LauraT7

how about a weekend canoe trip on the Wisconsin River? We just got back from an AWESOME weekend of canoeing and camping out on the sandbars on the lower Wisconsin River. We slept under the stars, with a moon so bright it actually kept us awake! We floated, paddled and swam in the river, explored lots of islands, ate sand-crunchy food and got sunburned a little - it was GREAT!

Scoutmom - I would agree with Fat old Guy - don't deny yourself the fun of doing scout stuff WITH your son. If he likes his new-found independance - that's GREAT! You don't have to go on every trip or participate in everything - but I don't know any troops that couldn't use another adult somewhere, sometime. Our troop just got back from an AWESOME canoe trip weekend - and in order to make it happen, we had to pull from some adults that usually don't participate in campouts. One was a Mom like you - had been very active in Cubs, and was still real active in her daughter's Girl Scout Troop - but her son "liked his independance" in boy scouts. her son's been in for 3 yrs - he's the same grade as my son - and while I'm sure he DOES like his 'freedom' of being away from Mom and Dad on campouts - in this case, if she had not benn able to come, NO ONE would have gone. As it was, she had a great time, and her son really enjoyed having her along. Now she doesn't have to come along ALL the time; but once in awhile is nice for both of them. She got to see how he does on campouts, he got to show off his skills for Mom, the other boys and leaders really enjoyed her company - it was a great deal all around.

believe it or not - they now have Red Cross first aid, CPR and Lifeguarding courses ONLINE! - of course, for the lifeguarding course, you have to make and appointment somewhere to go for the practical test, but all the paperwork can be done at home. i just got my CPR online - there are even online courses that will send you a practice dummy as part of the course to use at home! Here's some links, if anyone is interested - http://www.aquatictraining.com/lifeguard.cfm http://www.cprtoday.com/course_cost_h.php

I know this has been asked before - but this time I'm putting in a poll Our troop has always done 1 night campouts. Right or wrong - that is what they have done - and because of that, it usually takes our boys about 3 (or more) yrs to accumulate enough nights of camping to qualify for their camping badge. partly because of the above - and partly because my son and I (and some other boys) just like longer campouts - we have successfully lobbied for more 2 nighters in our troop and gotten them. With the new standard of 2-night campouts - the new boys should be able to attend most events, miss a few, and still get the 20 nights about the time he's hitting 2nd class or first class. But under the old plan - we have boys of Star and even Life rank who have not gotten that many nights of camping - some who have even gone to 4-6 weeks of summer camp (we've done 2 wks of camp the last 2 yrs), yet their TROOP CAMPING is only 14, 17, 18 nights. But the problem I'm having is that I am a badge counselor for Camping - for some Odd reason - the ONLY one registered in our troop. (you'd think ALL our ASM's would qualify to be badge counselors for Camping MB, wouldn't you????) Anyway, I have been asked whether family camping nights count, and I am inclined to count them, as we do have families that family camp, and I know the boys would be expected to carry responsibilities on these 'family' trips. Many of our families are avid bikers, canoeists and backpackers. The thing is, I don't want to establish a precident whereby a future little scout's mom wants him given credit for 20 nights of camping in the family camper before he finishes his tenderfoot rank. I would be tempted to require at least a portion of the camping be done WITH the troop - But as a counselor, I am not supposed to add or subtract from the requirements. Still, the badge itself does not say the camping has to be done within the framework of scouting - the only reference to scouting is that you can only use 1 week of 'long term' camp; it doesn't even say it has to be done WHILE A SCOUT - it just says: (Req 9A) "Show experience in camping by doing the following: Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights.(You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the sky or under a tent you have pitched. " it goes on to specify some options you must cover on some of those 20 nights of camping - which some of our families do for fun on their campouts. so what is YOUR opinion?

