BadenP

I agree with Eamonn that making Eagle is not the be all or end all in scouting. Scouting is all about the experiences, trips, leadership opportunities, learning new skills and making good friends. Rank advancement is a means to an end, an Eagle scout is not a better scout for example than a First Class scout. They may have different priorities or desires about what they want to get out of scouting and that is just fine. When I was a SM as soon as a boy made Star in the SM conference we would determine if getting his Eagle was something he really wanted to do, if he said yes we would create a plan of how to achieve that goal, if not then that was fine too. There were NO deathbed Eagles in my troop, all of them once they made the committment were set on the path to Eagle with a lot of support from the adult and youth leaders in the troop, their parents,and all of them completed all the requirements no later than 3-6 months before their 18th birthday. No teens feeling pressured, no parents interfering or calling the council all upset that they hadn't heard about their sons Eagle application and he was going to be 18 in less than a week. The process worked well in my old troop and they are still using it today. With all that said however, becoming an Eagle should never be the only reason a boy becomes a scout or the ultimate goal unless he really wants to put in all the hard work necessary to get there. Scouting should be FUN first and foremost, the rank is really unimportant in the greater scheme of things.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

John There is a HUGE difference between cammo clothes, navy peacoats and an official complete and current uniform of any branch of the armed forces, one is protected and one is not. I was in the military as well, received the same paperwork and you are misinterpreting your discharge paperwork concerning this matter. Cammos and BDU's alone are not considered OFFICIAL military dress. BSA restrictions were created SOLELY because National BSA did not want the public to get the idea that boy scouts were affiliated with or part of the armed services, period. So we can disagree but you are incorrect in your interpretation, talk to your local recruiter, he will set you straight in the matter.

Sorry but this looks like a real scam to me. All Sears wants to do is to build a new potential client list to drown you with countless emails and phone calls to sell you their services. Be careful not to give them too much information, and since this contest hasn't been advertised, like a nationwide company would do for the promotional publicity I think this so called contest is as bogus as a three dollar bill.

(This message has been edited by BadenP)

John What you quoted is to prevent civilians from wearing a complete uniform of any branch of the armed forces aka posing as a member of that service. It does not apply to camo pants or jackets or any surplus pieces which is not official, unless all the military insignia are attached, that the military farms out and can be readily bought at most outdoor or surplus stores. The military code applies ONLY to civilians wearing a COMPLETE OFFICIAL service uniform where they could be mistaken for or pose as military personnel.

Stosh I agree with you about impractical and costly it is to go across country to Philmont, and how "contrived" much of the BSA local training is. The problem is that many of the so called trainers are not adequately trained and just stand up there reading from a syllabus which they don't really understand, especially when you ask a question. Online training may be a convienent supplement but is NOT truly training,IMO. The problem is in many cases the training committee itself who do not go out and find experts in the fields being taught and instead try to muddle through on their own. Like it or not that is one of main reasons we have scouts continually dying on camping trips, carelessly starting fires, destroying wilderness areas by not following LNT policies, etc. So whats the solution? Clearly National hasn't got a clue since it continues to allow these substandard training methods to qualify scout leaders who are as lost as the kids in many cases. Maybe Mazzuca is right and we take the whole camping thing out of scouting. Or maybe there is a better solution and IMHO that is what we should be discussing here.

Stosh How about a training with the emphasis on developing advanced scoutcraft skills and teaching motivational techniques to others in learning to use those skills out in the field. There is nothing in the current BSA training agenda that covers that.

Moosetracker While you may have a point there are a lot of very good boy scout troops out there that do not follow the current BSA troop guidelines in their programs. Kudu and Stosh at least try to stick to the original program set up by the founder, which in all honesty has really gotten watered down over time with the emphasis on management skills vs. scouting skills. Kudu is also correct, IMO, that Bill Hillcourt did an awful lot in saving the rapidly shrinking and poorly thought out boy scout program of the 1970's by rewriting it and bringing it back to the "basics". I would much rather see scouting done Kudu's way then for example the way the LDS church has twisted the program to fit the religious needs of their faith and other faiths who have done the same thing. The boy scout program was never meant to be used as an indoctrination or propaganda tool for any religion. As Kudu, Beavah, and others here have pointed out time and time again the current BSA training set up for Boy Scout Leaders does not do an adequate job in preparing them to lead a troop and while management is a part of the process, having enough training to master the essential scoutcraft skills is and should be the priority. The format and content of current National training is just the opposite of that goal. The result is undertrained SM's and ASM's and dull programs that are losing more boys every year. National has to take a serious look at the current boy scout program and re-evaluate its effectiveness before it is too late.

