BadenP

Perdidochas Sorry but Latin was the language of ancient Rome long before the RC Church ever came into exsistence, in fact if you trace the root languages of the early church they are Aramaic and Greek, not Latin. There was no church officially called the Roman Catholic Church until after 1054 when the Roman branch of then early Christian church broke away from its eastern roots and became independent, since the patriarch of Rome felt he should be the head of the church by divine right. This created a permanent division between the church of the east and west. So Latin has nothing to do with the identity of the RC Church who adopted the language after the split for their own liturgical ritual language. In spite of what the Vatican claims the RC church does not have a direct line of apostolic succession of popes from Peter because of their schismatic split from the original eastern church which was considered as an heretical act as the protestant reformation was by the RC church hundreds of years later.

Neal Being an Eagle is not unethical, etc, but using that fact as the deciding factor in choosing one person over another is according to business ethics and hiring policies used by most companies.

OGE For your edification after consulting with his circle of advisors Benedict has decided to introduce these changes in phases, much like Vatican II changes were, rather than all at once as he really preferred. Certain prayers and responses at Mass will be said in Latin instead of English to begin with, then changes in how communion will be done,then changes in the norms of mass ritual, in the last phase of Benedicts plan he has written that the altar will be turned around as in the past and the tabernacle will be permanently housed on top of it. Many of these changes have already taken place in the more conservative churches of the east coast, midwest, and other areas of the world. Change comes slowly but change is indeed coming as most of my priest friends have told me.

Engineer My wife is an HR director for her company and she agrees with what you have been told. If there are two applicants with almost the exact same qualifications, but one lists being an Eagle Scout that can not be used as a deciding factor in choosing who gets the job, ethically, professionally, or legally. This runs true in almost all companies these days, while it may look good on a college application it has no relevance or standing in the corporate world climate of today.

Vigil Looks like the card is truly gone, if you have $65 you could always order the embroidered certificate, lol.

QC Here is my 2cents worth, start with your lodge advisor and chapter advisors and let these adults initially deal with the scoutmasters and get you times at troop meetings and roundtables to give a presentation that will attract the boys into joining or becoming more active in the lodge. You need to get together with your lodge officers and come up with a dynamic program for the year of both service and fun activities that will really make the scouts want to become active. Remember, don't plan too many activities that you are competing with troop activities. I was a the staff OA advisor as a DE and in one year the lodge went from 5 active members to over 50, all it took was some real effort and planning, and a great yearly program. It will not be easy but if you do it right and get the right people doing the right tasks you will be amazed at the result. Most of all don't be afraid to ask for help from the adult advisors, thats what they are there for. Good Luck!

UC That may be so for 2010 however National has been playing the change game with the cub program for years now, and the reason is both the adults as well as the kids are fairly new to scouting and will be more open to change. I do see a trend towards a less formal uniform in the near future for all scouting programs, and the CSE is leading the charge.

Vigil Are you sure because I just saw a credit card like OA Vigil card offered at the OA site I mentioned as well as the embroidered certificate. A friend of mine recently ordered and received that embroidered certificate and card and told me no check was made as far as he knew. Since I'm just a lowly Brotherhood member I wouldn't know about such things, lol. Are those records still kept after a lodge goes under, and for how long?

Scoutfish In your scenario the answer is quite easy, most beaches or pools have lifeguards during the summer, have the boy get a note from one of them stating what the boy was able to demonstrate, have the lifeguard sign it and date it and then the WDL can sign it off. The religious award same thing applies a note from the rabbi, priest or minister should be sufficent proof.

"A scout is clean",... clean in his personal habits. Lets be honest Smoking put plainly is a dirty, disgusting and expensive habit(addiction). Anyone working with kids on campouts or other trips and who is running off to the woods every hour to light up is doing a disservice to the kids. In the privacy of your own home is one thing but exposing your scouts to second hand smoke is quite another. Besides think of all the money you would save.