ADDer's tend to be an unusual lot. there are a few similarities - distractability, high mental or physical energy, a 'different' (often gifted) way of thinking, thoughts that 'jump' around, disorganization, fidgety, sometimes clumsy, often perceptive. Do i talk too much? yes! that's another ADD trait. but each ADDer is uniquely 'different'. My son was diagnosed in 2nd grade - in retrospect, the signs were there from infancy. We tried behavioral modifications, but eventually went to medication for him. i didn't see why I should force him to struggle when there was help in medication? As an ADD parent of an ADD/ gifted child - one thing I REALLY know - you never truly know, even in yourself, what is the ADD and what is simply YOUR personality. they are almost inseperable - which make ADD hard to diagnose for sure. ADD and personality traits are so closely tied - Am I disorganized because of my ADD? or am I disorganized because, as my family tells me, I just 'don't care'? is my son really lazy? or just unmotivated? why are other people able to easly accomplish things that i can't seem to complete? Why do some things seem so much HARDER for us, and no effort for others? Medication making a difference in the behavior is sometimes a METHOD of diagnosing it for sure. If medication make a change - then it's a chemical imbalance that can be corrected. If Medication doesn't affect it - then it's not chemical. ( then there are other things - depression, learning disabilities, being gifted that also affect the diagnoses - how do you separate THEM?) I recognised it in myself when he was diagnosed - Girls didn't 'have' ADHD in the 60's. They didn't recognised that you could be ADD without hyperactivity until I was an adult. But again - the signs were all there in retrospect. I was a textbook case. Still, I had learned coping behaviors - I kept copious notes (which i lost), kept multiple datebooks (which i had everywhere) lived by post it notes - and my computer was (IS) a Godsend (I CAN'T lose this thing - it's too big!) I have multiple keys to everything and all kinds of 'habits' to keep my life together. bills are on auto pay, things in my house are structured for sight- organization. (if it's put away, it might as well be gone - out of sight- out of mind) I have family that is extrememly supporting and organized - I'm still buried in paper - but I get by - mostly. I coped, without meds - for years - but everything was ever so much more effort than it seems to be for you normal people. Eventually, the effort of maintaining everything wore me out and some things happened in my life where my 'coping mechanisms' were no longer 'enough' for me to make it in the 'normie' world - i was sliding behind and could not catch up. So i went for formal diagnosis and started taking medication myself. yet, because ADD IS a chemical imbalance - your brain can have differing levels of the necessary chemical at any given time. And there is no way (like an insulin test) to tell how much additional 'chemical' you need at a given point. so we 'stab' at it - pick a dose, give it at regular intervals, and stay at whatever works - meanwhile, the brain is still up and down in it's own production of the chemicals - so you STILL have ups and downs of ADD behavior - only, hopefully, not as EXTREME, because there is a 'baseline' of chemical production provided by the drug. yes, in 'normal' people - the drugs can be stimulants, recreational drugs, dangerous - but the chemical composition of an ADD brain makes them as harmless to an ADDer as any other medicinal drug. (that's not to say they are harmless - only that like any drug - the risks must be weighed against the outcome for the individual patient) Medication helps tremendously. I am NOT high, or strung out, i don't feel any different than i did before - except - when I think of something - I can grab the thought and DO something about it before the thought is gone. I still use all my 'coping mechanisms' - but they work better because i am more consistant. My mind is not such a whirlwind - or rather - it still IS - but I can control and use it better. Kind of like putting a steering wheel and brake on a kid's coaster car. When I take my Adderal i can start things and finish them - and sometimes i still CHOOSE not to finish things. but I CHOOSE - my ADD doesn't choose for me. Sometimes I don't take my meds, and I have a lazy - do-nothing day. but sometimes, i DESERVE a lazy do-nothing day. sometimes i have alot to accomplish, and alot on my mind and i really, really need to concentrate on something - and even the meds don't help. For example - I had to go downtown to test for a job last week - the test was on a computer and it was VERY slow from screen to screen - the test itself was easy for me, so i was completeing the test quickly - but the lag time between screens was so distractingly dull, that when the questions finally popped up each time, I found myself daydreaming and drifting off - I had to read them 2-3 times to 'get' them - Medication can only partially affect a situation like this - At least I completed and passed the test!) Because most ADDers have SOME of the appropriate chemicals in their brains - at different times and different amounts - in some situations, they don't NEED the additional drugs. Behavioral habits can be learned to cope with situations so that the behavior isn't a problem to the ADDer or to the people around him. The ideal situation would be for someone to monitor and identify when a situation started to push an ADDer over their 'limit' and give them the medication only then. But that monitoring isn't always possible, even parents often don't know their child (or ADD) well enough to identify 'when' to step in, and certainly, most children can't identify it in themselves when it is happening. Schools won't give medicines on that premise - because they don't want to be put in the position of making 'medical' decisions. I don't blame them - i wouldn't want to have to make that decision for anyone but myself or my child. and it's a tough call even then. With practice and knowledge, someone who is ADD might learn to know when he needs medication and when he doesn't. Whether we 'remember' to take our meds when something much more interesting is calling us, is a different story - esp with kids. and then there's the 'stimgma' of meds. I'm pretty outspoken, and admitedly have a bit of an 'attitude' about the treatment of people with ADD. many people don't want to admit - even to themselves- that they have a 'mental' problem that requires medication. They fight taking the medication, trying to prove they can do without it. i did, and I still do, sometimes. on some level, it annoys me that i have to adjust to everyone else's idea of 'correct behavior' instead of my own. I mean - ADD behavior never bothers the ADDer - it only bothers you boring normies! (LOL! ;-) ) personally, i don't think ADD is a 'disorder' or whatever you want to label it - it's just a different personality or way of thinking that doesn't fit the 'norm' and since all you 'normies' are in the majority, people try to squish us into a 'normal' mold. society is not very understanding of 'differences' especially those they can't box up nicely and 'fix'. And since there are enough of us with similar 'differences', We've gotten identified, labeled and boxed - but we persist in resisiting being 'fixed!' LOL! Laura

