LauraT7

thanks for the WB - i missed you guys! had a problem with my antivirus program - for some reason it doesn't like this site and I can't get in with it on - go figure! so I shut it off when I'm here and i get to visit with you all again! on those "Action packers", any idea who makes them? i've tried Rubbermaid and Suncast websites and can't find them. Suncast makes something similar - it might work - kind of a tough plastic garden caddy for the patio - about $70 - k-mart sells it. We need to do something, our patrol boxes are a disaster - but can't get everyone to make up their minds. - some want to go back-pack light - some want full size boxes with legs - but they are way too heavy - esp for the younger boys. so we're still brainstorming.

Wow! I'm surprised, too, that troops 'take off' in the summer! around here, CUB PACKS will stop meeting for the summer, but will still have activities,to get their quality unit award. Most Troops may have a reduced meeting schedule, but they do still meet and activities INCREASE once school is out. In our troop, we meet year round, the first Monday of the month is PLC and committee meeting, and we meet all the other Mondays. We even meet on monday holidays - although the meetings tend to be low-key on those mondays. Our troop traditionally does something that i think PROMOTES attendance and activity in the summer. Instead of meeting at our CO church - we reserve a shelter in the city park every Monday. troop t's are the 'uniform' of choice, many of the boys can ride their bikes to the meeting, and are often there early or stay late, for a pick-up ball game - or they come from a dip in the city pool - which is on the grounds of this park. our summer meetings center around teaching the younger boys advancement skills, planning for outings and we often try new cooking technics and recepies. We have something, sometime multiple things, going on every weekend. Service projects, 5 eagle projects this summer, A new scout patrol to get up to speed, some special trips, two different summer camps in July(about 2/3 of our boys are attending both camps)community events and fundraisers - and then day trips for badge and advancement work as needed. At least one campout each month for the whole troop - and we are promoting (for the first time) patrol campouts, too. And we're a small troop, too - 28 boys. But we usually get a high turnout for most activities, 25 or more! Looks like a FUN, busy summer! laura T

i have looked at plans for alot of chuck boxes - but last weekend we saw a troop with what looked like rubbermaid ( or another brand) small cabinets on wheels. i want to say they were either gray or green w/ red - plastic - about 3-4' high, looked like two doors on the front? kinda like a deck box. has anyone seen these? know who makes them / where to get them? are they really expensive? I'm thinking that these may be easier to keep clean than the wooden ones, and lighter, too. Wood is SO heavy. Any idea where these are from? laura

Just a note to say "THANK YOU" to all the scouters who have the patience to work with boys like my son. These boys can get SO MUCH benefit out of the scouting program - if given the chance. On a recent outing with a new scout parent, (who was frustrated with the behavior of two of our boys - one of which was my son) I had to again try to explain the difference between ADD /learning disabled kids and 'normal' kids who "just need discipline and consequences" to this parent. Like many whose kids have no social/emotional dificulties - he just wasn't buying it. Funny thing is - his boy has physical difficulties, and has not attended many activities (small for his age, Athsma, allergies and heart trouble) for which the troop has tried to make any number of accomodations to help the boy advance. hopefully, as Dad gets more involved with the troop, his eyes will open, as yours have, to the fact that Each and every boy is special, and needs to advance in his own fashion - whatever it may be. To all you dedicated Scouters - Thanks Again!

nldscout's idea makes ALOT of sense - you might ask the price on the whole assembly from all the different suppliers, with a BSA discount. Not only will you get a better price, but you will have spares for future repairs! We sent a tent to Johnson for a replacement zipper, they were extremely helpful, fast and inexpensive. they gave us a scout discount, and shipping was speeded up because I used a (personal) credit card for payment. We also have a spare set of poles, and a tent repair kit (zipper tabs, stake loops, patches and eyelets) from them very reasonably. I would recomend them highly. lauraT