Shortridge My oh my how you love to twist things around. What I said was no camp should open up before they know they are not certifiable, that is just common sense and good business policy, and the two examples I gave prove why. As a camp director and Asst camp director the council staff, camp staff and I did an in depth inspection months before we opened to make sure ALL the problems, serious and minor, we found were fixed before we opened up for business. We knew that as a result we would sail through the inspection with flying colors, which we did. No it is not an official BSA policy but any good and reputable council would do the same so the inspection will not become a major hurdle when it happens, and that was sound advice I received at National Camp School as well. Eagle 92 is correct when he says that an inspection certification is good for a year, but you DO NOT wait until next years inspection before you fix a problem that has been discovered,you know is serious and could put your certification and your campers at risk.

Shortridge Yes a camp can start before certification but I have witnessed two camps being closed in the middle of summer because they failed inspection with some serious violations, and the council's had to refund all that money to the units still coming and closed down the camps. In both cases it was deemed too expensive to bring those camps into compliance so they were sold. That is why any camp that opens and not certified ready is taking a big risk and being irresponsible to the scouts scheduled to attend. That is why your attitude is just plain illogical and undefensible.

A tshirt with the rank on it, no more patches, what an absolutely stupid idea, we all know how long the average t shirt lasts in scouting, this is nothing more than another get rich scheme by National Supply. My question is what will the boy have left to show his kids about his days in scouting, a bunch of torn and mangled, dirty tshirts, kinda makes you wonder. Stosh, when I was a DE and Mazzuca was my SE he almost never wore his field uniform to any council events, ECOH's, even council camporees as he felt it wasn't professional enough and it just didn't look good on him. I remember him coming to a Eagle court in my district and the young man asking him why he was not in uniform,since he was going to give the Eagle Pledge, he was wearing a suit, he looked at the boy and said, this is my uniform son. That is why I firmly believe that during his tenure as CSE we will see the uniform radically change or disappear alltogether.

You know I think pj and Qwasze hit the nail on the head, we give these teens POR's but in to many troops and crews they are really not given any true control or real responsibility for the program itself. In this instance I think Kudu is right, too many adults like to micromanage every aspect of the program instead of giving the control over to the teens. From what I have witnessed for years in Venturing the crews that go under in the first year or two is because the teens are not given the reins but told by the advisors what to focus on and plan. To answer the critics of Venturing, it is not the program that is at fault but many of the adult leaders, esp. former SM's, who insist on being in full control and running a crew like a troop of tenderfoot scouts. We have Kudu to remind us adults what the original intent of the Boy Scout program truly was, and to give us a unique perspective of how far away we have veered from Powell's original ideas. Teens can never learn true leadership unless they are given the chance to truly lead, this involves the initial planning, organizing each step, and seeing the end result unfold before them.

Stosh Don't sweat the small stuff, if Mazzuca gets his way the uniform of today will be replaced with a scout t-shirt and scout jeans, and it will probably cost more than the uniform does anyway. The CSE feels that the uniform is outdated and an obstacle keeping more kids from joining scouts anyway, so if he thinks it will bring in a lot more kids poof there goes the uniform.

Frank Yes it is my opinion but that same opinion says the award becomes less relevant when someone who does not work with the scouts can get an award called the SCOUT LEADER AWARD. You know what Frank maybe the BSA is wrong in this case as is your myopic viewpoint.

TN Mazzucca stated that in one of his first interviews right after being selected CSE. He has a very different vision for the future of scouting, and in my opinion it is not for the better.

Brotherhood You will have a very difficult time proving that any committee members do more for the boys then their leaders. Yes, there are a few who go way beyond their duties as a committee member and help out in the unit, however they are few in number, and we are talking here about those who function only as committee members qualifying for a Scout Leaders Award. Bottom line they ARE NOT scout leaders and should not qualify for this award, your argument doesn't hold water, sorry. Committee members do serve a very important purpose but again they are not scout leaders and should have seperate recognition.