Sometimes i get these goofy ideas...... I used to sew my kids clothes, and it seems to me that something like the fabric on kiddie 'sleeper' feet would work for non-skid. they are little rubber dots on fabric. We also do alot of crafts - craft sweatshirt paints have a 'tacky' touch to them - some brands are 'slicker' than others - the ones with glitter in them might actually have a little 'teeth' to them. Why not get some of these fabric paints and 'dot' or 'stripe' your sleeping pad? It wouldn't add any noticable weight, still waterproof/ airtight - i can't see that it would damage the pad any - and it would probably make it less slippery. what do ya think??? laura

Hops and i are in chat - sat afternoon - come join us!

I'm with Laurie - i think corporations SHOULD help out kids - scouts or any group, in their teaching efforts - after all - these kids are their future employees and owners? But it should be done as a public service. If they want to get a little PR out of it, fine - show the scouts in an ad working on the project, send out a press release - etc. But don't 'take over' the youth group organizations program for your own means. and there should be no limits on what materials, organizations, etc can be used to earn the badge. If Home Depot wants to sponsor 'Home Repair' - that's great - but it should not have an exclusive on the badgework, productw or material. The Challenger Space Center here in town and the Space and Rocket center in Alabama both do Space Exploration and have registered BSA merit badge counselors on staff as part of their programs - but you don't see their names on the badges, and the boys can still earn them on their own or at camp!

We don't have Lowes near us - but i am wondering if the buckets you used are the same as 5 gal paint buckets? I have quite a few of those the boys can use. The lids are pop-off - some are quite tight and others are not so tight - depends on how much of the peal-off seal of the lid was pealed when they were opened. I wonder if the screw-on lids would fit these? (I've had them for years - not only am i a pack-rat - but I had a leaky basement and we used these buckets for storing all Jon's toys - one bucket for legos, one for lincoln logs, etc - I must have a dozen or so of them.)

i don't know if there is a law guaranteeing an education for everyone. but I do know that the law says that every child has the right to THE SAME educational opportunities as his peers. In other words - if Johnny is blind, he has the right to get his textbooks in braille and be taught to read them so that he gets the same opportunity and the same material as any sighted child. the idea is to level the playing field so that they ALL have the same opportunities. What people make of those opportunities is their own choice. my son's school does have a gifted program - they call it Talented Student program (TSP) it is a pull- out program where they do special projects, think outside the box and do extra educational field trips - Like studying archetecture, designing & building models and visiting the Frank Llyod Wright Studio, home and churches in Glenview. they are expected to maintain the classrtoom work they miss while they are out. It interested my son enough to ask for a trip to Talesin this summer up in Wisconsin. Kids can also take advanced courses in jr high and high school - but the take-out program ends in Jr high. No money for a high school version. Expanding his mind 'out of the box' of school - is mainly my job. As for regular school field trips - i am very frustrated with those - what a waste of time. Our schools use field trips as a reward for good behavior - but only a few don't go - and most of those are because they can't aford it - not because the failed the behavior requirements. They go ice skating, roller blading and to Great America. where is the educational value of that???? The choir/band goes downtown for lunch and a matinee live musical each year - 'Cats' and "Joseph" were the last two year's treats. the last week of school - even without snow days - they do NOTHING. at least our field trips were educational - we went to the Field museum to see the working coal mine for social studies and science. the observatory for science. A historical farm, or living history museum, the aquarium, a railroad museum, the zoo, a factory, a conservation park where we mapped a pond, a city newspaper. All were loads of fun - but they also tied in to our lessons and made them real. Now i have to take my son to these things, which I love to do - we have a ball - but it amazes me how many parents DON't - and it amazes me how little these kids get to experience and retain. would it be THAT hard to give them some MEAT with the pap?