Recently our troop planned a trip to do some whitewater rafting. Although i am the Activities Coordinator - another leader took care of all the arrangements as he had done the trip before. As the trip came closer, and we arranged to do the swimm tests of the new recruits to qualify them for the trip - some other safety issues came up - like - we thought that the trip was guided by professionals, but it turns out the outfitters just gave yuou a raft, equipment and a map. many of our new boys did not pass their BSA swim test, and with no guides and not sure of the 'whitewater training' required by Safety afloat - we decided to limit the rafting to the Venture patrol (who we knew had river canoeing experience, all had their Swimming & canoeing badges and most had their lifesaving badge) We let the Venture patrol and two experienced leaders'scope out' the trip for a possible repeat later on for the whole troop. trick is - we can't find out where to get this 'whitewater training' "(a)for unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics instructor or qualified whitewater specialist." "©except for whitewater and powerboat as noted above, either a minimum of 3 hrs training and supervised practice or meeting the requirements for "basic handling tests" is required for all float trips or open water excursions unsing unpowered craft." We figured the merit badges the Venture patrol earned(all Star rank and above - swimming, lifesaving, first aide, canoeing, rowing, sailing)qualified them for "©" -but this 'whitewater training' - no one could tell us where to get anyone 'trained' - except maybe at camp with the waterfront director? any other ideas of where to get the training? Or what qualifies? Laura

only two leaders - one who only attended as a 15 yr old scout on a previous trip - I'd be a little leary of sending a group off with ONLY them. there are a number of scout camps and places that will send you with experienced GUIDES for a nominal fee - you might want to check with Napawon, and some other scout camps that do trips. Our troop attends Canoecopia each year in Madison, WI - a great resource for canoeing info, equipment, outfitters and locations - maybe they could help you with information to set up a trip. http://www.canoecopia.com/canoecopia/ it is sponsored by rutabaga - here's their site: http://www.paddlers.com/ I found some GREAT resources there - if you are still shopping for actual places to go - let me know, I can e-mail you some of the info. LauraT

Things to send in the CARE packages - anything he would not like to "waste" his OWN money on, or things that might not be available at Philmont - batteries, film, disposable /waterproof cameras? soap, laundry soap, a roll of quarters for the laundry? sunscreen? bug spray? a bandana later on when he's lost/worn out his? snacks that 'keep' when sealed - chips, those tuna/chicken salad mixes that don't have to be refrigerated (if he likes them), peanut butter and crackers, anything "home baked", or a local treat or delicacy from your home town? a phone card to call home, a new music tape or book, one of those battery operated fans? wrap them up in the "funnies" from home - the comics page somewhere else are different - but be assured - he will find the pop SOMEWHERE and get it himself (even if he never has any clean socks!)! LOL! I was never at Boy Scout camp but I did spend many years as a camp counselor in girl scout camps. as far as food and sleeping - that he has to learn himself - it's the only way it gets thru. Advice? *PEOPLE and PERSONALITIES are the biggest challenge in almost any job. Accept people's good qualities and let their bad ones slide - unless it puts someone in danger or becomes a major difficulty. *When in slightest doubt - keep quiet and LISTEN and OBSERVE before making any decisions or commitments. *ACT cheerful even when he doesn't feel like it - and sometimes by acting cheerful you can change your own attitude. * Every job has grunt work. Any part of the job he DOESN'T like - do it quickly, pleasantly and move on. It isn't gonna go away, so get it over with and move on to the fun stuff. * HAVE FUN! enjoy his summer and keep a sense of humor - happiness is contagious, and it comes back ten-fold! If HE's happy, the boys he works with will be happy, his boss will be happy - and so on. i hope he has a great time! LauraT

Good Post KoreaScouter! I would say our troop is a car camping troop - with leanings toward a backpacking troop. Our troop's history says it is/was a "high adventure" troop - and this "reputation" is hard to live down - especially when they did their 'high adventure' NOT under BSA guidelines, and only recruited boys from other troops for these trips - they didn't TRAIN boys for the trips. Now we are trying to teach the older boys to teach the new recruits how to camp, plan, etc. And we still have some adults who think the "only" way should always be light backpacking, leave-no-trace, no frills camping. When most of the younger boys can barely heft their school packs, how can they haul a 30-40lb pack on their back? and what motivates them to WANT to? I just don't see that as appealing to the 11 and 12 yr olds who have only been "camping" in their parents camper!?! At that age, most of them are not interested in "personal challenge" or testing themselves, or increasing their stamina - they just want to get out and explore without mom and dad! Once they learn some camping skills, and the involvement (and WORK) of setting up and taking down camp has started to wear off, THEN they start to see the benefit of paring down and traveling light. but roughing it too soon often takes the romance out of camping and just makes it miserable. they aren't prepared - and only practice and experience camping can make them be prepared. i see value in learning many kinds of camping appropriate to the situation. and yes, camporees can seem like multifamily housing in a field, or those family campgrounds with campers with A/C and TV's, patio lights and beer - but they also promote comraderie between units, exposure to new ideas, and the oppportunity to make new friends. Variety is GOOD! lauraT

