more this story unfolds I think lilizard is either hiding some pertinent facts or more likely is just trolling for attention. Having been a former scouting professional and worked with a wide variety of SE's I find it hard to believe that any SE would be that petty or get that involved with one troop, they have way more important things to be concerned with on a council level. lilizard I wish you would either be more forthcoming with the truth, or give the entire story cuz what you have presented is just not logical.

lilizard "If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem!" Look, ignoring the problem will not make it go away, follow the advise of others here and get your COR involved, if other units feel the same way get their COR's involved too. If you take no action then all you are doing is committing a great disservice to your unit.

83 Scouting is still the greatest youth program around. The problem is when you get too involved in the politics of scouting on the council level and the national level it is enough to make you want to scream. IMO scouting has survived 100 years because there have been and still are enough leaders out there who say the heck with the half witted changes national/council tries to push through we are going to continue to deliver a tried and true quality program to the youth. When it really comes down to it it is not about the gays, uniforms, or even WoodBadge it is about maintaining and continuing the same standard of excellence and quality of program that Baden Powell envisioned many years ago. We can discuss/argue in this forum all of the political nonsense of the BSA we want, that's what forums like this are for, but when it comes to being in that den, pack, troop, or crew meeting with the youth it is all about them, their interests, developing their leadership skills, learning scoutcraft skills, but most important of all having a whole lot of FUN in the process.

I think this thread just goes to show and prove Kudu's argument that the boy scout program has continued to become more watered down, or "Dumb downed" using Kudu's words over time. IMHO so many current Eagle projects are not worthy to be called such, development of scoutcraft skills are becoming less and less important, leadership skill development in many senior scouts and Eagles is sorely lacking. To not even be able to build a fire, an essential survival skill, and to be able to receive the Eagle Award just shows another reason why it really doesn't carry the prestige it used to have.

LNT is very important in preserving our rapidly depleting wilderness resources like it or not. I agree with Beavah and OGE on this one 100%. Clem maybe in your troop LNT stands for "Lazy Notwilling Troop" not a good message from you to pass on to your troop, you are the leader and set the way by example good or bad.

Except for Romney the rest of your list would prove to be an economic and political disaster for the country that would take a decade or more to recover from, yes even worse than GW was.

It is not so much the card as the administration of the program and the database of information that would have to be maintained for this purpose. With the federal government having continuing problems with hackers getting into sensitive and top secret databases already I would hate to see yet another database out there with sensitive information that a hacker could easily break into.

Every district is unique in its requirements for a DE, whether they are a large urban, inner city area with large numbers or a rural area with units spaced out over wide areas and a good DE needs to know how to talk to and deal with a diverse group of people culturally, socioeconomically, academically. A DE whose professional scouting experience was in New York City may have a very difficult time in Montana or Wyoming. Knowledge of the scouting program is not enough for a DE to be successful as is the ability to understand and work with people and volunteers with very different backgrounds, priorities, and values than their own.

On the Cub level they are gone because there is a real lack of committment on the parents part to help the pack leaders deliver a solid program, pack leaders who are almost forced into the positions at recruitment nights but they lack any real committment to the program or the kids, and a written program from National that lacks any real imagination, flexibility, or interest for the boys. On the boy scout level they are gone due to too much adult control of the program instead of using the program designed by BadenPowell many troops are little more than older versions of Cubs. Unfortunately the new trainings, especially WB21C, continue to make this problem even worse. On the Venturing level they are gone because 95% of the adult leaders do not understand what the program is all about and run the crews like scout troops. The reference material,handbooks again lack any real vision or purpose or interests of older teens. IMHO Nationals recent changes to all three programs over the last decade have erroded all three programs to critical levels, the lack of parental involvement, myopic leadership from National down to the local level, a total lack of understanding of what really appeals to kids, preteens, and older teens, and a totally watered down scouting experience is what is killing off scouting today.

There are several problems with Cubs, as others have pointed out too much repetition in the early ranks, Webelos was originally a one year program and should have stayed that way. Webelos leaders need to be selected more carefully than just a warm body to fill a spot and they should be given the same training as scoutmasters. Two years of webelos would be boring to ANY kid and yet National seems oblivious to this huge loss of cubs at Web II stage of scouting. The entire cub program needs to re-evaluated and redesigned from the National down to the local levels and soon or troops will have even meager numbers of new recruits for their shrinking ranks.

ED While that may be true that was not the point of the post.