Correct me if i'm wrong - but this has been a big issue in our troop - so I think I'm safe in my memory.... i belive in the 'safe swim' and 'safety afloat' guides it says that you do not have to have a lifeguard perform the test - and that the troop may not have to provide lifeguards in a public pool or beach where lifeguards are posted. But you do have to have a lifeguard (red cross or BSA) THERE for anyone who has not yet passed the test or been ranked by ability. If you don't know what level they are yet - you must have a lifeguard - therefore the lifegard is the logical person to conduct the test and sign off. But they 'strongly suggest' that at least one adult planning and participating in the activitiy be BSA lifeguard certified - which is alot more involved than simple Red cross lifeguard requirements.

Lets go back to the original poster - a boy who is ASPL of a dictator troop, the troop activities have become 'boring' and unoriginal, yet he does not want to be the catalyst to change, he just wants to quit. In many ways, I can empathise with this - being that my son and I have been part of turning around such a troop and are STILL working at it. If it can be draining and discouraging for an enthusiastic adult, WITH HELP - how can any of you really expect a discouraged boy to tackle it alone? (I mean - obviously, if the SM won't listen and the other boys, committee and parents are OK with the troop - he's gonna have a very tough job ahead.) there is no 'magic word' that is going to make your folks see it your way. Reading between the lines - I would guess that you all have become entrenched in the argument - you can't give your parents reasons good enough to let you quit, and they can't convince you to stay - because THEY don't know what the program should be, either. They should stir themselves to help you make it better. (sorry - but this IS partly parents fault - they should be RIGHT IN THERE making the troop better - if they are going to insist their son stay in) it's always been my theory that unless you ACT FOR CHANGE, you have no right to complain. (well, at least - not continually whine about stuff) that being said - it's also been my experience that boys tend to exaggerate. We have an SPL who loves scouting, very dedicated - and yet - he can be very negative - LOOKING for reasons new things & ideas won't work before giving them a chance, and not even attempting to make the best of things when things go wrong. he doesn't like change - and when things go wrong - he prefers to suck lemons and dwell on it, rather than make lemonaide and move on. It always amazes me how locked-in to one direction the young can be sometimes! That being said - I would suggest, as someone mentioned that you have a talk with your Dad, or write him a letter. I prefer discussion, but if you talk - I would make an outline of your points for your dad. Make a deal with him - *Your troop sucks. It's no fun. You are not happy. Be specific about what you don't like. Be specific if there is anything you DO like. *these are your options - live with it, fix it, move, quit. *perhaps he could meet you partway? make a deal with him - the deal is open to review at a future specific time - say 6 months - and if change has not occurred, you get to quit or decide to stay. (you MUST give it a true effort - not lip service only)You'll give it another chance (under a time limit)if: -he'll become active and help change your troop -He'll get active and let you move to another troop -he'll let you back off some events and meetings so you can do other ( worthwhile and specific) activities? -He'll let you back off, if you get involved in something else worthwhile, (church? 4H, kiwanis? piano lessons? ;-)) but you remain an official member of the troop until the new activity takes successfull hold. -ideas of your own or combinations of the above Most parents want their boys in because of the values and skills scouts teach - of course, in your opinion, the troop isn't doing that, anyway. If your folk's simply want an Eagle for you - tell them that only YOU can earn it, and you aren't interested. if they persist in pressuring you, you will never BE interested. yet if they let you try it your way - you MIGHT very well decide at a later time that it is worthwhile for you and go back to it. alot of boys take 'breaks'. *be specific about what you want to do with your time if you are NOT in scouting. Wanting to quit because it's 'boring' and you'd rather hang at the mall or play gameboy is not an admirable goal. My son loved scouts. But at age 11, when he started 6th grade and joined a troop - EVERYTHING was hard. Our dog died, grandpa died, he is ADD & school was awful - the teachers were unbelievably hard on him - I fought the school tooth and nail all year. His stepmom and his Dad were abusive and pushy, he had to go with them twice a week and he was miserable; Scouts was just more WORK. he had every night except thursday booked, and he hated it. he wanted to quit. As we got to know the troop, I began to realize that they were not 'delivering the promise' and I got involved. He still wanted to quit. so I offered him a deal. I would not push for badges, advancements, leadership or anything - as long as he stayed in and went on half of the trips and to summercamp. He didn't have to go to any meetings - unless they were planning for a trip he was going to attend. He didn't have to even do badges at camp, but I knew he loved camping and nature - he could just hang out. If in a year, he STILL wanted to quit - he had to pick something else to do ( music lessons, karate, SOMETHING - he's not athletic) but he would be allowed to quit. I was honest, though, and told him that i would probably stay in - I've always loved scouting. he was not involved in other things, really, no sports or other activities and I would not let him just sit home and play computer, playstation and gameboy. A year 'off' of just campouts and no 'work', the school under control, Dad backed off, we adopted another dog, he made friends in the troop, and he regained his enthusiasm. he's 13 and if he had a POR he would be getting his Star now - but he's not that interested in leadership for now - he's got time. He has worked on 7 badges this summer at camp and at home - on his own. HIS CHOICE. there are still some things he chooses NOT to do - fine. he doesn't like caving or long bike trips - we skip those. He likes camping, fishing and canoeing, science and nature, so we DO those. Meetings get boring - he votes with his feet - and goes home. it works for us. maybe it will work for you and your Dad.