A classic example, Eamonn, of something taking on a life of it's own and obscuring the original purpose. We ran into a similar thing with a daycare renting rooms in our church - and then complaining about the sunday school invading "their" space, church posters, crosses and Jesus pictures on the walls. Luckily we had a firm pastor and grounds committee that pointed out that they should never forget the purpose of the building was to glorify God - not the daycare. in a nutshell, that is the problem - as long as the purpose of the fundraising benefits the BOYS for things that THEY truly want to do (not stuff the adults want FOR them) then it's OK. If it gets to the point where the fundraising becomes the only program, or the boys are getting burned out in fundraising projects and not seeing tangible benefits from it (new equipment, trips, activities, training) then it's too much. Laura T

KWC - we did that last winter - at least the shelter part - the boys created their own shelter out of tarps and whatever they could find. In teaching "leave no trace' however, meals were on cookstoves and no campfires were allowed, and no cutting of trees or brush. It was a great outing, the boys loved it. Except for one thing. In winter camping, with NO CAMPFIRE - the only way to keep warm once the sun goes down is to get in your shelter and sleeping bag. it made for a LOONNNGGG winter night - going to bed about 7 pm! LOL! the boys were up with the sun in the morning! If we were to do it again on a WINTER campout - I would suggest having a fire for entertainment purposes, at least. If it hadn't been so bitingly cold and windy (-10 or so) we would have done some star hikes; we had brought a telescope - but it was overcast, damp and windy.

"In all cases, while their funds were not against the rules, there was a lot of in-fighting in those units over control of the funds as well as philosophical debate over what the unit should pay for and what the parents should pay for and what the Scouts should pay for. " having just come through two years of such infighting, to the point where it hurt the boys and the troop (which has a 80+ yr history) to the point of almost dissolving the troop - I can tell you - that scene AIN'T pretty! We lost friends, reputation and boys in that squabble - and in the end, came out a stronger and better troop - but it took alot of time and energy away from the BOYS. Our situation came from a small group that wanted to hold funds for the purchase of a new bus, and our treasurer was the leader of this faction - we had over $8,000 sitting in a fund which most of the committee was not aware existed, and yet we were told that the troop did not have funds to replace tents, rusty cooking gear, or to buy paddles and life jackets for the canoes we owned. We had done a number of good fundraisers, and yet the boys were paying $30 or more for each 1 night campout. If a boy applied for a campership - the help came from the council, not from the troop. Only 1/2 of the troop popcorn money went into the boys accounts - and we only sold once a year - few raised enough to make a dent in their summer camp fee. with the changes in the troop - we are now working on a budget - which is tough from the poor records that were kept. We are also putting ALL popcorn money into boys accounts (because it is tracked so easily) and some other fundraisers are going to boys accounts as well. We will have specific fundraisers for specific goals - such as our upcoming JLT carwash to sponsor the boys attending JLT. the whole troop is supporting the boys that attend. if they raise enough, the boys attending will not have to pay ANYTHING for their training. if they are short - they will divide the shortage equally, if they are over - it will be noted and saved for next years' JLT camp. We have a lucrative annual fundraiser that brings in anywhere from $3000 to $7000 - a portion will be allocated to the accounts of the boys that work - by the hours they work, and the remainder will go into the general fund for repairs, equipment, licenses, etc. We have some community opportunities that are fun as well as fundraising - working the snow-cone booth at the fair - those will be allocated to boy accounts or special use as needed. But we will not be doing 'grab at anything' fundraising again! we got burned out a year ago trying any fundraiser that came our way - what a waste of effort! and most did not raise much! lauraT

