MattR

Just as soon as trout taste bad.

3 hours ago, AltadenaCraig said:

So I've suggested to a few in our Troop Committee that we consider establishing our senior (Stage 3) patrols as Venture Crews.  G2SS allows for higher-caliber and pistol shooting in venturing, as well as activities such as search-&-rescue, etc.  The upcoming registration changes will soon allow ALL venturers - both boys & girls - to continue pursuing Eagle together, so there would be complete commonality of advancement as well.

@Sentinal, what do you think of that idea?  My biggest concern is that true Venturing suggests allowing the crews near autonomy - and while I agree that "Scout Lead" is not a license for Scouters to abdicate - can Scouters at least compel the crews to meet on the same night as the troop, and also mentor them to fulfill their "Stage 3" troop officership while also allowing them as Venture crews to pursue extreme-high-adventure activities?  Clarke Green over at Scoutmastercg.com has mentioned his troop is running along these lines.  Others?

I tried something similar a very long time ago and the results were not good. At best, there was one or two scouts that could lead before and the rest were struggling. Now the rest don't need to struggle anymore. In other words, it doesn't encourage scouts to lead.

I see the problem as the scouts do not have the correct leadership skills, because they've never really led, and therefore making it fun for them will not teach them to lead. The specific leadership skill that I'm thinking of is being prepared, i.e., making a plan. That just takes time, grit, and focus. I don't even care if the scouts follow the plan but if they have one then they have enough of an idea of what's coming next and can then work on all the other things they learn at nylt. The quality of their leadership is almost always related to how well thought out the event is. The eagle project is one example of where we force scouts to have a plan with enough detail that they can give it to someone else to run. Not that they'd ever do that but it forces the scouts to think of the sequence.

Getting back to patrol method, I'd rather see a sequence of challenges for developing leadership skills. Kind of like ranks. Start small and build it up. Planning, communication, feedback, dealing with negative scouts. All those things would help a lot. I still remember reading the scout handbook for the first time and wondering if I could get to Tenderfoot. First class was so far advanced I was afraid to even think about how bad I'd do. The outdoor skills were very well laid out. The leadership skills were/are just a mystery.

Try synonyms for scout. You could also go with a Western theme. Replace troop with tribe. Patrol with band. Pioneers. Adventurer for explorer. Vanguard for PLC. Trapper. Wolf. Bear. Buffalo. And something outlandish for the award, like the Distinguished Silver Pelt with Crossed Talons. Or just the name of a bird of prey. Silver Hawk? Something a kid could understand. 

@cocomax makes a good point. I think we should rename Patrol Method with Scout Ownership. If they want to own it then the patrol method enables them. If they don't want to own it then patrol method will not encourage leadership.

One thing that really gets in the way of ownership is what @SSScout mentioned recently about planning (something about failing to plan is a plan for failure). Planning is nitty gritty work that involves thinking of all the details. It's a grind for the scouts. Coming up with the idea is much easier than making it happen. Again, I'd rather see more support for adults to teach this skill. Leadership may be a lot more than planning but having a plan sure makes leadership easier.

17 minutes ago, Maxwell17 said:

Patrol adviser. 

Ah, thank you.

2 hours ago, Maxwell17 said:

They have a trip planed for this month that is for MB clean up and avancement.  He has asked to be the GM so he can complete 1st class but it sounds like they are concetrating on tenderfoot stuff.  I always let him take care of his communicating with his patrol and PA.  Should I speak to the PA or just let him figure it out on his own.  I don't think the PA understands how much further he is than the rest of his patrol.

It's great that your son is so enthusiastic. On the other hand, there's more to scouts than advancement. So maybe channeling that enthusiasm in a different direction might help. One thing this patrol seems to be missing is some scout leadership, PA or no. Either a patrol leader or troop guide should be running the patrol, not an adult. Since your son is so much ahead of the rest of his patrol maybe he could be part of that leadership. Or maybe he could be the assistant patrol leader to the patrol leader or troop guide. It would give him a great opportunity. It would also get the adult back to being an advisor and not the leader.

Welcome to the forum, @Maxwell17.

What's a PA?

It seems to me there's a problem when we're trying to define the meaning of words that are used to define what we're doing. Run vs lead vs led vs ....