sctmom said it - "Each child learns differently. Standard classrooms and teaching methods do not take that into account." you don't have to be ADD to have a different 'learning style', and educators are beginning to realize this. Some Schools are far ahead of others, some people even took it too far - and expected everyone to then learn with the 'new style' - remember when 'open'- no walled classrooms were popular for awhile? the thing is, that every child deserves to be able to learn to the best of THEIR ability - and sometimes it takes both the child and the adults awhile to figure out what works and what doesn't for some kids. As for WHAT they learn - many of us don't think the kids are getting the base of knowledge that earlier generations got - the history, geography, and basic english my mom and even i got in school. Not only do the teachers have to cover a specific 'curriculum' of subjects - but they also have to keep adding more and more things, without really adding the time needed to teach all that stuff. Stuff like gym and Drug & sex education, health, art, Music. The school my mom attended in the 1930's had only 4 rooms and classes were mixed grades. it was common for a given kid to be in third grade reading, but 2nd grade math, etc. They did not have gym class - but they had sports teams. they didn't have music - but they had the church choir and piano lessons (if you could afford them). She was taught firm rules for grammar, methods for mathematics, and science that had totally changed by the time her kids came along. My Brother and sister attended school in the 50's, and i came along in the 60's - the computer class I attended in college involved a huge machine that punched decks of cards.... in 1983! that wasn't so long ago! Now I carry a computer that fits in my pocket and has my entire troops records, a few novels to read and the organization of my entire life in it. Makes you wonder how valuble rote information IS? history will always be history - you can always go back and read and learn about it, when necessary - but science, language, and even geography change so much in one lifetime, that you have to wonder how pertinant that information is. Now the emphasis is on learning HOW to learn - how to glean the most out of what you have access to and how to use it. Resourcefullness, management, organization - all of these are becoming more important than having an encyclopedia or dictionary in your head. As for Schools and scouting - With an ADD/gifted child to deal with, i learned early on to give Jon lots of experiences, let him follow his explorations (while keeping a safety check on them) and let him MOVE. He thinks on his feet - collects and processes information with his entire body - hands, eyes, ears, motion - if he had to 'sit still & listen' - he would not absorb nearly as much as he does. God gave us 5 senses - why would someone try to learn using only sight and sound? when I am out with any of the scouts, or when we have many of them in and out of our home as jon's friends - I try to do this with ALL the boys - let them try and experience as much as possible - rather than sit and watch passively. yeah - they make mistakes - but their interest in anything expands, and they retain so much more that way.