Brotherhood What do you think Boy Scout Leaders Award means, and do you think a committee member who comes to a adult committee meeting once a month and that has no contact with boys whatsoever deserves this particular award? I don't think so, it really is a no brainer, a scout leader leads scouts which a committee member does not do, if they are hard working there should be a different award to present them. The SM and ASM, CM, WL, DL devote more of their personal blood sweat and tears to the boys than any other volunteer and should not be lumped in with those who write policy and push paper in the background. Those people do an important job but not one of being a scout leader and should receive seperate recognition.

shortridge I think we are talking semantics. A summer camp experience with a dining hall option and recreational activities ONLY I do not think should qualify as the camping experience the OA is talking about, why, because everything is being done for and planned for the boys,kinda like a primitive Club Med, not them using the skills they have learned and actually putting them to practical use. Now if he is at camp and goes on a trek for example where they pack out, cook their own meals, learn about living in the wild and pack back in that is a different story. Summer camp should be fun, but summer camp is not always "camping". As far as camp certification is concerned every reputable council camp has to be sure that before they open the summer program they have met all the certification standards ahead of time in order to insure the safety of their staff and campers, not just when they know the inspection is going to take place.

Beavah I agree with you and stand corrected. It also shows just how inadequate most BSA training is to the task at hand, and National is just making things worse with online basic, whats next online IOLS, WoodBadge, or even rank advancement? Mazzuca doesn't seem to care since in his own words,"Scouting is not about setting up tents or camping in the woods." At this rate the Girl Scouts and Campfire will get more camping experience than the Boy Scouts, ahhh the world of the future, lol.

jstephens You could be right or maybe that applies to someone who was a committee member and then switched over to ASM or SM, leaves it too open for interpretation. Still IMHO a "Scout Leader" leads the boys not administrating policies for the unit behind the scenes.

Well eagle92 in the four councils I have been associated with there has never been such a position doing any of the things you mentioned. The head medic at camp was responsible for making sure the infirmary was fully stocked and verifying the credentials of the others serving as medics. Not to say you are wrong just that I never heard of or seen such a position.

shortridge What you reference is a requirement for BSA council camps in order to get CERTIFIED before they can even hold a summer camp program, this is not the same thing as the OA camping rule. The OA rule is more for excluding things like family camping trips, or camping with some friends. Instead the camping must be within the context of a troop camping experience, demonstrating and using scoutcraft skills. Council summer camp may not even qualify if the scouts don't cook their own meals or use their scouting skills, instead just using the recreational facilities like the waterfront, ropes course, shooting range, etc.

eagle 92 There may be a POR for a physician at camp but in all my years in scouting and all the camps I have been to there has never been an MD present or on staff. The chief medical officer has always been a RN, EMT, Paramedic etc. The procedure has always been for serious illness the scout was sent to the nearest clinic, very few councils can afford to have an MD on staff or as a standby. Which is probably why all physicals must be done PRIOR to coming to camp, the camp medical staff can then determine if a person is possibly too big a risk for their level of medical expertise to handle.

I think the real problem here is semantics, are committee members really considered to be "Scout Leaders"? Their job requires no direct contact with scouts, even though some do go on camping trips with the troop that is not part of their duties as a committee member. Their function is mainly an organizational and administrative behind the scenes position. For that reason I do not feel that a committee member should be eligible fot the Scout Leaders Award, however is would be nice for them to have an award for committee members recognizing their efforts.

"but honestly just pickin up and reading the books is better than any training sessions" Beav, you either have experienced many really bad trainings or you don't get the program. There are those leaders with pre learned skills via the military, working in an outdoors position with parks, etc who bring a myriad of skills with them to scouts, but they tend to be few in number in the BSA. A guy who is an avid hunter for example may spend a good deal of time in the outdoors but his skillset may be disasterous to teach scouts about preserving the wilderness, wildlife, and LNT which he himself does not understand or practice. Your solution is simplistic at best and puts the boys in possible jeopardy.