MattR

@Sablanck, but tomahawks can be used (with the correct certification.) It's still a sharp object that you can throw.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Setting the example of the Oath and Law in actions is a lot hard than most scouters people from the start of time realize.

Humility always bites me in the butt when least expected.

A long time ago I read a book about some famous Buddhist and he talked about beginner's mind, where one is both unsure and willing to jump in and try. This was in contrast to those that had been around for a long time and knew all the answers. It just seems to apply to this thread.

Is the quality of a camporee any different than the quality of a troop? Doesn't it depend on how it's run?

I'm the district camping chair and the key seems to be to keep mixing it up. It also has to be relatively inexpensive and work with 200+ scouts. This is a lot harder than figuring it out once and then getting into a rut. All of the bad stories that have been mentioned seem to stem from people looking for a quick easy plan, and that means doing what has already been done before. Advancement is super easy to plan.

But doesn't every single troop have the same problem?  It takes imagination to come up with a new program and that's a fine balance between crazy and diving down into the details to guess how it will play out. There's a lot of massaging required to take an off the wall idea and make it work for hundreds of people. To be honest I don't see many people, scouts or adults, that are willing to take the time to come up with fun ideas. There are some and when I find someone that wants to run with an idea I give them whatever they want. But the vast majority of people want easy, simple, and what's been done before.

Back in 2002 we had the OA running camporees and it was horrible. It was the worst type of advancement possible because the scouts were running it and that's all they knew. After that someone from my troop said he could make it more fun and he just took over. Things got much better. There is never advancement just for the sake of advancement. There are always events that involve outdoor skills. And yet, at one point a few years ago while I was SM I asked my troop and they said they weren't interested because "they just sat waiting around to do the next 10 minute event." A year ago I volunteered to run the camporees and I made a few changes. First of all I started asking scouts for ideas (this is where zombies came from). Next, I made sure we had enough throughput to handle all the patrols so there are no lines. It's simple math but it took some time to get it across to people. Next I added patrol vs patrol competition. I also push for events that last between a half hour and an hour. The schedule is also flexible. While all the scouts participate in the morning, in the afternoon some would rather hang out at their campsites and some want to do every last event. It's up to them. We also put the patrol competition as the last event, around 3pm. It tends to tie the day up nicely. The scouts also get super into the competitions. I don't think they'd like to do it all day but an hour seems to work well. Lots of intensity.

Next fall we're going to have a cardboard canoe event. I'd like to figure out how to do a simulated disaster with a steam punk theme (UFO crash site, old West, semaphore for communication). Another idea is create a framework and ask for troops to take on creating an event based on certain criteria. I just want to force some scouts to see that imagination can be fun. It also takes imagination to solve problems, so it's a good skill to have. It's also really fun when it works and I see a bunch of scouts and adults having fun.

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

We also want to commissioners to be on the alert for scouts sputtering crackers while saying "Zombie Snowpocalypse" 10x fast.

... Somebody needs to get that video!!!!

Ya know, it sounds like an event. I wanted to have a hot chocolate station. This would be a fun thing to add to it and we could video it and put the best clips on the council website.

I'd say let them camp wherever they want. Don't try and solve problems that don't exist or try and follow rules that aren't clear. The best approach to solving all sorts of camporee problems is to make the camporee fun. Scouts will put up with all sorts of things if they're having fun.

Our next camporee's theme is Zombie Snowpocalypse. We will probably give extra points for anyone that can pronounce it, 10 times quickly, while eating a cracker, and maybe hanging upside down.

Could be that you don't have to fill out taxes but the rest of it's correct.

Who is your CO? Assuming it's a church and that church has a kids group, would you expect them to have their own EIN number? That's the exact situation your troop is in. Unless you don't have a CO, use the CO's EIN number.

We have to raise $200/scout. Good news is popcorn goes against that and they won't ask us to make a donation.

You should be using your Chartered Organization's EIN number, as your troop is likely not it's own entity. It is also not part of the BSA. It is part of the CO and that's why you use their number. If you create your own EIN number then you'll have to fill out taxes every year as well. And get your own insurance....

3 minutes ago, PACAN said:

In reality you will likely get no support from anyone up the chain to revoke membership up to and including national even if the scout is arrested, lies to the police, his parents and his EBOR.  He will still be given his rank. 

My reality is that the scout in my troop that brought weed to summer camp eventually had his membership revoked.