Y'know - after i posted i went and looked at my 'profile' - and it was GONE! i also re-posted, and kept getting an endless looping - for some reason, it kept adding another ''''' every time it 'looped' One thing that stopped it (at least, after two ''s) was to put the curser back in the last field before i clicked 'Accept' - if I left it in the comments field, or any other field, I had problems. When I got back to the starting page -(the 'looped page') instead of clicking 'next' or whatever - i just made another choice off the list. try that and see if it helps

I like the buckets idea - bumped this up for many of us canoeing soon-

i dunno - i use them, and have mine filled out - no problem. I DID run into a problem a couple of months ago where I could get to the 'index' of this board - but could not see any of the posts under each board - i found out, by accident, that a regular 'update' download to my virus scanner Doesn't like something on this site. so when i come here now, i have to disable my virus scanner while here to read and post here. since I'm not truly worried about content 7 virus' on THIS site (LOL!) i just turn it back on when I leave... perhaps somthing like that is interfering with some being able to get thru the profile setup without error messages? what kind of error messages are you getting? i do find the profiles useful - esp when it's helpful to know WHERE in the country people are located - in case someone is looking to do a trip out there. Local information is always better than all the research and brochures you can collect! it just helps, too - to have a kind of idea of the person's background. sometimes from many posts, you get to know someone and can tell if they are joking or not - or what their knowledge base is - sometimes, not. It just helps to make our new friends here more 3-dimensional.

i dunno - i use them, and have mine filled out - no problem. I DID run into a problem a couple of months ago where I could get to the 'index' of this board - but could not see any of the posts under each board - i found out, by accident, that a regular 'update' download to my virus scanner Doesn't like something on this site. so when i come here now, i have to disable my virus scanner while here to read and post here. since I'm not truly worried about content 7 virus' on THIS site (LOL!) i just turn it back on when I leave... perhaps somthing like that is interfering with some being able to get thru the profile setup without error messages? what kind of error messages are you getting? i do find the profiles useful - esp when it's helpful to know WHERE in the country people are located - in case someone is looking to do a trip out there. Local information is always better than all the research and brochures you can collect! it just helps, too - to have a kind of idea of the person's background. sometimes from many posts, you get to know someone and can tell if they are joking or not - or what their knowledge base is - sometimes, not. It just helps to make our new friends here more 3-dimensional.

any chance of a sneak preview of those 'lessons learned'? our troop is heading off in two weeks for it's first (in my experience with this troop) canoe trip weekend, camping out on the sandbars of the Wisconsin river. We could use any tips and suggestions anyone was willing to share. laura

our boys are pretty experienced car campers, some have done backpacking and bicycle trips - but there was always a car or a stop or someplace or someone to 'fix' what was forgotten or needed. the boys that are going all have badges in swimming, canoeing, lifesaving, etc and have done day river trips - and camped overnight at public campgrounds - but not carried their gear to the campsite via canoe. it's going to be a different experience for them we are about to head down the Wisconsin river for two days. No latrines, no water but what we carry - camping on sandbars. some of the boys want to fish and 'catch their own dinner'. It seems a good 'starter' trip to try out our skills - we figure we can live through almost anything for just two days - right? we're really excited about this trip - but also looking for any hints or suggestions some of you 'salted pros' can share. What kind of equipment have you found indespensable on a trip like this? What can you definately live without? what little hints make the difference between necessity alone and comfort? suggestions for inexpensive waterproof packing? Ziplocks, i know - but what about sleeping bags? Garbage bags would tear up too easy.... i was thinking of taking rubbermaid totes instead of our wooden 'pack' patrol boxes - we just don't need all that 'stuff'. if we pack stuff in garbage bags, tied shut INSIDE the totes and tie them into the canoes - so you think they'll stay dry unless we completely dump and flood? lots of watertite equipment isn't in the budget for this - our first trip. Alot is weighing on the sucess of this trip though - if it's good - we will do more like it - if not, we'll probably stick with car camping for awhile. BOR-ing! any good ideas to share?