OK How about this scenario, the scout or scouters old lodge is now defunct, gone forever as is the council what do you do then? How can you he prove his claim? Or he has his OA handbook with the page filled in with the dates and places of his ordeal, brotherhood, and vigil ceremonies, is this evidence enough? Eagle92 I don't think the OA trading post even bothers to check credentials when a scouter orders the Vigil card or certificate so IMHO those items should be restricted, yet they are freely available.

UC Eagle 92 is correct, but the information has not officially come out yet. Remember uniforming is one of the methods of boy scouting NOT Cubs. This does fall inline with the Mazzuca Plan, as I like to call it, about making scouting more appealing to more boys. it also makes sense to start this off with cub scouts as a trial program. Even the new venturing green shirt looks much less uniformlike than its predecessor, no loops, less insignia. It will be interesting to see what will happen in the near future.

Eagle92 Interesting point you bring up, on the OA website in the trading post you can buy the embroidered Vigil certificate and Vigil ID card with a simple online form, all you need is a lodge name and number. If someone was that dishonest they could easily obtain these OA Vigil items with no checking being done. It is sad indeed when a person lies his way to an honor/award he never received.

Eagle92 In most councils its a lot easier than you think, my old lodge has gone on to its happy hunting ground. When I approached the lodge at the council I am in now, during a Univ. of Scouting, the lodge chief saw my old flap and asked me if I would like to join. I was signed up on the spot, paid my dues and got a new flap all within 15 minutes.

Kudu might suggest that all this contract nonsense instead of a boy led troop structure is because of WoodBadge for the 21st Century trained scoutmasters. Maybe he has a point after all.

acco I think that was what Beavah was getting at, appropriate versus shoving it in someones face, but he is capable of answering for himself. As far as WB at your troop meeting, believe me most of the kids could care less, and it seems to be a desperate cry of, Hey kids look at me and what I did! versus calling attention to what your scouts have done, it is the BOYS program after all. The adults can appreciate it much more, especially those who have gone through the same experience.

MV I am glad you are proud of your scouting accomplishments, as all scouters should be.However 14 knots x 3 seems a little excessive even by scouting uniform standards. A person should get a good idea of your accomplishments just by talking to you not by seeing how much of your uniform shirt you have covered in patches, of which the 14 knots are but a small part I am sure. As far as the silver beaver is concerned that seems to be bought more than awarded in most of my years in scouting, in four different councils, and it does usually lead to a spot on the council exec committee. The boys will admire you based on what type of leader you are and the guidance you give them not how many patches are on your uniform, the same goes for adult scouters. Still you do have the right to wear your uniform anyway you like, providing it is in BSA uniform guidelines. I wish you all the best in your scouting experience.

It will indeed be a sad day when we will have to have armed police or military police patrolling at a jamboree because of ever increasing problems with theft and vandalism. There is really no excuse for this kind of behavior. and IMHO the penalties should be severe enough to fit the crime. As a visitor with my crew for two days I saw some pretty extensive and cutthroat patch trading going on by adult scouters as well as the kids that was not in keeping with the scout law, nuff said. I am glad my crew got to see and experience some of the jamboree,especially the Venturing displays, it was quite an experience, at the same time I am glad we stayed elsewhere and got to experience the history and culture of Virginia and DC. The teens told me over and over that this was the best trip they had ever been on.

evry The problem you see in the troop has its root cause in the way National allows such advancement to be done on a local level without proper checks and balances in place before ranks and mb's are awarded. If the program was being administered and monitored properly there would be no Eagle mill or merit badge factory troops. Too many scoutmasters feel like they are omnipotent and their way is the only way. If we scouters allow advancements to be just given away and not really earned then those awards become meaningless, especially the Eagle. We wind up with a bunch of unskilled scouts who have shortcut the requirements thinking that is just fine, and grow up become scouters and carry this sad tradition to the next generation of scouts. If your son is having fun and he is earning his way legitimately then this ASM's behavior, as bad as it is, can be ignored. If your son however sees these shortcuts as the norm then as his parent trying to teach him about values and honesty then you owe it to him to find a troop who runs their program the way it is supposed to be.