In Girl scouts, we did a "solo" wilderness test for a patch at camp - but were were to camp on our own - cooking meals, too - and complete a service project of some kind - mine was marking a trail with plant identification signs - which meant more equipment than just sleeping gear. I seem to remember making a pine bough bed and having a tarp over me - not a tent, though. We were allowed to talk - IF we happened to see someone - but few did actually see anyone in the 24 hours alone. so what ARE the boys allowed to take on an ordeal? and what about us oldtimers? if I sleep on the ground, someone is going to have to carry me out, as my back would be too stiff to get out of the sleeping bag the next morning. i may not talk - but you sure would hear alot of moaning & groaning! OUCH! lauraT

file Topic replies time - Pages dsteele 55 12:23:42 PM Chippewa29 1 11:43:18 AM leonus 6 11:43:02 AM When I get on the bullitine board, this is all I see - the topisc are gone and i can't open any threads. for some reason, i CAN start a new thread - but once I post it, I doubt I'll be able to get back into it again. I have asked Scouter for a reply a few weeeks ago - but no response. I asked again today. anybody know why this is happening? please reply by e-mail. as I won't be able to get in here to post. hope you are all fine - as i haven't been able to "see" you for quite awhile now! lauraT7 tlaurat7@hotmail.com

I must be really odd. I LOVED my Girl Scout uniform, and wore it with Pride. I had a kind of reverse-coolness thing going on with scouting as a kid - because I could never hope to be 'cool' in school - the acheivements I earned in scouting meant that much more to me. But I, too, wanted to drop scouts in Jr high. I had too much homework, switching schools was tough, my friends went to another school, and my parents put me in confirmation. I felt I had too many things going on,too much pressure and felt lost. My mom let me drop out - as long as I kept an 'at large' status. (kind of like a 'lone scout' in BSA) that way I could still go to camp if I wanted (I did). After about a year, we found a GS troop whose meetings didn't conflict with confirmation, and I started going to their activities - eventually I joined their troop. My son has wanted to quit, too - but I told him he had to participate in SOMETHING. if he quit Scouts - he had to take up a sport, or music or something else to expand his horizons. He couldn't just sit home in front of the idiot box. like most boys he figured scouting had to be better than piano lessons! LOL! It doesn't take much to sway him toward scouting - I don't really have to 'convince' him - I just have a very strong belief that scouting is the next best thing to sliced bread. And I LIVE my beliefs. Example is the best teacher. As for the uniform - he has commented more than once to me about liking the looks and respect he gets from adults when we go to the grocery store and he has his uniform on. Kids? well, some are impressed, some don't care. But he's never gotten teased about it though. I think our example, though, points up what is missing in the retention of boys in scouting - PARENTS. yes, coolness, sports and the troop program all have something to do with the loss of boys - and I would personally agree that "program" is the biggest of those three - If a kid is truly having a great time, and has one or two buddies to share that fun with - they can easily shed the nerdy image. But then why do Girl Scouts, 4H and Church youth groups also loose alot of membership at that age? Kids at that age are struggling with ALOT of changes - mostly changes in independance and identity. They want to make their own decisions, they fight authority, and yet they want direction and security of structure. But the problem I see - is the PARENTS. No matter how much a kid is bombarded by peer pressure - at the age of 11 - 13, their PARENTS are still their strongest influence. Seriously - take a look at your troops - and I bet your 'best' scouts have parents who are active & supportive of the troop. they aren't just 'drop and run' parents. There's also a male image thing that starts to come over boys and dads when the boys get into jr high. the child is no longer a 'baby' and becomes less involved with Mom things and more involved with Dad stuff. Often, Dads can finally really 'relate' to their sons, as they are now more capable of things that interest Dad and they can do more together without Mom flustering over her "baby'. Now I know I'm probably gonna take alot of flack for this - especially as most (male) scouters I know are NOT that way. Most people involved in scouting are and have ALWAYS been very responsive to their kids at any age. Scout families also place a higher value on the character building, community, teamwork and variety of exploration that Scouting offers, than on the public recognition and competition of, say - football. but the vast majority of people want instant recognition, they want their boys to be recognised in school and in sports - because that is what their neighbors notice. how many local headlines scream 'Troop awards 6 Life Scout ranks!" vs. "Woodstock Beats Mchenry 6 -1!" ?????? The PARENTS are not understanding what scouting can do for them and their boys. If they DO want scouting for their boys - they expect to drop them off at "practice" - and cheer from the sidelines at games (and the parents don't get to see scouting successes as often - usually only boring COH's). Most parents can't 'coach' their boys in knot tying and knife handling skills ( unless they were avid scouts) - but almost any Dad can toss a football or teach a kid to throw a fastball. See what I'm getting at? we DO need to advertise and build our program. But we need to aim at the PARENTS, as well as the kids. We need to do a better job at the CUB level of bridging to Boy Scouts - that will get the kids in the door. There are few kids who truly CHOOSE to be in scouting or soccer, or band. Given a true choice - most of them would stay home and play playstation! It's their parent's support, among other things, that reinforces their decision to stay a part of an activity. Even choosing the troop they join - is more often influenced by the PARENTS choice - even if it's by abstaining from choosing and following the crowd in the pack. anyway - that's my $.02 worth. lauraT

Couldn't you just get a couple of those tracking posters from the catalogue? or maybe one for each level of scouting for the pack? Webelos, wolf, bear, tiger.... Then when the boys crossed over, you wouldn't have to pull out just a few of the boys from the list - the whole list would have moved on.