On the other hand, self centered and obnoxious scouts can eventually get their rank as well and the SM technically has little say in the matter. I understand that's the way it is but I'm not happy with it. We go on and on about the scout oath and law but they don't hold much weight when push comes to shove. I also understand it's sometimes a hard decision but that's what character is all about.

What's interesting is I asked what troops do that works and I didn't get a lot of response to that. I'm certainly not denigrating anyone. It just looks like everyone is in the same boat. Everyone uses an ad-hoc approach. We have a couple of meetings where we talk about how the troop runs and we have a section on this type of material but I'm not sure how effective it is. It's probably due to the person talking about it.

3 hours ago, Saltface said:

I can't find anything about it in the G2SS.

Then it's okay.

I found a reference to a venturing fencing competition dated 2008. I also found a Master at Arms MB that used fencing for one of the requirements. That MB was one of the original 14. However, it was cancelled a year later.

Hi everyone, this is a reminder that this thread was about goofy cubmasters and has morphed into a whether religion has a place in scouts. Let's get back to legislating over goofy (kind of ironic, don't you think?). If you'd like I can split this thread but we've beaten the subject of religion in scouts to death plenty of times and nobody has changed their minds.

I personally like goofy cubmasters. At that age it's what scouts react to. It is about the scouts, after all. People who think that eight year olds want to sit in a serious discussion about ethics the whole time are not looking at it from the scout's view. Sure, ethics has a place, but even in the scout program the scoutmaster minute is called that for a reason. It's not the scoutmaster sermon. Scouting is fun with a purpose. Fun for a cub scout is being goofy.

@Scoutmaster Teddy, maybe it will help if I share some stories. I was in a very similar situation. Do a search on "Eagle and weed." It was not fun. The question of whether the scout learned was the only thing I was looking for. The answer was no, just as you've seen.

Another story: at one point I had both sons of the council president in my troop and both of them just didn't get it. I told the oldest if he didn't change his attitude I wouldn't sign his application. That created a fuss. The good news is he did change his attitude and the scout's dad thanked me. Standing up for what you believe in is the right thing to do.

It's possible you'll get fired. More likely you'll be looking for a new CC. The question is not what the CC thinks, as he's the parent of the scout in trouble, the question is what do the other parents and scouts in the troop think? It could be that you're fired and everyone goes with you to start a new troop. It's not just about this one scout. It's also about the message that everyone else sees.

Yes, it sucks. But that's why you get paid the big bucks

@qwazse, I've seen this presentation, it doesn't cover what's important. It doesn't talk about the change from adult to boy led. The challenges of doing as your PL asks you to do. Failure as a tool. Having to solve some people problems on your own. Eating burnt food because the cook is learning to cook. Adults not jumping in and saving the day. How the parent can best help their scout with frustrations. This is how the calendar is created and how your scout can influence it. Conflict happens, this is how your scout resolves it. This is the boundary between the scouts and the adults.

The training I've seen doesn't really cover this. We've mentioned how the patrol method is now one paragraph in the SM handbook.

@Tom243, welcome to the forum. Since your troop has already done cold weather camping, how about a bike camping experience? Those are more fun than cold for cold's sake. Lots of snow is also fun. The whole point of 9b is to get the scout to try different things that are all fun. So I'd say unless your part of Kentucky is boringly flat (like most of Arizona) and dangerous for biking (Arizona during snow bird season) and is arid (like Arizona), I'd say use this as a good opportunity to get your scouts to try something else. And if they have already done these things, great! Send them to a snowier place for a high adventure weekend.

@Saltface, my apologies

@Eagle94-A1's and @CodyMiller351's threads and a recent conversation with a really great cub master begs the question: What are good ways to teach new parents, both prospective and those that have already joined, what scouts is about? It's not just let the boys lead but that we're not a paramilitary group (and all the other bad ideas out there). I realize there's the intro to scouting training but clearly that doesn't work. Aims and Methods could be a good start but The Right Way to Fail might also help.

What do people do that works really well?

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The core adults know why I actually left, and not the polite reason I am giving everyone, which is indeed true, but not the complete reason.

Did we get the complete reason?

Honestly, good job.

3 hours ago, CodyMiller351 said:

The only reason I am not the official Scoutmaster is because I am only 19.  

That changes my understanding. First of all, a big round of applause for taking this on. Second, getting Grandpaw to help with this guy is a good idea. And any other adults. Third, officially you're an adult but the scouts are going to see you as one of them. That's a big plus. Use this to your advantage. You love backpacking and these scouts are looking up to you. So go backpacking. It doesn't all have to be long hikes. And some campouts that require all food to be cooked in dutch ovens will make for a fun break. As long as you look out for them and throw some fun things in the mix go ahead and challenge them.