To the person whose kid came home from first year camp with a grape juice stain - yeah - grape juice stains - whatever happened to NAPKINS? or hand-washing? At camp we always have a day for washing - few boys can get through the week without wearing some of their dinner on their shirts... If they're that bad, a leader will point it out and suggest washing it out that night. Someday he's gonna have to do his own laundry - might as well learn now! It REALLY helps if the boys wear a t-shirt under the uniform shirt - they smell better and stay cleaner - because immediately after the meal, they can take it off. It also helps ALOT if the troop makes a place to hang shirts (from plastic hangers) in camp. Belive me - alot of that crud isn't food - it's the dirt STUCK to the food from scrubbing it around camp! Recently, my 13 yr old has started washing ALL his own shirts. I'm tired of pre-treating them and washing them 2-3 time to get the food stains out. I figure if HE has to do it - maybe he'll learn not to be such a slob when he eats! As for the sashes being too big - there's a real simple solution to it. ONE seam - at the shoulder - just tuck it up and inch or two and DON'T cut it off. Start sewing the Badges on in the middle and work outwards - a row below, a row above. My son likes to run the Eagle required ones down the center... When they get a little taller - just pull the seam at the shoulder and the sash is now longer and you don't have to re-sew the badges! Another very easy sewing tip - with active boys - esp if the sash is a little large - the sashes slip off their shoulder. So take a small piece of heavy thread or a very thin ribbon and sew a tiny loop opn the edge toward the neck - at the top where the sash meets the shoulder seam of the shirt. Sew a tiny button on the shirt where the collar meets the shoulder seam. the button is hidden just under the collar. the loop on the sash goes over the button - no more slide off sash! I've always worn some kind of olive green pants (non-scout) with my uniform shirt - I'm heavy, tall, hard to fit and the uniform pants in my size are very pricey. and they don't fit well (they are very short waisted for me) But this year, my 'scout' pants were shot and i couldn't find any store ones in the right color that would work, either. So I bought the uniform pants - and altered them to fit - they're still short in the waist. Again - sewing is a very useful skill. While i was stiching, i decided to take those enormously long pant's legs and turn my uniform pants into zip offs. Doing that was very easy - and now - for the price of the pants and two separating zippers - I have both winter and summer uniforms. the fabric is less breathable than denim - but lighter - I can live with it. As for the uniforms wear - I've been to summer camp every year, and on almost all of our packs & troops campouts and activities. i bought a long sleeved shirt in 1996 and wore it to everything, and I got a short sleeved one in 2000 - wear it only in the summer (I prefer the long sleeved) no special treatment - washer, dryer - i only ever ironed it for the funeral of a scouter friend. It still looks great. my son has had 3 uniform shirts so far - this one should last thru the end - maybe. If not - is sewing THAT much of a chore? laura

Not to be snotty or anything - but i'd LOVE to be part of a troop that has 6 or 7 adults along to take different responsibilities, and have an SPL that acted like an adult - but we don't have that - we had two leaders at camp with 21 boys - 18 of which were first-timers at that camp, and about 10 were not yet tenderfoot. all were 14 or younger and we had other pressing problems (see my post on Hazing at camp) Even if things HAD gone smoothly, no rain, no sick kids, no cooking badge that took most of our older boys away at mealtimes and meeting times - i don't see how an adult can take BSA lifeguard during ALL the program time at camp - unless they have enough adults that they really don't need that leader there in the first place. our troop has never had that luxury of too many adults. If we want to get there, we have to provide fun opportunities for the boys to learn leadership skills, and in order to provide those opportunities, we have to have trained people in the troop. We had ONE boy who tried to get it at camp - but he got sick on thurs and was out for the day - so he was unable to get the whole thing. so i guess I'll be looking for it for both of us - for him to finish, if he chooses, and for me to see if i can do it.

on a related topic - I am really dissapointed in my troop - looking for the 'easy' way - we went to two camps this summer. One out of council - a great camp, with an open merit-badge program (for the most part) and loads of opportunities & badges not offered by our council camps. It was a large camp - with about a mile and a half from our site to the waterfront - about 3/4 of a mile from our site to the main office/ trading post/ dining tent. Because of the distances, we took our bikes. The campsites are still very natural -and far enought apart to feel like you'r not there with 500 - 700 kids -they have improvements like latrines, fire scars and bulliten boards. Program was a little disorganized - because the counselors were truly running their program and they had a new director. It rained a little every day - but not bad after the first day. the second camp belongs to our council. it is very regimented - every badge has to be signed up for and it is obviously very adult run. there's a schedule for everything and hasn't changed in 15 yrs or more. the camp is small in size - with platform tent sites on top of 'suicide hill' a big hill and all the activity areas located in an area about as big as your average city park. they have a swimming pool for swimming - but their boating 'waterfront' is a man made, 12' deep, dammed up wading stream. If they can get three canoes across that 'lake' I'd be very surprized. the camp was manicured and trimmed like a formal garden. Can you tell I prefer the bigger, wilder camp? Well, the boys prefer the smaller one - they didn't have to walk as far, everything was done for them. I will admit that the food was MUCH better at our council's camp - but i just can't shake the feeling that the boys are being lazy. I'm admitedly overweight, 43 - and not in great shape - The only excercise i get is maybe walking the (overweight)dog around the block once a week. I couldn't take the hills on my bike - my knees hurt too much after the 2nd day - and the walking required was really tough for me - but not that bad. I really enjoyed the camp - it was beautiful, the lake was awesome, and there were TONS of things to do. yet most of the boys prefer that spoon fed, baby park. I just don't get it.