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Beav Believe me I know not all priests and nuns are like my clients, many of them victims of abuse by their fellow clergy. I have several good friends who are priests and we have spirited discussions all the time about religion and we still like and respect each other. Unfortunately I have seen and experienced some of these same abuses by catholic clergy and that is why I left, not fallen away as you stated. I became an ordained minister and counselor because I felt I could help others lay people and clergy realize that there are alternatives to living with the guilt and anger they feel. The problem is the hierarchy will not admit that the problem is as deeply rooted as it is. OGE: The latin mass information was based on what my priest friends had shared with me, Vatican II changes took over 30 years to be fully incorporated in the mass, but changes are coming

Beav My prejudices, as you call them, come from years counseling priests, nuns, ex priests and ex nuns. The things I have mentioned come from my own experiences being a former Catholic for 40 years and the stories told to me by these clients in a serious crisis of faith. I would never share these experiences with scouts or anyone else for that matter. When you have any institution that has become so internally corrupt and feels they are not accountable to anyone or anything other than its own perverted desires then it is time for some accountability. This is not about Catholic theology, rather how the hierarchy from the pope down to the parish priest preach and truly believe they are above the law of humanity for their actions. It is not the religion, it is the institution that is rotten to the core. Thats a big difference from what you accuse me of Beav.

Beav Oppression of women in western society of course is very different from third world countries where a woman can be killed just for talking to a man not her husband or be dragged out and stoned to death for no reason. In western society the type of oppression the church shows towards women is a psychological and intellectual one and since you have never been a Catholic it is hard for you to understand. It amazes me in this day and age that any woman would even want to be Catholic but many do out of fear from the lies of that tradition that they are the only true religion and the only path to salvation and all other faiths are false. From your hostile attitude in your replies of late maybe you need to reflect on your own views or you can always "crawl back under the rock" you tell others to do. Maybe moosetracker is right about you after all.

Beav What Gern is getting at is that the Catholic Church does not view women as equal to men when it comes to the ordination of priests. The Church has the tradition that since Jesus only chose men as apostles women can never be ordained, the same is true in Orthodox Judaism and the catholic position is probably a carryover from that tradition. It is no secret that the Catholic faith is a male dominated and controlled tradition, and quoting scriptures out of context does not change that fact. The churches elevation of Mary to a demigod status was to help appease their female members and to attempt to make them feel as equals. Religious historians have shown the financial support of Jesus' ministry came from a number of well placed women, and that Jesus did have many women followers who are hardly mentioned in the Bible. Mary Magdalen for example which the Catholic clergy has branded and still refers to as a prostitute, even though the Bible never refers to her as such, was in fact one of these wealthy women who were part of Jesus entourage throughout his ministry. At the crucifixion the only ones there through the entire ordeal were John and three women. Yet the Catholic Church still holds onto their archaic concept to this day that women are not worthy to be ordained to the priesthood, if that is not the ultimate sign of the oppression/supression of women by the church then I don't know what is.

emb021 You are a constant source of laughs for me, when I was a DE there was no Venturing just the Explorer posts, no LFL nonsense either, and there didnt seem to be a problem then in coed posts, and YPT did not exsist either, hmmm how did scouting make it through those dark times? LOL I am very familiar with VYPT, but also deal with this issue on a daily basis, unlike yourself I wager. You missed the whole point of my post, it does not matter what a pub or online class might suggest, human nature is just that and can not be controlled by a pub or rule. My point once again for you emb, a 19 or 20 yo venturer and a 22yo assoc advisor are both legally consenting adults under the law and no BSA rule can alter that fact. You can not stop them from dating, but you can ask them to curtail their relationship during crew events and most of them will agree. Even though the rest of the crew will be aware of their relationship it will not disrupt the functioning of the crew. Time for you emb021 to pull your puritanical head out of the sand and learn how to cope with the reality of todays world.