Only if the boy applied for a campership. Then the troop would pitch in - the amount differed - depending on need, participation in the troop, the amount of the troop treasury, and the number of boys asking for help. the troop will often provide uniform parts from the uniform bank, 2-3 free new camp/troop t-shirts, and other needed equipment as we can come up with it our council policy is to pay for HALF of the cost of camp for a boy; the boy, his family and troop are expected to come up with the other half through the troop, fundraisers or their own funds. This has become a problem in our troop (which we are addressing) because our committee chose to only fund the boys accounts with 1/6th of their popcorn sales. We only sell popcorn in the fall, and it is not a large fundraiser for us as there azre ALOT of troop in our area and alot of competition. Therefore, the majority of our boys did not raise enough funds through popcorn alone to pay for one CAMPOUT, much less all of summer camp! This is especially tough for families that have been hit by unemployment, low incomes and more than one boy in the troop. the troop has changed it's policy, the tight fisted adults are out, and the committee is earmarking more fundraisers and funds to go directly into the boy accounts for activities and camp. This is a GOOD thing - as with the 8 new scouts we crossed over - we now have 4 sets of brothers! it remains to be seen exactly how these changes will be implemented and how we will determine what percentage of funds earned are credited to the boys. somehow, we want to base it on their efforts and fundraising participation. Any suggestions on how your troop determines who get what from a fundraiser? lauraT

Cool thing is that we have found out that we have the USS Cobia ALL TO OURSELVES! this means that we can quarter the men in one area, the women in another and the boys in the larger Crew Quarters. We will have the adults take shifts, and will have 2 adults awake and with the boys all night (per Cobia rules) but not sleeping in their area. I haven't got an answer yet on how many cubs will be coming, but their leader has told them to plan on one adult/ one child. We've got some openings, Sparkie - Do you and your son wanna come? now my next question is; do we have to file a different trip permit with the council if we take the cubs along?

Our boy scout troop is going to overnight on a WWII submarine in a few weeks. It's a maritime museum, lock-in kind of thing, not a campout, per se - it' run totally by the museum and they do it for all kinds of kids groups. it turns out that there are lots of open berths on the sub, and we thought it would be great to invite some webelos to go along with us. If we do, what are the requirements in terms of adult / child ratio for Webelos? Are webelos still required to have 1 parent / 1 child like cubs? or can there be less? We need to figure this out right away and get the message out, as we have to have our name list to the museum by the end of next week. thanks! Laura

Hi! sounds like you have some good ideas going - the only thing i would add is to take advantage of any events and activities offered by your district or council - as their larger size might be able to offer you activities, training and resources that are tough to do with just a handfull of boys and their familes. Network with other troops - especially other small troops at summer camp and at camporees, etc. often if you both want to do something like a caving trip, or canoe trip, BOTH troops can get a better deal if they combine to get more guys on the trip. We had a small troop for awhile, too. When ever we have an activity that has a minimum number requirement to participate, we fill the spot with troop members FIRST - but then pass the word around and invite younger brothers, cub packs, another troop or friends to go along and fill out the spaces. It builds friendships with other troops and recruits cubs and non-scouts into our troop.

We are blessed with not only a strong charter org and it's staff and facilities, but it's continued support by the same church congregation since pre- 1911 - when our "troop" started it's own scouting movement and joined BSA National as soon as it became available in our area. Our Charter rep has been active in scouting for over 30 years, and the minister of the church takes her interest and responsibility to the troop very seriously. We can never say enough "thank yous" to the Methodist church in general, for it's long support of scouting, and to First United Methodist of Woodstock, IL , our CO - in particular.

here's a good one I'm recommending to our troop - as my son and I are also involved in working with Golden retreiver breed rescue and re-homing - the search and rescue, bomb and drug sniffing dogs and handlers are dear to our hearts. MOST of these dogs come from shelters and rescues and are retrained for their jobs in the police, fire, rescue service and military. http://operationmilitarypride.org/packages.html the above link can provide you with info to send care packages for a dog / handler team. how cool is that?