Something else you might not realize but now is a really important time to start looking for webelos bridging over. If you could get 4 more scouts in February that would be awesome. I have no idea what's going on with the pack that was at your chartering organization. Anyway, it would be great to develop a relationship with a pack or two. Talk to your scouts about how important this is and see if you can get them to help with some dens. Be Den Chiefs. Invite them camping with you. Den leaders are burned out by now so reaching out to them will be greatly appreciated.

One thing about being the SM is having a vision of what the troop is about. Sharing that with everyone helps keep everyone on the same page and also is a great way to sell your troop to packs. Ask Grandpaw to help with this. We can also help.

I don't know who the SM is but he needs to get on top of this now. There are all sorts of red flags going off in my mind. Inappropriate games (we have a fairly strict policy about phone usage). "I'll never let my son fail." Ignoring everyone else. Whining about stuff. This is not a list of problems, this is one problem. This is an adult that doesn't get it and never has. He is not a team player. This is a mess and the only way it will be resolved is to start by saying this is the way we do things and if you don't like it then you can not go on campouts with us anymore. I realize this sounds harsh but I've been in this situation before. Finding him another job will not solve this problem.

The first time it happens everyone is looking at each other with a quizzical look on their face. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Don't get fooled twice.

Now, it might be that the situation I was in was dealing with a much worse personality but at a minimum this guy needs some hard, simple boundaries set (you do not instruct any scout on anything, you do not buy any food). Certainly if I were you I'd sit down with him and explain to him how the scouts do things and what the adults are not allowed to do. It would be great if it worked but don't be surprised if it doesn't. I spent a couple of months dealing with such a person. He finally went to another troop and that poor SM had to deal with him until finally the Council put his son in lone scouts. I felt sorry for the boy, he was a reasonable kid.

I agree, @fred8033, that too formal is a problem, but too informal is also a problem. There is a sweet spot. When I see an entire patrol working on the same task, for every task, then it really all gets dumped on the PL because all he's doing is herding cats. It reminds me of swarm ball when 6 year olds play soccer. Everyone goes for the ball and nobody thinks about getting open to receive a pass. Consequently everyone is tripping over each other.

As you say it depends on the task. The PL's job is formal because it really is a long term job. The grubmaster's job is one campout plus a few weeks prior. He's the leader for that task, he owns it, is responsible, and when it's done it can go to someone else. The scout responsible for making a fire has that job for an hour or two. He doesn't need a patch but during his job he does have authority to get people to help.

Respecting that authority, or being obedient, is a reason for just a bit of formality. Lots of new scouts will just ignore any scout because they've only had to listen to adults before. Eventually they learn they have to listen to their PL but they keep arguing with other scouts in their patrol. It gets back to team work. A lot of scouts have never really seen that before and it's hard. Especially those without siblings but that's another thread. That's why I promote the idea of giving everyone a job, even if it only lasts an hour.

4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I see a scribe as something of a historical role.  Now that communication is so easy, having someone dedicated to it is probably less important.

Yes, but, why is it that the scouts have such a hard time communicating?

It may be easy to actually send the words but someone has to figure out what the words are, the best time to send them, respond to questions, etc. What are the salient points in the PLC meeting that need to be sent out? To be honest I see very few scouts that can do this. I don't see many adults that can do this. We have a secretary at our committee meetings. Scribe is just a title, communication is the task.

I could see a forum for just starting any unit.

Forgot one idea: Be Prepared. In other words, have a plan, an idea, enough to keep things going even if things change.

@Eagle94-A1, this is what I'm trying to solve. It's not just the SM/SPL, it could be scouts from another patrol walking in and disturbing an activity. The scouts don't understand that interruptions need to be dealt with. They just go with it, lose all sense of time and don't realize what's happening. They really do own their destiny.

And what does the PL lean on when the SPL/SM/some random adult comes up to a couple of his guys and tells them to come with him, he needs them to do something for him?

Nowhere does it say the patrol should be making the decisions. I suspect this wasn't an issue 50 years ago.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

But, if you're not Danish, or riveting, seriously consider your audience and do what needs to done to get in their heads. Be the meme they'll post to their friends. If you want it to be in large print, you have about two words for each point.

Lead: with enthusiasm

Do: Adventure/Advancement/Skills/Fun

Live: the Oath and Law

Use: servant leadership

Own: your patrol's destiny