MattR

@ramanous , the most important one for me is whether the older scouts are looking out for the younger scouts. If the younger scouts don't look up to the older scouts then the troop will develop all sorts of problems from lack of participation, young SPLs that struggle while older scouts stay home, a lack of team work and just a real self centered attitude.

The term scout led really is too vague. What most adults think of scout led is scouts making plans. But leadership, good leadership, is all the little things like including the shy scouts and encouraging those that are struggling.  It's the essence of the Scout Law.

Once in place, this will feed itself as the younger scouts look up to the older scouts and eventually become those older scouts that give back to the new younger scouts.. However, getting it in place is hard because teenagers can get very self centered when given a chance. Tending this process was the most important and challenging problem for me as an SM.

Good luck.

@Maboot38 , you seem to recognize a problem and aren't willing, or more likely, know how to deal with it. You have an adult that is driving off scouts. This has nothing to do with titles. This is a people problem. Something needs to change, which you recognize. The options are he backs off on his own or you back him off. You're the SM. He's messing up your program. You have a vision of how this should work (and it sounds good from what you've implied) and he's hindering that. You need to decide whether the time it will take to change him is worth it. If so, great. If not, he needs to go.

Your question shouldn't be about titles and what the rules allow. Instead, it should be about how to confront this guy in as scout-like a manner as possible. There are no rules on how to do that, just experience having worked with people problems before.

Good luck.

On 12/12/2023 at 4:15 PM, Jameson76 said:

As usual, main focus will be raising money.  No mention in the article about growing the program and expanding the membership.

I'm hoping you're wrong. Last night I found out our council has only 2400 youth registered. Our district, ten years ago, was larger than this. We used to have a pack in every elementary school (15 or 20?). We're down to 3 or 4. I think the packs are done folding but the troops are in serious decline at the moment. Our troop, which has always been considered strong compared to neighboring troops, is in serious trouble while 2 other troops have folded. If it weren't for a half dozen adults in our troop that no longer have kids in the troop, ours would fold.

The common thread in all of this is a lack of parents that want to put time into helping out. I used to think that no matter how messed up national was, scouting would do fine because people want it. I'm not so sure anymore. It looks to me like parents don't believe in scouting.

I still think scouting is important but I don't know how to convince people of that. The Forbes article mentioned contacting a million scouting alumni. While the cynical view is they're only asking for money, it could also be they're asking for help getting the message out.

55 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Soros' group and the US Justice System

Soros is to blame for the downfall of the BSA? That's a new one.

I think I'm done here. This is a waste of my time.

4 hours ago, SSScout said:

Make the decision, go ahead....

Sure, but something about being prepared keeps poking the back of my gray matter. I have noticed that nay sayers jump out of the woodwork whenever a new idea is proposed. Understanding how, for example, the UK does this could help.

@Eagle94-A1, while a lot of us have bad stories, your council is the worst. Just to balance things out a bit, don't forget all the threads we see here about bad scout leaders. I once asked why we didn't have a commisioner and the answer was that we had one of the best troops and they trusted us and they had much bigger issues with out of control drama, drinking, etc in other units. @5thGenTexan 's troop is probably not too far from typical.

Anyway, these are the things that we have to work around. None of the issues with a bad council are nearly as bad to a unit's program as not having parents help out or kids show up. I can ignore the council, I can't ignore that parents are stretched thin and have a lot of reasons that they can't camp with us. If I had enough adult help then I wouldn't need council for anything other than what the registrar does, and that's not much.

So, the real question is how to find and teach more adults to help out and also make their help fun, right for them and not overwhelming. Overwhelming comes from not having enough help to spread the load so it's really about getting enough adults to be part of the program, in whatever way they can. Someone could take all the photos we have once a year and make a slide show for a COH. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Anyone that likes the outdoors can learn how to stay warm in cold weather, and I bet they'd have fun with us on campouts. Do this with enough parents and suddenly we'll be back to having most of the troop show up at campouts. Then we can get back to patrol method.

One thing I've wondered about is combining units the way UK scouts does into groups. Two packs and a troop could share a lot of resources and continuity from pack to troop. This could all be done without any help from the council.

Welcome to the forum,  @TimMiller.

It's a great camp. At least for the past 10 years the volunteers taking care of the cabin ask for donations of money or material be given directly to them so they actually get it.