I had talked to one of the managers of the MSN group (AFTER I impulsively invited all of you SCOUTER.COM people to join us) and they are thrilled to have additional voices on their board and to see the chat room being used. They feel the two boards complement each other, as MSN has chat capabilities that Scouter doesn't and Scouter has resources they can't hope to match! the Tuesday night is arbitrary - just a mutual night we picked - but it can be any night. If you want to find someone "live" though, on another nite - a few suggestions - post on BOTH boards ahead of time when you expect to be there - and hang out for awhile. you can open more than one window and keep the chat room "open" until someone shows up, while surfing in the other window while you wait - sometimes it takes awhile for people to drift in. Keep time zones in mind, when choosing a time to meet I'm gonna miss next tues chat - as we're leving on spring break, but will be back the following week - happy Scouting!

IMHO feeder packs should NOT exist. The Complacent attitude promoted by "feeder pack" mentality is a big factor in losing so many boys at the Webelos to scout transition year. It may be convenient for a CO to sponsor both a pack and a troop, and if they work well together and a large group of boys move up into that troop each year, than that's fine. IF the boys are happy,(and I judge that by if a majority STAY in scouting) and IF the troop and pack don't put limitations on the boys - such as giving them the idea they are expected to go into that troop automatically. You will always get kids and parents that 'go with the flow' and follow their friend or popular choice in making these decisions. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the Pack AND the TROOP to give the boys every opportunity to make an informed choice. Troops should make an effort to invite packs and do things to involve cubs & webelos - and packs should encourage the dens to participate in more than the minimum requirement of 1 BS meeting and 1 BS activity to complete their AOL. The intent of that requirement is to GIVE the boys a choice, and too many take it as the LIMIT of interaction - not a minimum START. We have 5 troops and 5 packs in our 10m radius town limits. 4 sets are with the same CO. Our CO does not have a pack, and a local catholic church does not have a troop. A few years ago our council stirred things up by finally adhering with a BSA rule that in the past they ignored - not allowing Webelos to attend BS Klondike. This threw the pack and troops into a tizzy. Now they had to think up events that the webelos could attend, and most didn't have clue how to do that! our troop came up with a quarterly plan for an activity each quarter that we could invite not only 5th grade webelos to - but also some events that were appropriate for 4th grade and younger cubs. Our intent was to create an ongoing series of events that the packs could depend on for AOL and for program highlights - to BUILD RELATIONSHIPS with the packs. I am proud to say that in the last two years, before our "plan" was implemented, we only got 1 new boy a year. this year we have 7 SO FAR! from 3 different packs! (seeing as we only had 20 boys - 7 is a tremendous boon!) you said in you post that "Some people want the boys to pick the best Troop that has the most to offer." Well, that is the RIGHT idea - and if the "troop" doesn't like that, then maybe it will teach them to get off their hands and DO something about it! lauraT

The problem I have with most fundraisers that sell items is twofold - first, as someone pointed out, most sales are inspired by friendship, guilt, charity, whatever - but the person buying the item is being solicited, they aren't looking for that item. (IE - I am HOOKED on GS thin mints cookies and will search out a scout to buy them from, because you can't get them in stores at any price) second, for the charity involved, the profit margin on the item is usually not worth the effort expended by the boys or parents that manage it. You could get alot more "bang for the buck" in other ways. however, BSA handicaps scouting fundraising by not allowing us to wear uniforms for any fundraiser OTHER than popcorn. I can understand when it comes to selling physical products or brand names that scouting may not want to be affiliated with. But why on earth do they limit the uniform for things like car washes, bowl-a-thons, etc? Personally, I prefer those sorts of fundraisers - For a Car wash, usually soap is the only "cost", water is donated by the business that sponsors it, rags, hoses & buckets come from the boys and their parents. When someone drives in for a car wash, they REALLY NEED a car wash; they usually get a better job for the cost than they would at an automated wash, and 100% of the money goes directly to the boys who do the work. theirs no "i buy yours, you buy mine", guilt, no begging, just a real straightforward business transaction with good feelings for all, good will for the business and money for the boys. which, then, is the better lesson? Popcorn? or the car wash?