How about this: The job of the adults is to make the boys successful, where success is described as growing towards the ideals of scouting. If the scouts are taking on more responsibility then we're doing something right. A 12 year old PL is going to have a different definition of success compared to a 17 year old PL.

I just got back from a backpacking trip with the scouts. One of the older scouts, who is 17.5, I met at a store a week ago and asked him if he'd like to go. He went, he was really a lot of help, and it was wonderful to see him help out. This same scout earned eagle when he was 14 and was a real pain in the butt. He was obnoxious and nobody really liked him as a leader but he did all the work and did a great eagle project. He kept coming by and I kept trying to get him interested but it took until last week before he took the bait. We did talk at one point and I told him how happy I was to see him. He told me he was a real butt when he was younger and apologized for that. We both agreed he had learned a lot.

I don't know where this story fits in with run vs lead vs adult vs scout but it just seems like I did the right thing.

On another topic, someone mentioned that woodbadge is based on what Bill Hillcourt set up years ago. I heard a different story. An old guy in my town went to a woodbadge class run by Hillcourt and the first thing Hillcourt did when he showed up was to tell everyone to ignore the flip charts and everything they were told. He then proceeded to focus on fun with a purpose. Each patrol made games based on skills found in various scout manuals. Then everyone played the games. That was it.

4 hours ago, DuctTape said:

The only big issue for me is the focus on advancement as the goal instead of a method.

Maybe it's too easy to blame the parents on this. If you look at advancement resources vs outdoor fun resources the focus is clearly on advancement. There are pages of requirements. Manuals for judging the advancement. Arguments all over the place regarding examples of people doing things wrong. Then look at how to put on a fun, outdoor program and there isn't nearly as much. You don't even need to buy anything to keep it organized like the back of the scout handbook, no requirements to learn planning, no levels of learning how to make a skill into a fun activity. Unlike passing first aid or cooking, where there are levels and ranks to work up through, the fun things are just alluded too. Maybe that's why new parents with little experience move towards advancement, it's all laid out for them.

@Saltface and @Chris1, I sent you a PM.

Welcome to the forum! And thanks for the enthusiasm.

Holy Tintinnabulation, Batman!

Good news on the grandson and your good health.

This is what I printed from their instructions. I must admit, the one they emailed to me is identical except that it has an expiration date. Guess what? my.scouting.org has bugs in it! Who would have thought?

22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Remember when YPT was suppose to be one time only? I do.

I printed off the certificate and it clearly says "does NOT expire."

Welcome to the forum, @ncscouterz.

Welcome to the forum @mac266

Considering the 9 times I've take the previous versions every other year, it was kind of a sleeper.

Just to clarify what Jameson76 said.

2 hours ago, EagleMomnDad2Be said:

Question: Does he have 6 months from July to plan and execute his Eagle Project?

No, his eagle project is independent of the 6 months. He can take as long as he wants, as long as it's done before his 18th birthday.

2 hours ago, EagleMomnDad2Be said:

Follow-up Question: Is he eligible to receive his Eagle Scout Award in January if all Life rank requirements are met?

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. He could complete all of his Eagle requirements in the 6 month minimum except for the last one, which is the board of review. BTW, that one does not need to be completed before his 18th birthday but it does need to be before 3 months after his 18th birthday. The reason for the 3 months is because it can take a month to set it all up and 3 is plenty of overhead. So, to answer your question, probably no.

Welcome to the forum, @MsAinGH.

9 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

@MattR are you going to talk to your DE about your feelings and let him know you're feeling micromanaged?  You should!  Get him off your back.

Everybody is conditional.  

Now I can understand that if people spend more time complaining than Scouting, that's a problem.  But if people want to do Scouting, then get Scouting!   Do the parts you like to do and don't stress over the rest of it! 

Turns out the SE took care of it for me. The entire council staff had a sit down. Apparently the volunteers are important customers. Things have improved dramatically in the past week. Thanks for asking.

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

It’s worse than that, the quality of the average unit program is directly related to the quality of training. 

True, a few units can ignore training because their adult staff is sufficiently skilled, but adult turnover eventually catches up to where the unit is relying on the training for their program. 