relating to the 'safe swim' thread is there a way for an ADULT to become BSA lifeguard certified without taking the course at camp? I have never heard of our council or district offering it outside of camp, and at camp the adults are too busy to spend the entire week doing it. any ideas?

it was late - my mind was foggy.... The older son, "John" is a red cross lifeguard and has worked at our city pool since he was 16. He also has his BSA lifeguard certification, Swimming, life saving, first aid, canoing, whitewater, sailing, motorboating and rowing badges. He went to a local Jr college and was available to lifeguard for the troop at local events in local swimming pools - where there were also Safety Afloat and Safe Swim certified adults, sometimes parents with Red Cross Cert. and adults who had medical and nursing training. In town - we really had it covered! LOL! Problem is - many of these non- BSA trained adults don't camp - and a river in a canoe is more dangerous than a city pool. All of the 'camping' Adults have taken Safe Swim and Safety Afloat - all are strong swimmers, and most have canoeing experience. the younger brother - "Joe" is a mature & responsible 14 yr old boy who also had many of the swimming and boating badges, lots of troop and family canoe experiences, and he just earned his BSA lifeguard at summer camp last week. the point i was trying to make is that despite their training - I would never want to put the sole responsibility of the safety of the whole troop on the shoulders of a boy. Even if he has the training and leads the outing WITH that training - I would want adults along to support him. Adults with as much training as they are capable of. (i would LOVE to get BSA lifeguard certified - but I simply don't have the stamina and athletic ability for it - Also, as one of the few adults who DO go to camp - i can't spend my entire week working on it - I have to be available for all the boys in my troop) My fear is for the boy doing the lifeguarding. If an accident SHOULD happen, and he is not able to stop it or rescue the person - especially a non-swimmer boy - I don't want him to have that responsibility of an injured or killed troopmate on his conscience. with boys who ARE swimmers, and have some experience in dumping a canoe and canoing skills - hopefully they are not as prone to danger and panic as a non-swimmer. It always surprizes me that some parents want their boy to 'participate' in everything, and even though THEY don't go with their untrained child - they expect the other troop boys and adults to provide protection for them. They think I should put my son or some other swimmer boy in a canoe with theirs to protect their beginner. When I think of some of the impulsive, beginner new scouts we have in our troop and others - I think we have to set the bar for participation higher than the BSA minimum. Is that clearer?

One of our boys got his BSA lifeguard at camp this summer. His family are avid canoe campers, his older brother, an Eagle scout with our troop, has been a lifegard and acted as our BSA lifeguard for the past couple of years at the HS pool swimming events. We are really glad this boy, who is only 14, is taking this training, too - as his brother is now off at college. However. If he were my son, despite his training, I would not want to make him the totaly responsible "lifeguard" on a canoe trip. would you? My son, age 13, IS a strong swimmer and canoer. If he were in a canoe that tipped in a river, and was conscious - i am sure he would handle himself well. but i would not want to put the responsibility of another child - a non-swimmer or beginner on his shoulders. We have a non-swimmer in our troop who is mentally handicapped - he knows how to swim but is afraid to let go of the side or not touch bottom. But he is 15 and bigger than either of the boys mentioned above. If he tipped in a canoe, he might very well panic and endanger them all. I would not want to face losing or hurting ANY of the boys, or explaining an accident to their parents, because we had to push the envelope of the rules to make the trip happen. I'd rather be the meanie who said 'no' to a trip with an unaceptable risk. Our trips are limited to those who have passed their BSA swimmer test, & have some of the following: experience canoing with the troop on flatwater demonstrating knowledge of rules and safety, & have their swimming, canoeing or lifesaving badges. WE STRONGLY encourage a parent to accompany a boy with little experience, even if he is a swimmer. We get parents all the time who want their boys to go on canoe trips, but if the boy can't pass the swimming test and the parents don't want to go on the trips with them, then they can't go.