Anyway, we ran our summer camp there this year. It's great. I think the council now takes care of the $99 payments. I forget the name of the guy that likely took over from Holm, but he was the best council exec I've seen.

@welcome to the forum,  @Prime00.

My suggestion is ask your scouts what they want to do and give them some options to get away from this troop. Find another troop, start a troop so they can get eagle, ... This situation is toxic.

Wow, the scouts run afoul of a bird sanctuary. So much irony to choose from.

Looking at it from the other side I'm not surprised. They don't have the numbers so, rather than adjust their budget they charge CITs. Summer camp itself is already North of $450.

This is why we put on our own summer camp. And the price was very close to $100 per scout and adults paid nothing. That has its own cost, in time, but it was fun.

We rarely have cell service in the mountains. If you have service you're either on a peak or, possibly, at a trailhead. I'm glad they figured it out. Also glad the other hikers came by.

A GPS that can mark a point seems like a useful idea. Does all trails allow you to mark a point?

Also there are GPSes with emergency satellite communications. We rent them when we go rafting because the canyons are not only far from signals but far from people.

Every. Single. House. Project.

2 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

Thousands needed medical attention, many or most of whom would not have needed medical care if the event had be properly planned.

Yes, it's miserable but they got to go home. Nobody got caught in the hurricane.

2 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

I heard a report of one fatality from the British contingent, though with an event this size a fatality is always a possibility.

All I found was that 23 people across all of S Korea died due to heat. The scouts did okay. Going to the hospital for dehydration or eating bad food is not fun and a lot of scouts are angry at someone, but that's not the same as trauma. Money can be replaced.

I'm not saying all was fun and good. Certainly there are 40000 upset people. I feel sorry for them but this won't get fixed until a lot more is understood. There are a lot of events that led to this mess. The S Korea scouting organization is only one part of it. Something tells me that a month ago a lot of other people knew there was a problem and nothing was done about it. Were there any sort of intermediate check points that had to be met? They said they'd put in trees. That idea could have been checked 6 months ago. The food and toilets could also have been checked. Was there ever a plan B? Was there ever any sort of check that this was a good site to have that many people in August? Apparently not. In other words, the proposal was nothing more than a sales brochure - promise whatever is needed to win the event. Who's fault is that? Certainly S Korea is partly to blame but they were just playing by the rules. What about WOSM? It might be that WOSM doesn't have the budget to oversee such a big project. That's fine. Just make it smaller, or smaller and more often, or just pick one or two sites on each continent and rotate through them, or whatever. But unless people dig into what went wrong this will happen again, and next time it might be something faster moving than a hurricane.

Does anyone know the actual cost of a scout going to the jamboree? I did see that there are 4 different levels - the US and Europe pay the most, poorer countries pay less. I know US scouts paid $6100 but that includes taxes to national, the council and travel.

I suspect that much like the Olympics, the WSJ is put on at a loss. I'm honestly not surprised with all the problems. This is a huge undertaking and when the BSA is looked up to as being able, of course the S Korea scout association is in over their heads. It takes time to grow trees! I suspect WOSM is just as guilty (who signed off on the we will grow trees idea?) They asked for inexpensive and they got it. And the prices went up in the meantime. Also, nobody wants to pay for a sewer system for 40000 people that will only be used for 2 weeks. Or a hospital system, or dining, or .... And S Korea couldn't say no.

Bottom line, nobody got hurt.

We had a DE, who still works for the council, that is the exception. He could have been a great SM. Very optimistic in spite of serious problems with the CE, put the units first and figured everything else would take care of itself.

He's the exception because all the rest were either incompetent, quit in frustration or were pushed out.

But back to the board. A board that doesn't fulfill its job combined with a hiring model that filters out the best and then only hires from within is why I will never expect the kind of leadership that could turn this program around.

Didn't you quit?

Welcome to the forum, @Charlie49 .

I think you have the record for reviving an old thread. Well done.

Anyway, what's the range of dates of the magazines?

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

medical 5000-10000 patients in medical daily. predicted was about 500.

I thought there were 40000 participants?

All of these numbers are insane. I went to a mini jamboree when I was a scout. There were scouts from all over Europe (where it was located) and bits and pieces of Asia. I don't think there was more than a thousand scouts, but it was really fun. Maybe one jamboree every 6 months and limit it to 5000?