Barry

This is what I wish the BSA would focus on. I'd rather see them bet the farm on better training. If there's something that will increase membership it will be helping scouters, parents, and the community better understand the program. Axe and GPS skills are important but just understanding the basics is also important. The current model the BSA uses for training is based on the assumption that there are plenty of adults with plenty of outdoor and scouting experience. i.e., all they need to do is go over some BSA specific safety issues and they're good to run a program. Come up with a training program that solves this problem and make an issue of Scouter magazine about that.

@qwazse has suggested ranks for adults and why not? Why not put parents in their own patrols to teach them about patrol method? I wonder if the whole push on family scouting isn't about the lack of skills that many adults have. I happen to think it's a half baked idea but there is something to think about. If the patrol method was working and patrols were independent then the adults could learn at the same time as the scouts and stay out of their way. For those that really don't want to camp put them in their own patrol. Make it official so every parent sees that what the PL is supposed to do and those troops that don't have PLs might just change.

Welcome to the forum, @DaBear-c5-324-15

Hi @Jishusa, welcome to the forum.

While I'm not so sure about having the OA scouts decide that a scout must wait a month to try again, the idea of getting feedback from them is a very good idea.

I've had scouts tell me, after an election went a completely different way then I thought, that a scout was very different when no adults were around. The best judge of a scout is the other scouts. They know who is lazy, who is a friend to the loner kid, who is selfish, who doesn't mind cleaning, who can be goofy and serious at the right times, ....

I'd like to hear what other scouts have to say about a scout as much or more than what a scout has to say about himself. That said, the SM still should make the final call on this.

I like your idea, @qwazse. We were talking about how to get some parents to help out more and I suggested putting them in a patrol and teach them the patrol method (nod to @Eagledad). Not only that but they'd start having some fun and might see scouts differently. I always told people that one really great thing about scouts is you can do something with your son, it's not just standing on the sideline or in the audience.

As to the rest of this thread, let's at least get back to the topic of the BSA betting on girls. I don't think it will have a huge impact on numbers, based on what I've seen in other parts of the world. I also don't think BSA is "betting the farm." Once this plays out I hope there is a consensus that it's time to start looking elsewhere about what will help. If the only thing holding scouts together is the knowledge of a bunch of old guys then that is the problem the BSA should work on. Once they can put a dent in that we can relax and just enjoy watching the camp fire.

13 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

I am unfamiliar with the Unit Commissioner position and I don't see anyone with that title under our unit leadership within Scoutlander.

it's not a troop position so you wouldn't see it. The UC is supplied by the district. He/she is a volunteer with usually a lot of experience. If you can't find it on the district web page then look for the District Commissioner, who can help you. If you can't find that title then look for the council commissioner or the district chair, either of which should be able to help you find a commissioner.

I think this is the way to go, if you can find someone with experience and has a level personality. It's someone not tied to one side or the other and also with experience. I'd think that maybe if the SM realized you'd be gone for a few months then it's time to make an exception.

Anyway, this whole situation is a shame and I'm sorry to hear things like this. It sounds like the SM is usually a good guy so maybe there's an echo chamber that just needs to be broken up.

2 hours ago, gblotter said:

 I remind those still working toward Eagle that real activity in the troop is requirement #1, and I challenge them to attend at least one campout a year (not setting a high bar). But that counsel never seems to translate to actual campout attendance. I have also urged their Patrol Leader to organize their own separate patrol campouts, to no avail.

This is a point of frustration (for more than just our troop). 

I don't understand why participation can't be a requirement. Imagine the soccer player that only plays one game a season. Scouts is about doing so why not let the SM make a requirement? If it's too harsh then the scouts can go elsewhere. As long as it's consistent I'd be okay with it. I always told the scouts if they don't like the campouts then let's talk about it so they can do something about it. But it's easier to just not do anything.

Getting back to the aims of scouting, I'm not sure how scouting can have much impact if the scouts are never around. Without the activities the aims are just a bunch of empty words. If the scouts can't make one campout a year then what's the point? Sounds to me like they just want that last patch. The cynic in me sees the point as sending $33 to national every year. Which brings up another point. My council chucked friends of scouting and now just requires $200/scout/year. So we've taken a few scouts off the roster. Five scouts that don't participate costs our troop $1000 a year. We can't make participation a requirement to advance but we will remove scouts from our troop if they don't participate. It doesn't really sound right but that's where we're at.

I'll try and stop being a cynic now.