Wasn't there a post about all the menus everyone could choose from? 600 calories a day? Maybe I eat too much.

Oh, and did anyone notice that the UK scouts paid 2/3 of the US scouts. Ain't nobody getting a refund.

I do feel sorry for all of the scouts.

We do a police line to pick up trash but we never threaten anyone. We've never needed to. The worst threat is that the spl walks behind the line and if any garbage is missed then they start over, up to a few times (and that number is unknown to the scouts.)

As for punishment on campouts it goes as follows: the scouts try to deal with the problem scout (that takes care of most of it). Next, the spl will tell the SM that a scout is not following the scout law and a discussion ensues about what to do. If the spl says take the trouble maker home then that's what we do. The funny thing is the scouts see this and they all decide to figure out how to solve the problem. We've never actually driven anyone home. Well, except for the scout smoking weed on a campout but that's another story.

As for the safety of the scouts, don't be a martyr. What you can do is tell the other parents what you saw and that you're leaving the troop. Let them decide what's right for their kids. Some of them may want to join you in whatever activity you find. Who knows, they may want to start a troop.

Best of luck. I really hope you can find a better activity for your son. Whether it's scouts or something else, it doesn't matter.

Heat exhaustion at 93F is most likely from ignoring all the advice to drink enough fluids. It could also be from getting the wrong advice about salty foods and not getting enough electrolytes. It could also be not recognizing the symptoms. In the summer. If a scout starts complaining about having an upset stomach it's a huge red flag to get them out of the heat, sipping water and either eating salty stuff or drinking something with electrolytes. It takes a few hours before they start feeling better but the good news is they typically learn a lesson. Some kids don't like to drink water and they learn it's not a bad thing. In all honesty, 80 scouts out of many thousands is not a surprise to me. Our camp, with  250-300 scouts per week, would have one or two a day dealing with dehydration.

Welcome to the forum, @OscarS

Nobody got hurt, so this falls under the category of a good story. Not sure about the keel, though. Or the captain's pride.

7 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I DO NOT like conflict, so I probably havent done what I should do to try to correct the problem.  I am not really sure as CC how much I can get into what the SM does and how the program is run. 

Only the masochistic like conflict. Firing people sucks.

Technically, the SM reports to the CC. You don't want to micromanage the SM but there's nothing wrong with finding another.

13 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I kinda feel like me and a couple of others are all that stands in the way of that. 

Oh, so you're not alone. Tell us about these others. Can any of them be SM? Are any of them used to big changes? From work or elsewhere?

Honestly, all the things you've been talking about lead to one problem - the troop culture. And that only changes with real leadership. That means very little conflict. If someone, and it doesn't have to be you, can sit down with the SM and say the troop culture has to change, this is generally what it needs to move towards, I see your strengths as ..., are you interested, do you want to talk, or, do you want to step down?

People that are good managers can do this. It's not about why the SM is doing a lousy job, it's about what the troop culture is going to be. Ideally the SM can decide that he wants a change (either a change in how things are done or he steps down).

You have a bunch of good ideas. What you need now are people that can help you turn those ideas into reality. If you don't want to have a tough talk with the SM but someone else says, sure I can do that, then use their strengths. If you find someone that likes your ideas, likes camping with the scouts but is unsure about being an SM, then just keep talking up your vision until they see that maybe they would do okay as SM.

It's not about conflict, it's about relentless optimism. Something will work, you just keep trying until you find it.

On 7/25/2023 at 10:31 AM, RememberSchiff said:

 

@MattR , this fella at Jambo appears to agree with you.

 

Source:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CvFxJIMp81b/

I looked at his name tag ... I don't know what to say.

@fred8033 , maybe your wife's book group could run the troop? Just joking, but ... would they?

I agree with you mostly. I encourage scouts to find the few fun requirements in any MB, that actually involve doing something, and making a meeting or campout out of those. Leave the describe, discuss, explain requirements for those scouts that want it. It doesn't always work but it gets them thinking about challenging activities.

@5thGenTexan , I have to ask, why are you still in that troop? Uniforms, meetings, campouts; it seems that everything is a wreck. You have good ideas and you're ignored. It seems to me that you aren't finding any joy in this. Is your son finding any joy in the troop? That's the only thing I can think of that's keeping you there.

I ask because I get frustrated as well. And then out of nowhere things come together, magic blooms, the scouts and adults do great and I decide I can keep at it.